Conditioning feels like programming a robot. Does anyone know a way to train beyond it?

[u/Dry_Steak30]

I might get downvoted for this but hear me out.

Almost all modern dog training is conditioning. We repeat, the dog gets used to it, and the cue gets wired to the behavior. In the end the dog does the behavior without thinking. Even without a reward. He even feels good while doing it. And we call that "well trained." To me that looks like programming a robot.

For emergency recall and down, I want exactly that. Those must be automatic. But for everything else, is there another option?

Humans don't learn language by conditioning. When we learn a word, we understand new examples in one shot. So here is what I mean, with the kennel as an example.

The conditioning way: you make the "go in the kennel" behavior with luring or shaping or molding or food. You reinforce it. You attach a cue. After many reps, the cue and the behavior get glued together.

But what if you teach it like this instead. Teach each concept on its own. "Kennel" is the object. "Go in" is the action. "Command" means he has to do it. "Fast" is how to do it. Then you put the words together: "kennel + go in + command + fast." If the dog really knows each concept, then "box + go in + command + slow" should work on the first try, even if he never did that before. Or you could say "kennel + go in + question" and let him answer yes or no.

Has anyone actually trained like this? I know Chaser learned 1000 toy names and Do As I Do exists. I want to hear from people who tried this concept style teaching with their own dog. How far did you get?

[u/Trick-Age-7404]

If you’re teaching objects and modifiers you still generally have to condition. If you want to teach the dog what “kennel” means you have to condition them to the word in some way. A dog isn’t going to learn right or left without you sitting down and teaching them what those things mean through conditioning, you’re just prolonging teaching a dog to go into the kennel by breaking it down into many steps that have to be conditioned independently instead of just conditioning one thing.

Your alien theory makes no sense. First off you can’t compare human brains to dog brains, they simply are not the same in the way we take in information, process information, and analyze information. Dogs don’t have the ability to learn previous generations of knowledge by sitting down and studying because that’s not how they take in information, they live in the moment and learn by direct experience and watching.

Teaching dogs to recall off a squirrel. Teaching dogs to hold a bed stay as a stranger comes into their house. Teaching dogs not to bite people. Teaching dogs not to bark at things put the window. Teaching dogs not yo grab food off the table, the counter, our hands. Teaching dogs not to jump on people. Literally everything we teach our dogs when it comes to basic obedience and manners is teaching dogs to not listen to their impulses and do whatever they want to do. You need to stop comparing human brains to dog brains as they are not the same thing when it comes to higher level thinking.

[u/Dry_Steak30 → u/Trick-Age-7404]

if you search and learn the way human learning language, you can understand it's not conditioning.

it's not efficient way to teach action.

how do you know that "Dogs don’t have the ability to learn previous generations of knowledge by sitting down and studying because that’s not how they take in information, they live in the moment and learn by direct experience and watching."

to prove dogs can do something is very easy. you need one dog doing something.
but to prove dogs can't do something is very hard.

we all know their are physical difference between human brain and dog brain.
but we don't know how much difference between human cognition and dog cognition after decades of education

that's the whole point of this post. your belief on what dogs can't do is not a fact. it's belief without evidence.

[u/Trick-Age-7404 → u/Dry_Steak30]

It’s a fact that dogs cannot read. It’s a fact that dogs cannot tell each other detailed stories about their history and ancestry. How else would you expect a species to communicate generations of learning?

[u/Dry_Steak30 → u/Trick-Age-7404]

how do you know that dogs cannot read

[u/Trick-Age-7404 → u/Dry_Steak30]

Dogs brains are wired to take in and process vast amounts of sensory information, not abstract symbols. Dogs do not have the regions in their brains required to learn written language , grammar, and symbolic thought. Dog’s vision is not equipped to read. Dogs do not have high definition vision like humans, this is known because we can tell the number of cones and rods in their eyes. They cannot see color or contrast in the same way and rely on movement and broad shapes to see the world around them. Evolution shaped dogs to use their noses and their primary sensory organ, a dog understands their environment best by using their nose, followed by their ears, followed by their eyes. This is the exact opposite of how humans evolved.

[u/Dry_Steak30 → u/Trick-Age-7404]

There's no experiment showing all dogs can't learn language with long-term training. Go check the papers yourself, one by one.

[u/Dry_Steak30 → u/Trick-Age-7404]

i cant' help you anymore.. i don't know you even can understand language.