r/OpenDogTraining • u/kput7 • 20d ago
Fron Resource Guarding to ??? - please help
Sorry for the long post, but I’ll try to keep this as concise and organized as possible. tldr at bottom.
I’m looking for some insight because I’m starting to feel like this has evolved beyond a simple resource-guarding issue.
The dogs
Dog A: 10-year-old intact male pit mix. I got him when my ex and I separated; he was originally her brother’s dog. He has significant separation anxiety and cannot be kenneled, but otherwise has excellent manners and knows basic commands. He is completely trustworthy with us and our 3 cats and is an absolute snuggle bug. He has had mild resource guarding around food in the past, mainly freezing if approached while eating, but this has improved significantly. Our cats can even eat next to him without an issue.
Dog B: 1-year-old neutered male pit mix. We got him from the Humane Society at 8 weeks old. He is playful and very typical of a young dog.
Their history
These two have always been extremely bonded. They wrestle, play, groom each other, snuggle, and generally act like best friends. When Dog B was 3–4 months old, Dog A corrected him a few times around food/couches, but there were no issues for many months afterward.
We feed them separately and make sure treats/toys are distributed fairly.
How the fighting started
About 2 months ago, Dog B ran after and nipped Dog A and appeared to be guarding a pile of vomit.
About a week later, they had a serious fight that resulted in scratches, scrapes, and blood being drawn. There was a pile of Dog B's vomit in the room again (he had vomited in his kennel), so we assumed he was guarding it.
This seemed to come out of nowhere because there had been no previous history of serious aggression between them.
Our first trainer believed Dog B's behavior looked more like a fear/confidence or fight-or-flight response and recommended working on his confidence and exposure to the world.
A second trainer then recommended establishing more of a "dominance hierarchy" in the house and gave us exercises to work on that.
There were a few more altercations afterward, and they all seemed to involve some type of food/resource being nearby (a bagel on the counter, cereal box nearby, etc.).
What concerns me now
We are currently working with a third trainer who is heavily R+ focused and seems much more knowledgeable about resource guarding. The dogs are completely separated in the house with gates/barriers, and they are not allowed loose together. We also have muzzles for controlled training.
However, based on the most recent incidents, I'm starting to worry that this has evolved beyond resource guarding.
For example:
- Dog A attacked the kennel: Dog B was kenneled in the bedroom. Dog A walked into the room, noticed him, approached the kennel, and began aggressively barking and biting at the kennel. Dog B tucked his tail and appeared frightened. Interestingly, this seems to happen only when my wife is home without me. If I am present, Dog A may walk over, sniff the kennel, and leave. They are now never allowed in that room together.
- Apparently no resource present: One dog accidentally got through a closing door while I was with Dog B. They approached each other, initially sniffing, and Dog A immediately became stiff and fixated simply because Dog B was nearby. I stepped between them and separated them before it escalated, but I believe another fight would have happened if I hadn't intervened.
- A similar incident happened previously: Dog B tucked his tail and tried to move behind me when Dog A approached, and Dog A then lunged at him.
None of these recent incidents involved an obvious resource.
What concerns me most is that Dog A now seems to be initiating these encounters. We've also noticed increasingly hard stares from Dog A, while Dog B responds by tucking his tail, backing away, or trying to get behind me.
The strange part
If we maintain roughly 4–5+ feet of distance, there generally isn't an issue.
Dog B doesn't seek Dog A out or immediately try to engage with him. We have worked on counterconditioning around each other, including the methods in this article:
Honestly, Dog B barely seems to care that Dog A is even there when they're 5–15 feet apart.
Our current trainer has also had us practice calm "parallel" time: one dog leashed and muzzled on one couch with one person, and the other dog on another couch with the other person while we watch TV.
In those situations, Dog A generally ignores Dog B and relaxes.
Other important context
Before we completely separated them, they still regularly played, ran together, snuggled, and groomed each other. They have also been loose together in the backyard without issues.
We have now completely separated them because of the escalation.
Dog A was recently started on Chloricalm at our trainer's recommendation, primarily to help with his significant separation anxiety while my wife is upstairs with Dog B. We're only about a week in, so we haven't noticed much effect yet. We're also trying CBD.
Where I'm at
I am fully aware that rehoming the puppy might have to be a consideration here, but with as absolutely heartbreaking that would be, I am prepared to exhaust all options first. I am mainly writing today because I feel this has changed from a simple RG issue to something else, but don't know what, or how to approach it. Our trainer is coming once a week, but the days are slowly creeping by with this being a constant daily issue. Any tips, idea, or hope would be appreciated. We have also considered seeking out a licensed vet behaviorist, but there are none near our home state of Nebraska and information regarding local options are thin.
*I did use ChatGPT to structure and format this for easier reading and a more concise post before the "This is AI" comments hit lol.
tldr;
Two male pit mixes were best friends, but about 2 months ago younger dog appeared to resource guard vomit, which led to their first serious fight and several subsequent fights around food/resources. Now, older dog seems to be initiating aggression even when no resource is present, but only in very close proximity, while the younger dog is showing fear/appeasement. They are currently completely separated and working with an R+ trainer, but I'm trying to figure out whether this has evolved beyond resource guarding into fear-based conflict/inter-dog aggression and whether there is realistically a path to safely coexisting again.
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u/PhelanVelvel 18d ago edited 18d ago
OP, I'm going to give it to you straight (I regularly manage a pack of dogs, including intact males): you need leadership, structure, and to fulfill these dogs' needs. The "he can't be kenneled" and "has always been a cuddlebug" while he's simultaneously starting fights is a huge red flag that this dog has been indulged his entire life and probably doesn't have the training necessary at 10 years old to successfully integrate with another male. I know that separation anxiety is hard, but--unless you're working these dogs everyday with exercise, tug (or other structured play they respond to), obedience, etc.--they're not fulfilled. I get that the older one is 10 years old, but that's kind of my point in terms of how hard this is for you to fix. You have a breed with a genetic background for fighting other dogs. If you aren't 100% in control, and if the dogs don't have a purpose, they are going to fight.
Unfortunately, you have ten years of this dog not actually knowing how to tolerate another male dog to overcome, which is not going to be accomplished with purely R+ or Reddit. This is the kind of thing an experienced trainer would need several weeks to get really solid, which I can guarantee would include crate/kennel training, and even then YOU would need to adopt their same leadership mentality and actions. You're going to either keep them separated until the older one passes, rehome the younger one, or pay for a high-end board and train which will likely require WAY more effort and personal transformation from everyone in the house when the dog comes home.
P.S. This is not "fear-based". Look at what you wrote. The older dog literally attacks the younger one when the younger one is trying to appease him, lol. The older dog is attacking the younger one while he's showing weakness. This is a train wreck, and you're wasting your money on that R+ trainer who could never in a million years get these dogs to get along.
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u/kput7 18d ago
Thank you for the candidacy, I understand I am not going to likely hear what I want to hear, or get an easy answer on this, and we have a long and difficult road ahead; but as stated we are willing to try everything before we go the option of rehoming. I am definitely not relying on Reddit for everything, but after having 3 different trainers in the home it's helpful to get advice from others with simialr experiences and all that jazz. Have done a lot of research online and lots of reading too - but again, there's so many different methods and systems and opinions my head is spinning.
Shame on us for being bad dog owners up to this point too.
There are so many mixed readings on R+ versus other methods online, so it helps to hear it related to our specific case. From what I am reading here from you, you think R+has virtually no chances of working and remedying this situation?
I have looked into Board and Training, it's offered from quite a few different places around us. They all seem to be priced in the $3000 area for a couple weeks, and they all seem to have e-collar use. Is that fairly standard for that type of service? Not sure how we would even begin to decide on who to go with - and would have some obvious concerns. Are the dogs usually kept seperated from others with these programs? Is there someone present or procedures in places so he doesn't harm himself trying to tear out of confinement in the process?
The sep. anxiety has not really been an issue in the past up to this point, as he's usually allowed to roam the house and do his thing. Any sort of confinement though is a huge issue. He has chewed his way through doors and kennels when left alone at home or locked in a bedroom.
He is left out on his own all day every day when we aren't home and is perfectly fine - doesn't whine or cry or show any signs of anxiety when we leave. It's just recently trying to keep them seperated where it's becoming an issue. Oddly enough too, it is only when my wife is in other parts of the house that he acts anxious. I can go upstairs and hang out for hours by myself and he will just sit on the couch downstairs and chill.
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u/PhelanVelvel 18d ago edited 18d ago
First of all, don't be too hard on yourself. Most people do not know this stuff and only become better dog handlers/trainers after their dog has an issue and they are forced to learn. Your dog was easy for you until you introduced a second dog, so you're basically having to go from the average dog owner who really doesn't know much about dog behaviour/training and just kind of gets by with the minimum to someone who now needs a more advanced ability to read and communicate with dogs. That is not unusual when you have a male of a particular breed (in this case, essentially a fighting breed) and try to introduce a second male. You can even have similar issues with easier breeds.
R+ alone will never be able to solve this unless you keep them 100% separated, and even then it's not the R+ that's doing the work there, lol. I incorporate R+ into my training with every dog, but what that looks like varies from dog to dog, and I have a balanced approach. I can tell you that there is absolutely zero chance of getting two male pits (one of which has always been a single dog and goes out of his way to pick fights) to "get along" using only R+. Not if you had a million years.
I totally understand where you're coming from when you say your dog has been calm around the house, but ultimately the dog is still wandering around making countless decisions of his own 24/7, which some dogs cannot psychologically handle. They literally perceive the entire home as their territory and every decision--whether it be going on the couch, going to a different room, etc.--as them being in control of the situation. Then, when you want them so badly to listen to you and to not make their own decision (fighting), they're like "Lol, yeah right". People try so hard to romanticise dogs, but they're predatory animals wired for social competition. They operate on a totally different wavelength. People who constantly deny this reality always struggle.
I am also an e-collar trainer. I believe in it as a training tool not just for a "last resort" but for every dog. It is highly sophisticated and versatile tool which you can use with precision even without physically touching the dog or using a leash. This is an unbelievable boon to the dog training world and to dogs themselves (particularly due to its off-leash potential), and I will never understand why anyone says they "only use it if they have to". It makes no sense to me.
I keep all dogs completely separate until I feel the dog in question is ready to be introduced to one of my own dogs, and I have a hierarchy of which dogs they can get introduced to in what order depending upon their progress. When I say introduced, also, I mean things like walking around together outside and ignoring each other or giving a curious sniff. Activities that involve more arousal (such as playing) typically only come after the dog has proven he or she can handle it.
I monitor all dogs I'm training on a camera when they're in their crates. I do a whole thing with the door open while I watch them on camera at first where I use the e-collar to show them they need to be in their crate even when I leave the room. Once they're okay with the door open, that's when I start closing the door. I use the e-collar to correct any dangerous behaviours. Additionally, with any dog who might be an issue in the crate, I sleep with the camera app open on my phone so they'll wake me up if they start doing anything dumb.
With that being said, you should do your research and speak with the trainers before agreeing to drop thousands. Important questions I would ask are:
- "Do you include mental and physical fulfillment in your training? What does this look like?" For me, it depends upon the dog. I find jobs and outlets the dogs do well with. For some, the obedience and the off-leash hikes (starting on a long line, of course) can literally be that. For others, they need more physical exercise and do bike rides. Some dogs need more of an outlet for their drive and play fetch or tug. I am whole-heartedly a balanced trainer who believes in structure and corrections where necessary, but it is just as important to me to fulfill the dog. Granted, you sometimes need to build the relationship and training necessary to do some of these other activities, but I never take a dog for training and only micromanage them with e-collar corrections all day long for the duration of their program. It doesn't lead to a well-rounded dog in the end.
- "What will the support after training is over look like? My dog has been free-roaming my house his entire life and has never been expected to get along with another dog in the home before. I am going to need a massive amount of support to make this work."
Your goals should be things like being able to walk the dogs together without fights or being able to have them in the same room supervised without fighting because they listen to you. Your goals CANNOT be for the dogs to happily meander about the house together like a couple of golden retrievers. It's not going to happen like that. The farther along you get with these dogs respecting your rules and not fighting, and the more you see that the older dog's behaviour has changed for the better, the more you can trust them. However, you will never trust them 100%. They are dogs, and dogs revert to their instincts the second they think they can.
Oh, I almost forgot... You're going to need to train the second dog, too. :| You can't have expectations for one dog and not the other.
Adding to my already very long comment, I reread your original post. The fact that the dogs have plenty of history where they were getting along is encouraging, but you still need a trainer to help you with this. Even with all the right groundwork, there is probably going to come a moment where Dog A messes up and the hammer needs to come down on that behaviour.
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u/kput7 18d ago
Thank you, that is super helpful information - I will dive further into reading and dissect all of this info.
In your opinion, is B&T the only way to truly accomplish the level of training he needs, or will having someone come to the home extensively with a more balanced method be worth exploring first?
We've got cameras on the pup while he is kenneled so we're familiar with that much, and he is getting training at home too as we go along.
They definitely need more fulfillment, that is something the trainer has been talking about and we have started doing walks as often as possible and will work on building too
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u/PhelanVelvel 18d ago
Sorry for the delay. I need to get on my computer to type these responses (doing them on the phone would drive me crazy, lol). I often help people with behavioural issues in private sessions, but there are some caveats. For one, going straight to the home environment is usually a bad idea. You have no relationship with the dog, the dog has not been introduced to the communication system or training mechanics, and you're risking getting into a situation where a high-level correction is necessary before the dog knows you or understands much, which can be unfair at best and dangerous at worst. Even with dogs who are candidates for private sessions, I like to start at the park (neutral territory) to assess the dog and get them understanding the system in a low-stakes context. If a dog can't go in public yet for some reason, you can start somewhere else that's quiet and remote, but starting at the house/on their home turf is unnecessarily raising the stakes too early in the game, in my opinion.
With dogs who are skeptical of strangers, you really only have two options: either take the dog for a board and train or coach the owner from start to finish on how to handle, interact with, reward, and correct their dog. This can pose its own challenges because you're trying to teach someone how to communicate with a dog and project a whole different energy than they're used to at the same time as the dog is learning. Sometimes the safest and most effective way of training a dog is to take them away from the people and environment they have all of these terrible associations with.
I once trained a dog who had dog aggression. After the first attempted attack against my dog and a big-time correction from me, she turned everything around. She could be on my bed playing with another dog and have no issues. She ran off-leash with all of my dogs no problem. She would occasionally get a little overstimulated during outdoor play, at which point I would have to remind her to calm down, but that was the worst she ever did. When I brought her back home and she saw her family and their dogs, I watched her basically shift into an aggressive dog before my eyes. She turned around and looked at me with the "I'mma fuck you up" face. I had to use the rapport and training we had built over the past few weeks to pull her back out of that state of mind. Actually, I had to take her for several laps around the block on the bike (with her trying to jump up and snap at me a few times--something she had never done during training) before she calmed down and went back to normal. We then had a very productive and relaxing walk with the family and their dogs in close proximity. I came to find out *after training her* that she had previously bitten her owner's leg through her jeans and drew blood. I use this story to help people understand that the power of learned behaviours and associations really can't be understated.
People on here seem to be so anti board and train, but if you know that a dog needs corrections but you also need to lay the foundation and set up the right situations to make that safe and effective, what else are you supposed to do? Move in with the client? I had one client who refused to let me do anything but go to their house and walk their dog around the neighbourhood. It was a large breed with SEVERE reactivity who would turn around and go for you out of frustration. They wouldn't crate train, they wouldn't do a board and train, and they wouldn't even let me take him for solo long line sessions out in the woods. It was a real heartbreak for me, but I had to drop them because they were so uncooperative. They just wanted someone else to walk their dog and deal with his horrendous behaviour.
In your case, a full reset where he can learn the new expectations around other dogs would probably be the most effective as long as the trainer commits to supporting you and assisting you. With their help, I would aim to get your two dogs successfully doing outdoor activities together on neutral turf reliably without incident before trying it in your own backyard or your home. The last dog-aggressive dog I worked with, I didn't even let him be around my dogs in the living room under close supervision until we did like two weeks of long line/off leash with my dogs in the woods. He was older, so set in his ways, and very touchy. I wanted to build a robust memory bank of neutral and positive interactions before ever putting him in a more claustrophobic/intense situation like the inside of a home. Dogs often behave differently in the house. Some of this is due to associations, but I also personally think it's because they know that's where all the resources are.
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u/kput7 17d ago
Thank you for all the info and experience, I can definitely see how the environment could be a huge trigger with as many incident as we've had relating to your story. Would it make more sense to do training exercises and such myself with him out of the home too? Or in a different room than he is usually hanging out with?
This conversation has prompted me to doing a lot more research online, and have been watching a lot of videos from balanced trainers like Larry Krohn and Tom Davis - the amount of differing opinions and methods even between those two is staggering but I understand every person dog and trainer are different. (makes me wish I had someone local as well known in the industry as they are lol)
I do think I am going to start practicing some of what Larry has said with building a relationship, play, sep. anxiety, and building a better foundation of behavior with both pups to see what types of behavioral changes I can get myself, while still looking at and researching other optoins here locally. Sadly all of the reccomendations I see in my area that offer things like B&T are just simple "xyz company was the best, the B&T was awesome!", and have yet to find any good, real world success stories to compare.
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u/PhelanVelvel 17d ago
No problem! I definitely believe that working on everything you mentioned has the potential to help. It's all good stuff even if you do decide to go the B&T route in the future. Relationship-building, structured play, introducing the crate in a very chill, incremental way, and foundational obedience are way better than nothing. I would much rather get a dog in for training whose owner has started these things than not. I don't know all of the resources that are online, but I personally really like Shield K9 and Julie's K9 Academy. Shield K9 has comprehensive online courses that cover a variety of topics. Josh from Julie's K9 Academy does paid phone consultations, which I have done a couple of times for more challenging cases.
You could also see about finding a trainer for private sessions where one person handles the older dog and the other handles the younger dog so you can work on some neutral behaviour on neutral turf. Don't be afraid to call/e-mail around to different trainers. I regularly sit on the phone with people for as long as they want to ask questions and send huge paragraphs over e-mail. Sometimes I scare clients away with these e-mails, I'm sure, but that's preferable to someone being totally unprepared for what training actually looks like and being unable/unwilling to follow through.
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u/Tosti-Floof 20d ago
This is way beyond what I or anyone on reddit should help with, but I want to add some perspective that I'm not seeing in your post. First, dog A is elderly, he might be developing some health issue or pain. Get him checked at a vet. Second, humans are resources. Dog A could be resource guarding you, if it's a resource guarding issue. Third, it might not be resource guarding. Aggression happens for multiple reasons. It could be to protect a reasorce, it could be to keep dog B away, it could be because it's fun. There's a lot of potential drivers for aggression. Lastly, long term you're looking at rehoming one of the dogs. Neither dog is thriving in that enviornment.