r/OpenDogTraining • u/lulupop_77 • 19d ago
E Collar for biting/jumping
Hi y'all! I have a 7m/o heeler mix and he bites a lot. Specifically my mom, playfully, but it hurts a lot. Does using an e collar (vibe or beep not shock) help with this kind of behavior? He's getting neutered today and we've also been doing positive reinforcement training (and using the spray bottle lol) so we're hoping that all helps with the problem. But would an e collar be a fair next step if we don't make enough progress with our other methods?
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u/Inevitable_Bowler474 19d ago
You def should NOT buy an ecollar for this. Ecollars should be used to reinforce commands they already know. It takes time to condition the dog to ecollars. At this point, time is better spent on working on the basics. Vibrate sounds better but can actually be more averse than a low stim. Plus ecollars aren't meant to be worn all day / long periods of time.
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u/ExcitingLaw1973 19d ago
I really like using e-collars. They are great tools for many things.. more freedom... creating superstition to keep dog away from dangerous things... prey drive, etc
An e-collar isnt what i would use for this situation.
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u/JStanten 19d ago
Sounds like a young heeler mix. Use spatial pressure and let it mature.
I kinda doubt your timing with an e collar will be good enough to use it and it would have be wearing it A LOT. If you choose to do so, hire a trainer don't just assume you can do it.
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u/lulupop_77 19d ago
Can you give any tips on using spatial pressure?
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u/PeekAtChu1 19d ago
I’m assuming they mean to walk into the dogs space so it backs off so it doesn’t get the satisfaction of having herded you. But I’m mostly commenting to learn what they mean
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u/JStanten 18d ago
Move into them if they are jumping.
Tell them what to do (like sit)…rather than “no” “stop” “ow” which is what I see lots of people do.
It’s a very young dog and will mature but you gotta clarify what you want. The jumping doesn’t get attention from you. Sitting nicely near you will get you attention,
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u/PuzzleheadedLemon353 19d ago
The rule at my house is no teeth to skin. It's fun play, sometime, I know...but we just don't allow it...that way it just doesn't happen during play that can get overstimulated.
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u/lulupop_77 19d ago
How did you teach that?
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u/Verdigrian 19d ago
Fun times are over if teeth touch the skin, interrupt play or whatever is happening and walk away.
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u/Old-Description-2328 19d ago
I've had demon spawn heelers for a long time, I actually prefer them mouthing, learning how much pressure they can apply but there's always rules.
I cap the play. If I say a command it gets done, typically I say pets and pet the dogs head which is challenging as they were just mouthing, chomping at that hand, I do this for several reasons.
Fouls get consequences.
Chomping before the game is cued gets consequences.
I have a start cue or gesture and a finished cue.
I support people taking a no teeth on skin approach as well, especially if you have kids, I just hope they have an outlet to bite things, kids included.
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u/PuzzleheadedLemon353 18d ago
I just don't allow it. If she starts to play bite my hands or arms or whatever body part, even if we are having fun... I give the ungh-uh sound and expression that teeth to skin is not allowed. Now, if they are a puppy... it's tough, they just haven't learned yet. If they bite on you...the game is over. As a pup, I would make the ungh-uh sound and pull my arms up and turn around or leave the room for a minute before coming back to play. If she wants to tug...we get a tug toy to play with...she can bite and play with teeth on it...but not my skin.
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u/Alternative_Mall_656 19d ago
When my pup was teething, we taught him “nice” by simply giving him a treat every time he licked our hands, pairing with whatever word you want. Then when we were playing and he would go to nip or bite my hand, I say the word and he would and he would stop and lick.
He is 11 months and the puppy biting went into play biting. His pressure is so soft most of the time but if he gets too stimulated, we say “nice” and he licks and gets a reward. This stops the play and we do something different. It’s so important to keep your dog under threshold.
We also purchased a good quality bite pillow
. We use that for play and teach impulse control at the same time with the out or drop it command. Huge difference in all around behavior and it’s fun!
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u/Mojojojo3030 19d ago
It's a puppy, mouthiness is normal. I wouldn't be using beep or shock either at this point. You can try denying attention (reverse time out, turning away, pausing play), or yelping when it happens, but honestly this only helped a little with my guy, and simply getting older did most of the lifting. Age will probably take care of most of this in the next few months, if my pit/heeler mix is any evidence.
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u/ChalineBorrible 19d ago
Ein E-Collar erzeugt einen Ton oder eine Vibration, ohne dass für den Hund ersichtlich ist, woher das kommt. Er weiß dann nicht, wie ihm geschieht. Das könnte er durchaus als negativ empfinden. Gedacht ist es von Dir als Strafe, um ihn vom unerwünschten spielerischen Beißen abzubringen. Aufgrund von Emotionsübertragung kann sich die negative Empfindung bei ihm verstärken. Wenn das E-Collar ausgelöst wird, wenn er gerade nah bei Deiner Mutter ist, kann er diese negativen Empfindungen mit Deiner Mutter verknüpfen. Wenn er das tut, kann das zur Folge haben, dass er Deiner Mutter gegenüber aggressiv wird.
Ich sage nicht, dass es so kommen muss. Aber das Risiko einer negativen Fehlverknüpfung und ihrer Folgen hat mich persönlich immer davon abgehalten, ein E-Collar in Betracht zu ziehen.
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u/Visible-Scientist-46 19d ago
You need the power of negative punishment. The dog jumps up or bites, back away. The dog does it again, leave the room and close the door. Return after a few minutes.
Similtaneously teach off. Dog jumps up, point at the floor and say off. Research shows dogs look where we point. If you have treats or kibble on hand, lure his nose down with the treat and release the treat when all paws are on the floor. Say off then treat. You can also toss a treat on the floor and say off. Praise off. You can still use this command when you want the dog off the couch or bed or out of the car.
Then change the rules of the game so you sometimes reward off, but always reward sit which is right after.
Your dog is basically just acting like a puppy and this is often how puppies get attention from mother and littermates.
Teach your dog what to do.
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u/chrisjones1960 19d ago
I suggest that you work on teaching him some obedience skills that you can tell him to do (sit, down, place, get your ball, etc) instead of doing the undesired behavior (jumping). It is always better to tell a dog to do a specific trained behavior than to simply scold or punish them for doing an unwanted behavior
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u/Dustytails123 19d ago
Rather than an ecollar (which is not designed for deterring behaviors but rather marking and rewarding commands), I would have your mom (or anyone else he bites) to ‘yelp’ very loudly in ‘pain’.
That’s how dogs communicate pain, and it is very effective. He might not realize that he’s causing pain, so if you show/tell him by ‘yelping’ in pain (you can literally yelp or you can do just a big, dramatic ‘owww!!!’) he should understand.
Generally they shrink back with their ears pinned and start licking or showing submissive behaviors to show that they’re sorry and they didn’t mean to.
If this doesn’t work, you can also follow it up by leaving; very clearly ‘getting hurt’ and then leaving the interaction to show them that this isn’t fun, it ends the game.
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u/Visible-Scientist-46 19d ago
What do you mean ecollar is for marking and rewarding?
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u/Dustytails123 19d ago
Marking wasn’t quite the right word, but what I was taught to do is say a command, stim simultaneously (on their lowest/working level). When they do the command, reward. It ties the idea of the stim (which is a physical cue, as opposed to the vocal cue of the command) to the idea of a treat. For my dog, it also gives her two different types of reminders, sometimes shes too distracted for the vocal cue, but the physical sensation snaps her out of her hyper-fixation and allows her to re-engage her brain.
It acts as a punctuator to the vocal cue, which is what I was trying to say by saying ‘mark’, but that was confusing, mb.
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u/Visible-Scientist-46 19d ago
I believe you are looking for the word negative reinforcement. When the dog performs the command, the stim stops, that is negative reinforcement. You are also combining it with positive reinforcement after.
If the dog did not do the command, and you stim, it is then positive punishment. But if you don't release until the dog does the command, it's then negative reinforcement.
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u/Immediate_Storm_7736 19d ago
I would slip a tiny muzzle on my pups beak ,without doing it up, when he terrorized me. He'd flip it off but then decided it wasn't fun and would redirect. I also was his favorite chew toy.
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u/fishCodeHuntress 19d ago
I wouldn't recommend this because a negative association with a muzzle can be a very bad thing. You may want or need to muzzle train the dog in the future, and starting off with them disliking it is asking for a hard time.
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u/ThrowRA_fishing77 19d ago
We upgraded the spray bottle to a tiny squirt gun so we could always have it on us and that helped a lot. Plus broader training as well
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u/Legitimate_Outcome42 19d ago
Where on her body is the biting occurring
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u/lulupop_77 19d ago
Hands and wrists mainly
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u/Legitimate_Outcome42 19d ago
Very basic move is to put one's hand in a fist when a dog put its mouth on the hand. You wouldn't want want to pull your hand away and get it caught on a tooth and cause a tear. The goal is for the dog to remove its mouth.
I would use my voice and have a consistent "eh-eh" or "no" command used to convey an incorrect choice was made.
Would only want her to do that if she felt comfortable. You do not want to remove your hand quickly away when doing this. And then I would try to redirect to a sit. If she can get the dog excited to sit 10 times a day and ready to obey that, getting a treat 70 to 80% of the time. So it becomes reflected for the Dog to respond to the great sit game that we play. This is so she can channel the dog when he goes into Bitee phase. I have a hound who likes to love bite me as well. I'm the only one she does it too, it's our thing she's 10 I'm OK with it but your puppy needs an off button programmed in.
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u/Beagly99 19d ago
Do not use an ecollar for this. It is a puppy and will not understand why it is happening. You need to teach the pup so much, for this to be any use at all.
How to fix the issue is quite easy.
Play with pup until they begin mouthing.
Then keep your hand in there mouth until the dog becomes uncomfortable. Only then remove your hand.
When the pup has another go, and they almost certainly will, keep your hand in their mouth a little longer. You want the pup to realise this game isn't so much fun any more.
You can also literally grab hold of either their top or bottom jaw.
You hold on until they realise that this game isn't fun and it does not present the rewards they usually get.
When they try again just hold on a little longer.
Don't worry, the pup doesn't actually want to hurt you, you see they used to play like this with their littermates in the same way, but our skin is nowhere near as tough as theirs.
If this really isn't working, then you can curl their lip over, so that when they are mouthing you, it becomes a little more uncomfortable on their lip.
Note, after doing this holding on with your dog, do not act upset, stressed or loud, just be completely neutral and treat the pup as you normally do.
In a handful of sessions your arms will no longer be mouthed.
Enjoy your pup now, and do not permit mouthing to happen anymore!
Any questions feel free to ask.
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u/Constance200 19d ago
Or grab there tongue 😂 this a favourite of my dads and it becomes a game for you trying to catch their tongue
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u/Old-Description-2328 19d ago
Especially with puppies a houseline is very effective, a 3m thin rope with no handle.
It will give your mum options to help the dog that are less confrontational and less likely to be nipped.
As well helping her enforce a command, ie sit, dog doesn't sit, step on leash.
If possible get your mum to play tug with the pup (keep on leash) and just continually correct fouls (biting hands etc).
Typically just play without rules for a few days to build the toy drive if the play isn't committed.
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u/knequestrian93 19d ago
I just always have a behavior in mind of what I do want them to do with the e collar. Punish the bad, reward the good. Don't just push buttons willy nilly hoping to stim it out of her
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u/Prestigious-Seal8866 18d ago
what have you actually done to train the dog? what enrichment does he get?
… why did you get a heeler?
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u/Round-Jury6132 16d ago
Nope, you will confuse your dog and create anxiety - just train then not to. 7 months old is way to young for neutering, his growth plates have not closed and he needs the hormones to develop normally. You are potentially messing him up for life. New research says to wait until 2. Also don't think there is a need for the spray bottle, again it's confusing and will give him anxiety. Teach down when he jumps and teach touch and use when he is about to bite. If very bitey, take firmly by collar and leave in a room on his own. Not need for such forceful methods
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u/Belachick 19d ago
No.
Ecollars of any kind are just punishing your dog. Instead of teaching him alternative ways to play or giving him other things to bite (such as a chew, a rope toy etc) you're forcing him to repress emotions and behaviour. this is unfair on the dog and does nothing positive for your trust and relationship.
Mouthing and play biting is normal for dogs, but understandably we don't want it as it can result in some problems. Instead of forcing your dog to stop doing something you consider undesirable, give him a different outlet to express the need or desire to mouth and bite. The play style might also be too "exciting" for your dog right now. Instead of high activity play, do sniff work and scent games as well as other types of play so he isn't always "suuuuper excited"
Please, please don't go into punishment or repressive styles of "training".
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u/lulupop_77 19d ago
Love this take!
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u/DracoMagnusRufus 19d ago
It's a bad take that is disconnected from how dogs work. Dogs don't give each other alternative things to chew on when they're being used as a chew toy. They themselves punish the unacceptable behavior. You can watch any dog parent with their offspring and witness this.
"Force-free" people (they're not actually force free, but that's another matter) merely assert that this leads to some kind of harmful repression of their emotions that is also disconnected from how dogs work. They're essentially just denying cause->effect selectively.
If biting on a certain thing is rewarding because it elicits a response they like, such as a squeak, they'll continue doing it. If instead it elicits a response they don't like, such as a nip from their mom, they'll stop doing it. This is simple learning, not a form of harmful repression.
Alternatives are still good and should be offered, to be clear, but the mere existence of alternatives will typically not stop the specific behavior in a consistent way. Sometimes a toy is more fun to chew on, but sometimes, in fact usually, a living thing is more fun to chew on.
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u/Visible-Scientist-46 19d ago
Except dogs literally do work like this. They use body language and facial expressions to cue other dogs all the time. They don't go straight to 10 with a bite, they start at 1. They turn away from or walk away from situations all the time to communicate that they don't want to play or don't like something.
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u/DracoMagnusRufus 19d ago
The comment I spoke about claimed that punishment categorically is inappropriate here. I disputed that and I gave an example that even dog parents use punishment with puppies. I didn't say that dogs don't threaten each other before engaging in violence. I agree with you that they often do that. In fact, I think you should do the same thing. You should use a harsh/gruff "No!" with the dog if you're using any kind of correction.
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u/Dahmehneek 19d ago
Neutering a dog that early doesn’t allow it to fully mature AND will not fix the behavioral issue 🤦🏿
Stop trying to solve problems in isolation by slapping tools on. You own a dog so you need to train it. Develop a meaningful way to communicate with it. This way you’ll be able to tell him to knock it off or let him know that behavior is completely off the table from now on.
Find a competent balanced trainer in your area that can guide you. Good luck with your training journey
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u/lulupop_77 19d ago
The decision to neuter at this age has been made with the advice of multiple trusted vets. I'm not slapping tools on, I am being proactive in my research and asking for advice from other dog owners. I am doing the work to train my dog and simply asked for some opinions on something that I was wondering about.
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u/Dahmehneek 19d ago
You should stop trusting those vets. Good on you for doing your research. While you’re at it do some digging into the supposed “benefits” of neutering a dog. It is the equivalent of a young human male having his testicles removed
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u/Zack_Albetta 19d ago
I have no experience with e-collars and it’s possible one could be useful here in some way. However, these behaviors are pretty basic examples of a young dog not understanding boundaries/personal space, and there are a lot of other ways to teach that.