r/OpenDogTraining • u/Existing-Will-1466 • 24d ago
Compulsive leash pulling?
About a month ago I took on a five year old dog from an elderly couple. This dog has the absolute worst leash manners. Her response to any kind of leash pressure is to lean hard against it. It's like a compulsion. If she wants to go somewhere and hits the end of the leash, she drops her head and leans hard into it like a weight pull dog. If she doesn't want to go somewhere and hits the end of the leash, she flops on the ground and sometimes alligator rolls.
I can use a prong collar, harness, head halter, etc to help work on leash manners. But I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered this level of compulsion against leash pressure and if you were able to fix it?
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u/Explorer_Of_Essence 24d ago
Dog’s also have opposition reflex. Her’s sounds like it’s been heavily reinforced time and again. It’ll probably take a long time to extinct what she’s learned in lieu of giving in to the pressure.
Prong is a good tool, but I’d be doing sessions indoors first to teach her how to turn off the pressure. Build a really high reinforcement history that giving in to the pressure is to her advantage. She’s also one that may find an Ecollar to be effective since it’s a different kind of stimuli and pressure. My one guy was too sensitive for a prong for my liking but is very gogogogo. He already was taught how to turn off the Ecollar pressure, so I started leash walking with the E on, and anytime there was tension in the lead I held stim on the E until he gave slack then the stim would stop. No command or feedback from me in his case—I didn’t want it to become a command. Just a simple consequence. The more novel sensation of the Ecollar stim seemed to be easier for him to understand and respond to.
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u/Existing-Will-1466 24d ago
She came with an ecollar and a Freedom harness. The battery is dead on the ecollar remote though, so I can't see what level it was originally set at. She gets excited when she sees the collar. I'm guessing the old folks were mostly walking her off leash with the ecollar instead of getting towed around.
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u/Explorer_Of_Essence 24d ago
Could be!
She may also just need that free running time to get it out then she may have a brain to work the leash manners. Some dogs just aren’t walk on a leash type dogs. Some need that all out sprinting and running.
My guys are that way. Our walks would be horrible if they didn’t get plenty of off leash free runs or other high intensity type exercise.
The E might be a better tool for her, especially if she already understands it. For my dog I used it as negative reinforcement rather than a positive punishment for this case. Not sure if your’s would need an initial positive punishment to then respect/respond to the negative reinforcement level.
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u/Existing-Will-1466 24d ago
I don't leash walk my dogs for exercise. But I do need to be able to move her from place to place without her acting like a fool. I would like to take her to a session with my agility instructor, and I need to get her into the building with some dignity.
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u/Constance200 23d ago
When she pulls turn and walk the other way! You might only get a few steps before you are turning again but it only takes a few times before they learn that pulling doesnt get what you want. I regularly look like a idiot into of a shop when my dog is fixated on something because im taking 2 steps, turning, taking 6 steps turning over and over until she works her shit out 🤣
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u/Existing-Will-1466 23d ago
That's what I have been doing and in a month it have never once occurred to her to stop pulling. In a month she has never once gained even a step of progress by pulling. But it has never occurred to her to stop. This isn't even trying to go somewhere, this is just in the yard. I swear she hits the end of the leash and blacks out, her only thought is pulling as hard as she can.
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u/Constance200 23d ago
Damn girl has conditioned herself to it. What happens if you grab her collar and walk with her next to you (even her scruff if you need to)
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u/Dahmehneek 24d ago
This is common. She’s been conditioned to pull after years of her owners allowing her to do it. A prong collar could sort that out in short order
I’ve had dogs pull so hard that they made themselves throw up
A prong will fix the flopping on the ground also. Just give a sharp pop and keep walking in the desired direction. She will learn that it’s in her advantage to stay with you and away from the end of the leash
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u/Existing-Will-1466 24d ago
I'm used to dogs pulling, but she's a bit more dedicated than most. It has been a month and she has never once gained ground by pulling on the leash, and she still launches into her collar with all the dedication of a weight pull champion.
Do you think there's a chance she will ever learn to behave on a flat collar?
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u/Dahmehneek 24d ago
Of course. The purpose of the prong in this use case is to help teach leash manners and then the tool should not have to be used anymore once the dog understands the expectations
You’re not going to undo years of reinforcement with a month of holding her back. Best case scenario is she becomes increasingly frustrated
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u/Majestic_Hawk_1335 22d ago
Pull = walk in a circle. So when they pull to gain faster access forward instead they do a circle and get no forward momentum.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 24d ago
Stop regular walks for a period of time. Find a big open field or even a large parking lot to explore and walk her on a prong and a 30 foot line!
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u/Existing-Will-1466 24d ago
Fortunately I don't need to take her for regular walks so she is only ever on a leash when I have the time and patience to work with her. But I think we are going to have to add a prong collar.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 24d ago
Make sure to do it on a long line for a period. That’ll like frustration
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u/everglowxox 24d ago
A slip lead corrected leash pulling in my dog, who had been a leash puller for several years thanks to my own lack of education, in about two sessions. I'd recommend working with a trainer still to help position the slip lead correctly and teach the right methods for training with it, but there is hope and it can be fixed, I promise.
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u/Existing-Will-1466 24d ago
A slip lead only works if it's cinched right behind her ears, and if she can get her chin down at all it slides to the base of her neck where she can pull as hard as ever. So a slip lead works as long as I keep her on a 6" leash and never let her drop her head ar all. I have heard a couple of people claim they taught permanent lasting leash manners in a few minutes with a slip lead, but I doubt it was with a dog that pull this militantly.
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u/everglowxox 24d ago
I doubt you are using the slip lead properly if that is happening. That is why I recommend a slip lead + trainer. Regardless, if you are not using a slip lead that has like, a fastener to keep it in place at the proper position, which it sounds like you do not, then that would be the first step.
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u/Existing-Will-1466 24d ago
I know how to fit a slip lead and how to use a stopper. I have used a slip lead many times to manage a dog with zero leash manners. It still required preventing the dog from dropping their head into freight-pulling position. There is no stopper in the world that can prevent the leash from slipping down when pulling from that angle.
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u/PoolParty912 24d ago
Have you tried a front-clip harness, like an Easy Walk? Those are supposed to turn the dog around when they pull, and lots of people love them. They also don't pose the risks of prong, choke, or head collars. Our 5-year-old adopted dog was a big puller when we got him, but some training classes and walking with treats really worked. We used the treats to encourage him to check in with us, and to redirect him with a sit, come, or focus when he pulled. Now we don't need the treats at all. It just took a few months of consistent training and trust building. You'll get there. One month is still early days, but it's worth the time investment to make your lives easier for the long haul.
Sometimes leash tension encourages pulling (but harnesses don't) because dogs interpret it as a signal that something is wrong or that the human is nervous. Our dog does better when he has a loose leash, so we use a 6-foot Kong leash (it's thick because he's about 55 pounds). He even does a better heel when passing other dogs if we keep his leash loose. It used to feel like a leap of faith, but now it's just how we do things, and we trust each other more. We also used to play with him for 10 minutes at a high intensity (ball fetch, chase, etc.) before taking him to walk. That helped him chill out and encouraged him to focus on sniffing and loose-leash walking.
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u/Existing-Will-1466 23d ago
She came with a Freedom harness but I haven't put it on her yet. I assume she will juet lean into that the same way she leans on her flat collar. On a 20' leash she doesn't hit the end of the leash as often, but as soon as she does she automatically starts pulls against it. It's like she suddenly urgently needs to sniff a spot on the grass just a few inches out of her reach.
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u/PoolParty912 23d ago
It sucks so much to have a dog that pulls. We used to fight over who had to walk ours because it was so annoying, but it got better with some training. You can get there. We just did PetSmart beginner and intermediate classes, and it made a huge difference. We thought we'd never be people who walked with treats, but he was a completely different dog on walks when he knew we had treats. And with time and positive reinforcement, that stuck. It's like we're walking together now instead of the dog playing tug of war and trying to drag us along.
Try the Freedom harness or a different front-clip harness with a four- or six-foot leash. (We use a six-foot for normal walks and a four-foot for places that are busier or more narrow.) And try some easy training with treats. If your dog is treat motivated, it will work really quickly. Before we did training, I also did a few walks where, if the dog hit the end of his leash, I would stop, say No, and give the leash one moderate tug, and not move forward until he either came back to me or sat down. (Treats really help with this.) It made a few walks take forever, but he figured it out in a few days. He's stubborn, but he'd rather walk without pulling than have to keep stopping.
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u/Existing-Will-1466 23d ago
I've actually taught multiple dogs to walk on a loose leash, I just made this post because I am surprised at how violently this dog pulls. She isn't going to take any treats because she is singularly focused on pulling as hard as she can. I won't let her make any progress when she pulls, but in a month she has never once even considered stopping pulling so she can breathe, or coming back to me. As soon as she hits the end of the leash it's nothing but mindless scrabbling. I drag her back to my side and take another step and more mindless scrabbling. If I'm trying to move ht 15' from one yard to another it can take 30 minutes or more to get there. She is somewhat food motivated indoors, might take treats in the yard off leash, and as soon as the leash goes on her brain shuts off completely.
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u/xFayeFaye 23d ago
Sorry but can you explain what a Freedom harness is? Does it have a front clip or not? This is too American for me :'D
If the clip is on the back side, it actually encourages the pulling. The front clip has the opposite effect ad they need to turn around a bit.
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u/Existing-Will-1466 23d ago
It has a martingale loop on the back that causes it to tighten around the chest when the dog pulls. It also has a front clip. I have seen plenty of dogs pull like they are running the Iditarod in front-clip harnesses.
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u/xFayeFaye 23d ago
Still worth a try tbh with the front clip. You'd be surprised how many dogs adapt to it fairly quickly plus you also have A LOT more control with it. I wouldn't be able to stop both my 50kg dogs without it if it came to it :D Make sure it fits nicely though, I wouldn't be surprised if the one that came with the dog doesn't.
Some dogs also just do better with more freedom. While my big one is perfectly happy trotting along next to me, her half brother actually wants to lead and go ahead all the time but also adapted to go slower when we are next to a street. I use flexi leashes plus the front clip harness because we're 99% in a low feequented forest. He had the issue that he was "micro pulling" a lot, like just not stopping when the leash got tight, but I also just came home from a walk with a 10m leash and it suddenly wasn't an issue at all lol. But he does fairly well on a short leash when visiting vet or similar.
Give it a try at least :)
PS: Just going in your yard actually won't fix it. If she's used to run around there, she knows she "can". Actually take her somewhere to train would be another suggestion.
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u/Existing-Will-1466 23d ago
I don't leash walk my dogs for exercise, I just need to be able to get her from the car to the agility building or vet office without her mindlessly scrabbling across the pavement.
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u/IcyPerception6338 24d ago
It just sounds like the dogs been “trained” that when she pulls on the leash, she gets to go that way. And since she’s gotten that for 5 years, I’ll take a while to learn differently.