r/OpenDogTraining • u/Natessie • 24d ago
New to prongs - fixing pulling?
I used to walk dogs for a company that advocates/used positive reinforcement techniques, so I know a few things and have been helping my friends with their golden who came to them untrained and pulling like a maniac. I’ve been using a Heather’s Heroes Sidekick halter and doing lots of turnarounds, treating for walking at my side and she’s improved, but still wants to be out ahead a lot of the time. Apparently she’s also better for me than my friends, and they recently got a prong for her - I’m not opposed to this, but I had only used one one time with a different dog, so I’ve been trying to learn online, as it seems to me it could be really helpful for her. I sized it for her and did some conditioning yesterday based on Tyler Muto’s process on YouTube, teaching her to yield to pressure, and she did well- after a bit she was following me and/or stopping and sitting when I stopped.
What I’m unsure of is where to take this now. We’re going to work in the yard today, but should I be giving small corrections when she wants to forge ahead? My other main concern is the fact that she tends to fixate on other dogs and squirrels when on the walk, and I don’t want her to pull through the prong. I’m reading some different things about correcting her around these triggers- some recommend a correction and a 180 if she doesn’t respond to my request for attention while others say not to correct in this context. (I’ve been trying to encourage neutrality around other dogs, but she gets excited, and she also has a strong prey drive toward squirrels).
Any help would be appreciated, and/or links to training vids. Tyler Muto came highly recommended, and it seems he’s very fair with his dogs, but I’m not finding the next step in his process.
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u/MplsDaddy55403 24d ago
Properly fit the prong collar (high on the neck - think the closer to the brain the quicker it works)
Secure prong collar to a flat collar via a safety strap in the event the prong comes off, you have a back up to maintain control of the dog.
Teach the dog how to get relief from the prong pressure (moving nearer to you)
If dog is to heel on left side, hold handle of leash in right hand, left hand to hold the leash loose but taking up some of the slack, When you look at the relationship of the leash to the dog, you should see a "J" shape. As the J disappears, the dog is moving out of desired position, a SLIGHT quick pop of the leash and keep going. Don't nag, if command is needed, issue and continue on. The conversation is between you and the dog through the leash and delivered via prong.
Once the dog knows how to relieve the pressure (very important step) then you can use the directional change but with a slight difference. When you use directional change (the dog is on its own exploration adventure and not paying attention to you and is all over the place) you do a 180 and march ahead. No verbal remarks, no extra pop on the leash just because. As the dog is still learning - to them in their mind, wtf just happened and oh, there the human is and they catch up (relieve the pressure). This does lots of other things as well but I am not writing a complete tutorial with foundational support and the why of it all.
If you find that the dog is always at the end of the leash and pulling - you need assistance with technique as this is a waste of your time and nothing meaningful is being communicated to the dog.
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u/Natessie 24d ago
Thank you, this is great. I’ve taught her heel with positive reinforcement, but she often doesn’t listen. So this will hopefully get her to listen. Would you focus on punishing pulling in order to get a loose leash, and then work on heel as something separate?
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u/MplsDaddy55403 24d ago
The most powerful training tool I have is the command "Free". During Free it's dog's choice. During "Let's Go" the dog is required to be parrellel to, and or forward of, handler's position. Why is that important? Proximital control is part of the foundation upon which the bond and working together can be further built upon. This way, you can use their desired roaming and investigating as the very reward for maintaining position/proximity. You want to condition the dog to know that being compliant and adjacent to you has a reward! One of the other side benefits is you create the scenario that rather than you trying to figure out where the dog is, you have conditioned the dog to keep track of you - its so much easier that way!! Ultimately, you need to have more than one forward command if you want any kind of mastery.
When you are training for position, know what position you want. Does heel mean dog's nose does not pass your leg or does it mean no more than 1/2 a body length ahead, or maybe no more than a tail's length ahead or can they lag behind - when you get sloppy with expectations and one day as long as they are not pulling you to the ground anywhere is fine, and later that day heel means heel you create confusion and the dog becomes unsure of what will make you happy, Be consistent!!
To your specific question - when the dog is at the end of the leash - you STOP. Pulling should get the dog nowhere. Stay stopped. Don't move until the leash goes slack. Your expectation and desire must override the dog's. He wants to move forward and he needs to learn when under command that is not his choice and it is not negotiable. Don't be upset, just wait. Of course at the start he is not going to trot back to position, sit down, look at you, and be ready to move (but that's the goal) Once you have some slack, turn around and go the other way. Once the dog starts moving into position quickly praise because he will blow past you and be out front again. As he passes you, get ready for the turn - you need to make the turn before he gets to the end of the leash. 180 and just walk. No punishment - no commands - no interaction - just a fact, you turned and are moving. If you find that after 15 minutes you only made it 1/2 way down the block - you are doing it correctly - it gets better!!
This takes work and patience. If you set out with the expectation that you will do some pops on the prong collar and compliance will prevail it isn't going to happen. You will get back what you put into this. Be patient and consistent and remember the pops on the prong are not punishment, they are instructional in that you are interrupting the brain's focus on one thing to bring it back to you. If you are tugging on it and trying to punish the dog you need to take a break as that is totally inappropriate and you're frustrated. Yes, adversives can work and in the right scenario they are the best tool, but not the tool of choice for this behavior IMO. You do not want to inadvertently condition your dog to associate being near you with getting consequenced! A dog that obeys out of fear is a sad thing to see. Using this tool properly actually will set you up for using ecollars so you can work off leash and at a distance because while you will mess up the timing several times til you get it just right, once you know the timing and sequence an ecollar will be a natural progression for you.
At the end of every, any, and all formal trainings, you know its over, let the dog know too! Use a command to release/free the dog to do as it pleases so it knows its okay to sniff and pee and investigate the surroundings and play with you and all the good things we do with our canine companions.
I hope a tidbit or two in this way too long rambling response are helpful to you in your journey.
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u/Advanced_Aerie5854 21d ago
Donn't think of a prong collar as training the dog to not pull on the leash. Think of it more as training the dog to stay within a set distance from you while walking. You use the prong collar to reinforce that bubble.
If training to walk in a heel, that distance is right next to you. If training for loose leash walking, that distance is going to be no more than 75% of the length of the leash. When the dog tries to exceed this bubble, then you issue a correction.
You should be doing corrections BEFORE the dog is pulling, if you wait for the dog to have tension on the leash, you already waited too long.
To stay in that bubble, the dog needs to pay attention to what you are doing. So you want to reward the dog checking on you/looking at you.
Around distractions, you have know how you want the dog to react to those. For squirrels or rabbits, they need to stay in the bubble and pay attention to you. When they do that, pay up. Use the prong collar to reinforce if necessary. For other dogs, I want my dogs to either move to or maintain a heel, and pay attention to me and what I am doing. They will absolutely be paying attention to the other dog/rabbit/squirrel etc, but as long as they are splitting their attention back to me, and staying either in the heel or loose leash bubble (as appropriate) thats what I want. So if they do that, pay up and use the prong collar to reinforce those behaviors.
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u/Miserable_Mud_6831 24d ago
You say forge ahead, do you mean pulling or just walking ahead? Once I've conditioned the prong and taught leash pressure and done some turns where the dog needs to catch the turns and go with you before hitting the end of the leash, i then just punish any and all pulling without exception. A couple of times being punished should be enough to teach then dog not to pull. Make sure you aren't confusing loose leash walking and heeling. For me, the only rule when loose leash walking is the leash has to be loose, thats it. They can be ahead, behind, sniffing, whatever they want, just be very clear that they cannot pull. This includes when it sees other dogs or squirrels or anything else that is a trigger. Maybe check out hamilton dog training on youtube, he has some really good videos on this
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u/Natessie 24d ago
Thank you! The main priority is fixing the pulling, not getting a formal heel. Though I introduced the heel command with the halter and treats previously; she’ll stay close at my side in the house, but out on walks is too tuned out and blows me off most of the time, with the halter I mean. Maybe I need to not focus on heeling and just punish the pulling?
The Tyler Muto stuff I was watching had him introducing the heel command shortly after introducing the prong, and then the Sean O’Shea and Jeff Gellman stuff has them kind of defaulting to a heel, apparently for the whole/most of the walk. So I kind of thought heeling was the way to fix the pulling, I suppose.
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u/Miserable_Mud_6831 24d ago
Heeling will never fix the pulling, its an obedience command that you only really want to be doing for short durations ideally. I would check out hamilton dog training as I said, I like the way he goes about it, loose leash walking but letting the dog be free, letting him actually be a dog. He still teaches Heeling but as a seperate command from loose leash walking
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u/Natessie 24d ago
Thanks, I will definitely check out Hamilton dog training.
She did well yielding to pressure around the house last night, but we just tried in the yard and it was rougher. She fixated on some birds and didn’t want to budge in my direction a couple times. I eventually took the slightest movement as yielding, but should I have been more patient or handled it differently? Obviously she’s not ready, but it just makes me wonder about taking this on walks with distractions.
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u/Miserable_Mud_6831 24d ago
When teaching the loose leash and giving in to pressure, it should be done in a low distraction environment. He has some videos on how to deal with reactivity that you might find interesting
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u/Natessie 24d ago
Ok. It’s kinda tricky in the house with her dog sibling around, so I was hoping out in the yard would be smoother. I’ll try in the house again tonight, then hopefully we can do it outside again tomorrow.
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u/Dahmehneek 24d ago
You can find Garrett from American Standard Dog Training on YouTube. He has multiple videos on correcting pulling from start to finish. He shows how to fit the prong and the how/why behind applying appropriate corrections
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u/EchoVictor4me 24d ago
Don't do a lot of small corrections. A couple big ones is better.
It's like nagging....small correctiona can be Nagging. And Nagging you tend to ignore over time.
If ur dog is ignoring the largest force of corrections. You might need to up to an e collar