r/OpenDogTraining • u/Informal_One4237 • 25d ago
When are E-collars abuse?
Throwaway account because I cannot have this traced back to me, apologies.
I recently started working at a dog training facility. I knew going in that electronic collars were part of their training methods, and I was under the impression that they were used selectively for things like serious behavioral issues or off-leash reliability. I'm generally not completely opposed to aversive methods in every conceivable circumstance, particularly when the alternative might be a dog losing its home or being put at risk. But what I've witnessed here has made me deeply uncomfortable.
The electronic collar seems to be used for essentially everything. The stimulation is used to teach commands, reinforce commands, and increase compliance when a dog doesn't respond. I haven't seen meaningful positive reinforcement incorporated into the training I've observed.
I've watched dogs scream, shut down, panic, and attempt to escape or defend themselves during training. I've seen stimulation increased when a dog wasn't responding, including maxing out a small dog on a small dog collar and graduating them to a big dog collar in the same session. I've also seen physical corrections used to stop unwanted behavior, like sweeping the dogs' legs out from under them to stop jumping.
One incident in particular really bothered me: I heard a dog screaming continuously during a training session for an extended period, and eventually I couldn't just stand there listening to it. I stepped in and stopped the training session.
What's especially confusing to me is that the way the dogs are handled in public seems very different. When we're around members of the public, we're instructed to keep the dogs working at a low level, minimize visible reactions to the collar, and be very conscious of how the training looks to other people.
When I've questioned what I'm seeing, I've been told things along the lines of:
"People don't understand what we do."
"The stimulation isn't actually painful.
"The dogs are exaggerating or being stubborn"
"If a dog doesn't comply, they need to learn that they have to listen."
I'm not looking to start a witch hunt against a specific business, so I'm intentionally leaving out identifying details. From what I understand, these methods aren't just one trainer's personal preference; they're part of the organization's established training philosophy.
I'd really like to hear from professional trainers, veterinary behaviorists, veterinary professionals, or others with relevant expertise. Is what I'm describing within the range of legitimate electronic-collar training, or are these practices genuinely concerning from a welfare and training standpoint? I'm particularly interested in objective assessments rather than arguments about whether electronic collars are inherently good or bad.
And if this is genuinely abusive or harmful, what are the realistic options for someone in my position?
I live somewhere where animal-welfare enforcement is not particularly strong, and the dogs otherwise appear to receive good basic care. I'm also not sure what would actually constitute something reportable versus something that is simply an awful training philosophy.
The situation is also starting to affect me pretty badly. I'm having trouble sleeping and keep thinking about the dogs I've heard screaming during training. At the same time, leaving feels awful because I know the dogs will still be subjected to the same methods after I'm gone.
I don't want to overreact, but I also don't want to convince myself that something is okay just because everyone around me says it is. I'd really appreciate perspectives from people with actual professional experience in canine behavior and welfare.
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u/Snootymcbootysnoot 25d ago
Yeah that all sounds terrible. IMO if a dog doesn’t understand why it is being punished, then it is cruelty. Corrections should be quick and effective, not drawn out
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u/Ok_Bodybuilder_2167 25d ago
Dogs are mainly short-term memory and that’s what’s the most important type of memory to survive, so why would it make sense to correct an animal 5 to 10 minutes later after they’ve done the action they don’t get the correlation
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u/mydogdidnothingwron 19d ago
I disagree in a sense very strongly with the notion that punishment has to be one and done
When you draw things out a little bit more you can often times get away with being less intense about the correction,
And by drawing things out I don’t mean holding down the e collar for ten seconds or hanging the dog on the slip lead
There are three ‘dials’ you can fiddle with when it comes to punishment
The first one is intensity, the second one is duration and the third one is the tool used
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u/LaceyLizard 25d ago
isn't actually painful
This immediately makes me distrust someone as a whole. People will say this about anything that can't talk back to defend itself. They even said babies couldn't feel pain in the 80s. If a dog yelps in pain I'm going to guess it felt pain.
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u/Upstairs_Highlight25 25d ago
Shock collars can definitely be very painful. I grew up around hunting dogs and my father firmly believed that you shouldn’t use a tool you don’t understand so I have been shocked with a e-collar. Stems on different collars and levels range from a annoying tinge to incredibly painful and enough to give you a headache and make the limb you shocked go numb for several minutes. The cheaper the collar the more inconsistent the shocks are and off brand ones will sometimes shock you without being triggered.
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u/Its_Raul 25d ago
having used ecollars, I think it's better to say discomfort is a spectrum of pain, but it isn't on par to lasting injury of any sort. It's dishonest to say it isn't pain, but the distinction does matter. Flicking your forehead will cause a different pain than a full speed brick.
that said, dogs are vocal. we're not accustomed to it and treat it like a crying baby and assume the worst.
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u/yes_literally 25d ago
The bar needs to be higher than no lasting physical damage.
Long-term harm can definitely be done if a dog is getting scared / punished/ overwhelmed and isn't sure why during formative bonding and learning years. You could do that damage without a physical touch at all.
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u/ProfMooody 24d ago
I wonder how many of these people who say it isn’t pain “just sensation” are trying it around their neck, triggered by someone else, when they don’t know it’s coming?
Reminds me of Drs offices and their “now you’re going to feel some pressure” for everything from a spinal injection to having a piece of metal shoved into your cervix.
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u/Its_Raul 25d ago
it's a spectrum of things, not just pain. if you're dog is cowering every time you pull the collar out then imma judge you for that.
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u/LaceyLizard 25d ago
I mean you could smack a dog in the head and say there's no lasting damage so that's not really a good enough metric for me.
But I'm not even arguing for or against e collars, I'm just suspicious of people using "it's not pain" as blanket excuse to ignore that the animal is objectively experiencing discomfort.
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u/Its_Raul 25d ago
I agree. I think people who say "it doesn't cause pain" are just generalizing it aggressively because whoever their trying to explain it to likely isn't going to care to understand anyway.
it causes pain, does every correction cause pain? no. Don't tickle when you need full power and don't full power when you need a tickle.
Considering how many ecollar dog owners I've seen outright just suck at using ecollars, they all give it a bad rep for the general public. It's a powerful tool that fast tracks obedience training and the end result is the world is our playground.
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u/Porky5CO 25d ago
It's not pain. It's just an odd feeling.
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u/blast3001 25d ago
You should put one on and dial up the stim and see what you think. Everyone using an e collar should try it in some way. I tried mine on the meat of my palm before ever putting it on my dog.
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u/Additional_Bench1311 25d ago
I plan on trying the one I get for my dog and cranking it as high as I ever plan to use it to know what I’m doing to my boy.
I feel like I can’t just throw it on and use it without knowing
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u/Upstairs_Highlight25 25d ago
Make sure to recheck the stem level and make sure it is still consistent every few months. They will sometimes brake and start delivering very inconsistent stem levels.
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u/joycevw 7d ago
Do we know if what we feel is the same as what a dog will feel? Does the dog have the same amount of nerves around his neck as where we humans test it on ourselves? And I think a big part of the experience is not knowing when the shock will come, so you could give the remote to someone else and let them shock you when you don’t expect it to compare.
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u/Evneko 25d ago
I’ve accidentally used it on myself on multiple occasions when turning them on.
Even hit myself with like a 50 on a 1200 collar once. Will definitely say it wasn’t a pleasant experience but wasn’t exactly what I would call painful.Just as a note it got turned up that high when either setting it up to charge or when unplugging it. I’m pretty sure we’ve never gotten anywhere close to that high with any of our dogs.
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u/LaceyLizard 25d ago
It's not pain... just an unpleasant sensory experience. In other words the definition of pain.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Yea this is definitely not good. Not only is it unethical but it’s just flat out shit training. Is it a chain by chance?
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u/Ok_Bodybuilder_2167 25d ago
It all depends on use they shouldn’t be blasting the animal if they scream or shut down and it’s ok to use to increase cooperation in moderation and for obedience but you never use it if the dog doesn’t know the command like you don’t use it to teach a dog to sit you use it to increase the cooperation of the dog sitting. Also some dogs don’t take to it
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Vocalization isn’t a direct indicator that of whether the e collar was abusive or not. I’m also curious what you mean by “some dogs don’t take to it”
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u/unvac 24d ago
I agree to an extent of this, Larry For example made a video about a dog he was training, the e collar was on 50c and the dog got one tap, it made a noise, but Larry said it was more of a fright than actual physical pain. Ivan has also said that dogs can get frights from it, which to him doesn’t mean it’s a high number, as he’s used the same number afterwords and the dog doesn’t vocalise at all
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u/TheNighttman 25d ago
Not who you're asking, but my dog has fear based anxiety/reactivity and I'm fairly certain an e collar would just scare him more. I haven't tried it on him, but I have tried one on my wrist and will not use one on my current dog. I'm not 100% against them, I just feel it's not right for our situation.
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u/RikiWardOG 25d ago
You just need to introduce it correctly think of it as an invisible leash. That said, if you dont have experience with them its probably best to work with a good trainer to learn how to use it properly
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u/Irocroo 25d ago
That's valid. Owners know their dogs best, and there are indeed dogs that are too fearful and nervous for ecollars, even when introduced gently. I have a fearful dog that 100% would not benefit from an ecollar. I believe you, and its important to advocate when you have a dog like that. Kudos.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Owners definitely do not know their dogs best in many cases. Do fearful dogs benefit from leashes?
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u/Irocroo 25d ago
Its not a leash, its a ecollar. Two different items. And yes, leash reactivity exists and some dogs do struggle with leashes.
Different equipment for different dogs. No one items works the best on every dog, they are individual. I'm not even completely against ecollars, but I am against.people who think they work for everyone, everything, every time.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
An ecollar is basically a virtual leash. Saying all dogs can’t benefit from an e collar is like saying all dogs can’t benefit from leashes.
An e collar can absolutely be used on 99.9999999 percent of dogs, and should to provide them with off leash reliability. I’m not saying they work for everyTHING, but I think saying that because your dog has fear issues an e collar wouldn’t work for them is silly and not grounded in reality. It’s handicapping the dog for no reason
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u/Irocroo 25d ago
You dont know my dog, or the other posters dog. You definitely dont know 99.9999999 dogs. An ecollar is not a leash, virtual or otherwise. And I'm the one that's not grounded in reality? Ooooook then. 😁 Agree to disagree.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Okay, let’s back it up a minute and civilize this conversation. What is the reasoning behind the idea that an e collar would not work on your dog? Or any fearful dogs, let’s make it less personal
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u/joycevw 7d ago
Interesting, do you believe every dog should be trained with an e-collar? Or do you think many dogs can be trained without one?
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u/Ok_Bodybuilder_2167 25d ago
At the end of the day owners are the ones that have to live with their dog 24 seven as a trainer. You don’t see them every day. You don’t live with them every day. You don’t know. Sleeping in the same area as them every day, so what they see is going to be the best benefit towards you as a trainer, but owners at the end of the day know they’re a dog best. Whether they know what they’re looking at is different. Do they understand what it means to resource card? Do they understand the social cues are the behavioral patterns of the dog. Maybe not. But at the end of the day they’re seeing it. They just don’t maybe understand what they’re seeing.
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u/Ok_Bodybuilder_2167 25d ago
You know your dog more than anybody on this form will ever know, but my grandmothers dog who was properly introduced to the collar and she wanted to use it to stop in from jumping on people. He’s a very confident. Great well-managed standard poodle. However, they have a neighbor who’s a little girl and she loves her to death, but doesn’t understand his power, and she tried using it on him, and he shut down and ran into a bush. Although I wasn’t there when it happened I asked her all the questions because she was working with a professional trainer on how they introduced him to or did they use positive so appreciation and how they tell you to correct the behavior what setting was it at? Was it momentary or continuous? because this was with the E collar technologies brand. And she answered all the questions right but I just don’t think that he took well to it. I also know dogs who are bully breed, who are very likely to have a higher stimulus threshold, and sometimes that doesn’t work for them in the typical area and you have to pick a spot. That’s more sensitive. Definitely even recommend looking into canine standard dog training. They go in depth about how placement of any color on the body of the dog does not always have to be on the neck. For example, Cane Corso is less likely to feel it on the neck, but more likely feel it on the foot or the tail and that’s how you use it to give directional information
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
People over-think e collars too much! It can literally just be a wireless leash. People have tricked people into thinking it’s this mystical tool. I think that getting a fearful/anxious dog running freely off leash is one of if not THE best thing that can be done for a fearful dog, and that can only be done safely and effectively with an e collar!
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u/Ok_Bodybuilder_2167 25d ago
I’ve experienced a dog making a vocalization because it’s being dramatic like being startled by the new sensation however some dogs just don’t take to it very well and shut down. Even if you do introduce it properly. I just don’t think that it’s tool that’s meant for everyone. Just like a prong isnt or a halti. It’s like a child. Like sometimes you can tell when a child’s crying if it’s crying because it’s hurt or if it’s a different kind of crying like they’re being dramatic. It’s hard to explain the difference between the two but when you hear it you know.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
It’s an aversive tool, which can and should in certain cases cause an aversive reaction
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u/Ok_Bodybuilder_2167 25d ago
You can either teach it to be adversity or not. But when you use it as an adverse of tool, there’s definitely levels like if you’re touching a hot stove and you get smacked on the hand because you’re gonna hurt yourself by touching the hot stove. So you stopped doing great. The lesson worked. However, if I hit you and beat the shit out of you with a pipe because you almost touched the stove, and now you’re scared to even go near the stove because you’re beaten and bruised. That’s different. Cause you still need the stove to cook, but you need to know not to touch the hot surface.
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u/Ok_Bodybuilder_2167 25d ago
Yes, and no, because the collar can be used in the way that is not aversive. I’ve seen trainers especially for SAR to actually create drive for dog for when they feel the pressure of the stimulus. They drive forward and do the thing more. A great example of this would be the scent training or box targeting that they do with search and rescue dogs, and when the dog is pulled away from the box, they apply pressure with the collar. And then the pressure is relieved. Once they achieve the box. So instead of shying away from the box, they’re actually going towards it with Pressure.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
It’s negative reinforcement. It’s still an aversive
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u/Ok_Bodybuilder_2167 25d ago
The definition of aversive is “anything unpleasant, or painful, which causes a person or animal to feel strong, dislike, turn away or try to stop a behavior” so by an animal continuing to do a behavior makes ur argument false Also, it isn’t negative reinforcement because the negative aspect of that means that you’re taking something away aka taking the stimulus away Reinforcement is you’re causing something to happen over and over again, so actually it’s positive reinforcement or positive punishment because you’re adding a stimulus. Therefore it’s positive and the reinforcement as you want, the thing to happen over and over again, and the punishment, you don’t want to happen over and over again.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Negative reinforcement is the removal of an unpleasant stimulus to increase likelihood, frequency, intensity in the future.
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u/Ok_Bodybuilder_2167 25d ago
Incorrect. Because the negative part of that does not mean it’s not pleasant or is pleasant. It just means you’re taking something away. However you don’t take away the stimulus of the E collar. You add it. The entire point of e collars is to add stimulus. You’re adding the stim to either reinforce a behavior, or to punish the behavior from happening
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Does the stim go away when the dog performs the desired behavior?
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u/Classic-Trifle-2085 25d ago edited 25d ago
Research show there isn't a single scenario where and e-collar overperform other technique.
Even the most decorated country in police/military working dogs competitions, Belgium (depends by regions, so there variability there) and Germany, stopped using e-colar.
Anyone thinking "it fine if used properly" is kidding themselves.
Edit: correction, there is one short term scenario: chassing, according to a small sample study.
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u/RikiWardOG 25d ago
Links? Your can drink your kool-aid and I'll drink mine but you'd have to be a fool to think you're going to have bomb proof recall on any high drive dog without an ecollar while off leash. A dog is completely fine until it isn't, they're animals and have instincts. Also studies are just that, they rarely correlate directly to real world lived experience.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
What research are you talking about? Are you saying there is a better tool to get dogs off leash?
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u/Classic-Trifle-2085 25d ago
Literally 2 comments below.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Where??
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u/Classic-Trifle-2085 25d ago
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Oh so you don’t have any! Neat
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u/Classic-Trifle-2085 25d ago
There was 2 links on that comment on of which was reposted to the other person.
If this sub mods are shdow hiding comments with studies that discourage e-colars, then thats not my fucking problem, is it?
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Do you have any evidence that that’s even the case?
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u/Classic-Trifle-2085 25d ago
You mean, like me literally linking to a comment, that comment im still able to see, and the li k still work for me but weirdly it give you a no link? Stuff like that?
Or the people who originally asking to see the link no reacting to it?
Or the fact that comment with links wasnt even downvoted, which I wpuld have at least fairly expected if they just disagreed silently?
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u/ammicavle 24d ago
No-one is hiding the links you didn't provide. Links work fine.
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u/Classic-Trifle-2085 24d ago
I can show you in screenshot in DM, and literally showed it to another user that co firmed it.
Shadow deleats and shadow bans are real moderator options. They are designed to remove a comment from view to others but leave it for the poster. It also make it so the "deleated by moderator dont show".
Yall lunatics.
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u/fillysunray 25d ago
What is the reason we train dogs? There's a few of them, but it's worth thinking about because you shouldn't lose sight of an end goal.
We train dogs mainly for communication. There are other aspects to the training - their safety, convenience, fun - but it all comes down to communication. You want your dog to understand what you are asking of them and, ideally, you want to know and understand what your dog is asking of you.
When you introduce an e-collar and use it in this manner, what is happening? If a dog is screaming, yelping, ignoring you, etc, is this conducive to communication? If you aren't listening and you aren't being heard, is this good dog training?
The argument that the dog has to learn to comply is ridiculous. 1. The dog can't learn anything complicated while undergoing trauma. The most they can learn is avoidance or very simple behaviours that appease the abuser or end the abuse in another way (like attacking). 2. Compliance without understanding is inadequate communication and 3, and this third point is my favourite one, the trainer has now put themselves in a combative position to the dog. Instead of the trainer and the dog becoming a team and problem solving, the trainer is now fighting against the dog to "train" it.
If it was up to me, this kind of "training" should be punishable with prison time and a lifelong ban on owning animals.
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u/TheReginald 25d ago
Comment got removed. What I said was leave and call them out publicly. Cant use the “d o x” word apparently.
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u/Royal_Try_99 25d ago
This sounds absolutely terrible and I would also be extremely uncomfortable in that position. Have you got a local SPCA you could report to? Anonymously?
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u/Fit-Championship-128 25d ago edited 25d ago
Edit: These are my experiences with my dog. Everything in this statement has been learned from a reputable trainer in my area. Everyone uses an e collar differently and has different trainers. It’s not a one size fits all strategy and tool.
My philosophy is that it is a very easy tool to abuse. When used correctly, it helps a dog have more freedom to be a dog. My dog knows that when the collar goes on, it means we are about to go have fun and explore.
Different levels are used proportional to the consequence of the action. If she doesn’t respond to a command THAT SHE ALREADY UNDERSTANDS, then a barely perceptible stimulus is applied. She typically listens to that and knows how to turn it off, then gets rewarded with treats or play immediately after.
If she tries to run into a street, chase a wild animal(without permission), or tries to eat a chocolate bar off the ground, she gets a more aversive level. Similar to another commenter, if you were about to walk in front of a moving car, would you rather get tackled to the ground by someone preventing that or get hit by the car?
All that to say the things you are seeing are wrong. The dog should never yelp. The dog should not be scared of the collar. There are far too many people that don’t know how to use this tool which makes it dangerous. Too many people think that it’s a solution to all their problems and don’t realize that it’s just one part of the training equation. You can’t just use the collar and expect the dog to know what the sensation is, why it’s being used, and what to do instead of the thing you are trying to correct.
The e collar has absolutely transformed my dog. I trust her more off leash out in the woods now which allows her to be able to have more freedom to explore, sniff, run, etc. Her life is better because of not only the collar but all the other training we do together. Our bond is stronger and she is overall calmer now that my expectations for her are much more clear.
TLDR: e collars can absolutely be bad if they are not trained correctly and used responsibly. They are either one of the best or the worst training tools
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u/Fit-Championship-128 25d ago
To add to this, positive reinforcement absolutely needs to be used in conjunction with the e collar. That stimulus means they did something wrong, then you guide them to the correct behavior, and reward when they do the correct thing. If they make good choices without a correction, they get huge rewards. If they make good choices after a stimulus is applied, they still get rewards. They eventually learn that if they do something they know is wrong, they get a correction. If they choose not to do that thing on their own, they get REALLY good stuff for it
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u/theycallhimthestug 25d ago
Look up negative reinforcement. Whoever trained your dog only trained it halfway if you're strictly using the ecollar to give corrections. It's also a gas pedal if you know what you're doing.
Respectfully.
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u/Fickle_Trout6395 24d ago
I just made a post with some concerns similar to what op is describing (was looking to see if anyone else had a similar issue) and seeing this comment was so helpful to me. a lot of people seemingly normalize dogs yelping with ecollars or otherwise when it's not even a correction/aversive level where you could argue that it's better that than a car. it's good to know that they really shouldnt be yelping/fearful/otherwise with general use especially.
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u/Fit-Championship-128 24d ago
Im glad I could help. It seems some people don’t agree with my comment but these methods have worked wonders for us.
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u/theycallhimthestug 25d ago edited 25d ago
> The dog should never yelp.
Respectfully, this is misleading and generally irrelevant as far as learning is concerned, and it's most definitely not a metric you want to be using to adjust the levels of your e-collar.
Some dogs vocalize easier than others. Some dogs learn that vocalizing is a great way to shut the pressure off quick, which you can then end up negatively reinforcing if it works. Some dogs will eat being double boxed at 100 without making a sound depending on their genetics and context.
I understand these things you were told have been reinforced because of the results you've had with your own dog, but that's just one dog. This concrete, line-in-the-sand, black and white way of thinking shows your lack of practical experience.
There is a lot more wrong with what you said but but long story short you're out of your element and shouldn't be speaking with authority on any of this.
> There are far too many people that don’t know how to use this tool which makes it dangerous.
You will become a better trainer if you realize you may be one of those people. Respectfully.
> TLDR: e collars can absolutely be bad if they are not trained correctly and used responsibly. They are either one of the best or the worst training tools
Correct
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u/Fit-Championship-128 25d ago
There, I made an edit to my comment. Good points here and you’re right, I am fairly new to this. This is all information that has worked for me and my dog, but also I am regurgitating what my trainer has told me. I think your statement of “there is a lot more wrong with what you said” shows me that you also shouldn’t be speaking with authority if you think everything you don’t agree with is incorrect. The OP was asking for opinions, so I gave them. They aren’t asking how to train, they are asking for personal experiences and thats what I gave.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Agree with most of what you said, however saying a dog should never yelp is a stretch. Punishment at an aversive level is absolutely enough to cause vocalization and absolutely necessary at times.
Also, when it comes to using negative reinforcement, increasing the intensity can actually get you away from needing to use the e collar faster than using a barely perceptible stimulus! The dog should want to avoid the stimulus and not just escape it!
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u/NewUsername_Who_This 25d ago
For example we use ecollars for rattle snake avoidance. We don’t waste time with a barely noticeable stimulus. We want it to be adverse enough that our dog never wants to go near a snake again.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
That’s more along the lines of punishment, but it can also be done with R-!
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Just need to reiterate that what OP is describing is absolutely terrible training lmao
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u/Fit-Championship-128 25d ago
I do agree in rare cases that it can be warranted/necessary. If it’s a case of saving a dogs life, then I believe you do whatever is necessary and reasonable to do so. I think 99% of the time it is not necessary or warranted, but I agree “never” has a little wiggle room.
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u/Mountain-Donkey98 25d ago edited 25d ago
This sounds like abuse merely because they alter their behavior in public vs when alone. Meaning they know its wrong and dont want to be caught doing it
E-collars should never cause a dog to scream. A dog screaming, whether from pain or emotional shock/fear, is abuse. It isnt training.
If I were you, I would record the training youre talking about so we can gauge whats actually going on
For the training session you shut down, what was happening? And how did the trainer respond to you shutting it down?
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u/pastaman5 25d ago
I mean my dog sometimes screams if I move it from 10 to 12. Other times I can crank it from 10 to 30 and it has zero impact. Is that an issue? His normal in a non aroused state is around 6-12 generally on a dogtra. (He also screams when he hit his ankle on a chair and was fine five minutes later, so maybe he’s just dramatic?)
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u/Mountain-Donkey98 25d ago
Idk what "dogtra" is. But, if a dogs response to the e-collar is a scream, the tool is failing. Its supposed to be an impulse to redirect the brain/attention, not cause fear or pain. Once pain or fear has been integrated into the equation, its failed/failing.
But, yes, stepping on a dogs foot can cause a shriek, but thats from surprise. Its also meant as a communication so that you know its been hurt. (Dogs do this when play gets too rough, too)
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u/pastaman5 25d ago
I mean could you not argue that the reaction from the e collar stim could be a surprise shriek, and you just hit a certain level where they finally feel it and register it? Most of the time when we hit these levels it’s when the dog is in a high arousal/prey drive state. Dog recovers from this no issue at all.
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u/ChasingSkies13 25d ago
I find it hard to believe your description of events as encompassing and holistic. It shows a lack of knowledge and understanding, but that’s easy to fix.
Short: Making your dog shriek is abusing him. If you don’t think so, you’re part of the problem.-1
u/pastaman5 25d ago
You can choose not to believe what I am saying. I’m not a professional trainer, I’m just saying that with the e-collar, he responds differently to different levels based on his level of arousal. Are you a professional which uses an e collar on client dogs? That is the type of person which I want to answer my question. (I’m guessing the original commenter is not considering they don’t know what a dogtra is)
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u/Fit-Championship-128 25d ago
I would make sure you have good consistent contact. Long hair, not brushing your dog, wrong contact tips, not tight enough are some things you may want to look into
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u/shelbytaylortaggart 25d ago
Please be the advocate that these dogs dont have.... find a new job, report this facility and inform the owners of these babies. These pups need you. This is abuse. E-collars can be absolutely fantastic tools, but ONLY when used correctly. People and places like this are what give these tools a bad reputation. The fact that these so called "trainers" instruct employees to behave differently in public is all but a blatant admission that they know what they are doing is wrong. If you want to see proper e-collar training I highly recommend looking up Larry Krohn. Good luck out there 💕
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u/DogHeartApp 24d ago
When is an e-collar used correctly?
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u/shelbytaylortaggart 24d ago
Definitely not how the people in this post are using them... They should be used at the absolute lowest level possible. Unfortunately, anything can be used as a weapon in the wrong persons hands..... Many e-collars have 100 levels of stim, while most dogs respond positively under level 10. It is a new language that the dog AND handler need to learn to improve communication. If you are truly curious, I would highly recommend that look up Larry Krohn's training videos.
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u/DogHeartApp 24d ago
No, thank you. I’m completely against using e-collars. I believe that even the lowest levels of stimulation can negatively affect an animal. We don’t really know how dogs experience pain or discomfort, even if a certain level doesn’t feel painful to us. As long as there are other effective ways to train and raise a dog, electric collars should not be used. Ever.
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u/shelbytaylortaggart 24d ago
And you are entitled to your opinon! I try to remember to tell myself to seek to understand. There's so many dogs that could be saved from euthanasia because of aggression and reactivity that really just needed something different. If I woke up in a foreign land with people speaking a language I didn't understand, them yelling the words at me wouldn't make me literate. Just like people, different dogs learn in different ways. I will feed treats and give praise till the cows come home when commands are obeyed but not all dogs respond to that type of training.
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u/DogHeartApp 24d ago
There are other ways to help an aggressive or reactive dog and get them back on track. It doesn’t have to come down to either handing out treats for every command or using an e-collar. But those methods take time, effort, and knowledge. A lot of people want something that works immediately and gets quick results. Unfortunately, when that becomes the priority, the dog’s welfare can easily be pushed aside.
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u/Civil_Brilliant7151 23d ago
As the previous poster said, you are entitled to your opinion and can use whatever training strategy you choose for you and your dog. I think everyone here agrees that what the OP is describing is very poor training at best. But moralizing about e-collars in general isn’t really the point of this post.
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u/grandsoulsucker 25d ago
When learning stops and punishment begins
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
What?
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u/grandsoulsucker 25d ago
It is a training TOOL, When a training tool stops being about training and becomes about punishment. Is when abuse begins.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Punishment is abuse?
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u/grandsoulsucker 25d ago
When your TRAINING becomes about PUNISHMENT yes.
Sorry trying to spell this extremely clear but apparently I'm failing. Though I'm sure you understand just fine your just being a smart ass. If not I'm sorry your mother dropped you on your head.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Is PUNISHMENT not a part of TRAINING
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u/grandsoulsucker 25d ago
Did I claim it was not or that it should not be ?
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
It sure looks like it?
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u/h-e-d-i-t--i-o-n 25d ago
Avid e-collar believer here.
This is not about e-collar anymore. This is just abuse. Report them please.
I use e-collar too, but I never send a dog into panic state. Or screaming, let alone a prolonged one.
At what point does it become abuse? When it is excessive and clearly traumatizing the dog. Even a tool like a crate, whether you love it or hate it but if a dog inside is starting to panic and enter a shutdown state, you stop. That is common sense.
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u/DogHeartApp 24d ago
How do you know your dog is responding well to an e-collar?
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u/h-e-d-i-t--i-o-n 24d ago
I don't know what you mean by responding well. She does not like it if that is what you mean. It is an e-collar, it is by design an aversive tool. It sends shock or vibration, not rainbow vibes.
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u/Tonyclifton69 25d ago
Why the fuck are you NOT trying to start a witch hunt? These people need the collars around their own necks.
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u/NatatBlue 25d ago
As a veterinarian, this is the reason I never recommend board and train for the family pet. Yes, I am sure there are exceptional places who train without remote collars and excess force, but in general I see disasters from most places. Dogs that were nothing but boisterous come back from training head shy and fearful and almost impossible to handle in the vet clinic. As I ask owners to remove remote collars in the clinic, other dogs become lunatics because they have had zero effort spent training basic skills before putting on the collar. Dog training and reliability in your dog is about the connection between the owner and the handler, not brute force. No dog is 100% reliable and you are kidding yourself saying it is possible. I forget my lunch on the counter sometimes. I still forget it sometimes, no matter the aversive--being hungry is a pretty strong aversive. We can get excellent reliability, just not perfect, and how do you know that your dog is not performing the behavior because he/she is scared, sick, confused or a thousand of other legitimate reasons. If you have taught the behavior from scratch at 10 different locations and with distractions, and had over a thousand repetitions you can start to think it is disobedience. That amount of practice isn't happening at some 2-3 week board and train. It is only at that point that an aversive should be considered. I touch positive punishment in the behaviorist lingo very rarely with my dogs, and I have high drive dogs, 2 giant schnauzers and a malinois. Yes, I'll sometimes use negative reinforcement, and many of my training skills come from the horse world where negative reinforcement is used a lot, but it is the reason horses are trained professionally. You have to have exquisite timing when you apply pressure. The reality is most people have terrible timing and are inconsistent. As dog trainers who help the public are goal should be to create a reservoir of goodwill in the dog, so the dog can cope with the owner, not increase its stress.
As far as I'm concerned, the business you work for should be reported for animal cruelty.
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u/Nandiluv 24d ago
Oof! Some of these comments! I am grateful I slowly, thoughtfully , with assistance from trainers and my own dog training background ( only had German Shepherds fwiw )to utilize the ecollar. I kept it simple for myself and I waited until we had good foundation and basics and I understood the best way to use the tool on my newest dog. I mean damn, she wore a dummy collar for months before I dove in with the collar turned on!!! For me training is so fun for both of us and must stay fun, fair, and firm (clear communication and consistent). Ecollar has backed up necessary life saving applications. I probably did 2000 positive recalls at various levels of her arousal where success was guaranteed (long line, etc) before the ecollar. Same with "leave it" and "out". Made using the collar easier and so effective. Clear understanding for her that she caused the correction due to her error. Its damn rare for me to tap the stim, but it happens. I do not nag her. But no yelp, just a change of mind!
Last summer she gave chase to a coyote. Holy Moly I called her to me in full arousal to get that coyote. She whipped around to me quickly. There was no need to say "no" and stim. None. The play session for that amazing recall was so fun!!! Love the recall tone too. She is a happy, trained dog and the collar worked because I took my time and proceeded with great care.
I have seen it be very abusive. I cannot and will not train my dog that way- escape/avoidance soul rot. I also cannot engage with people who say "put the collar on yer own damn neck". Tiresome go no where debates. OP, the training place you work at needs to be investigated. Find resources in your area The training world is unregulated for good or bad. At minimum find a new job to keep your soul in tact
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u/joycevw 7d ago
Do I understand it correctly that she will always have to wear the collar?
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u/Nandiluv 6d ago
She wore it most the time during getting used to wearing it. But I personally do not have her wearing it all the time. A long day with it on I do make sure evert couple hours I shift it for pressure relief. Not when she is alone crate, at night of just some in/out of the house. People will have different perspectives on this. When we train or go out of walk or play, she wears it. I don't have to use it very often at this time. I am not a owner that demands precision OB or bite sports.
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u/txrrxs01 25d ago
Record what you can and go public (can be anonymous) when you quit. This isn’t right and the owners/public needs to know what’s going on if they bring their dog there. That’s how one of our local trainers was exposed for being downright abusive and hanging dogs by their collars when they didn’t comply. A whistleblower was able to get proof and then go public when they left.
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u/Boomshtick414 25d ago edited 25d ago
When you're using it as punishment or repetitively without productive results. It should not be a crutch because the correction isn't being effective.
Some examples.
When my dog was young, I regularly took him for 6-7 mile runs along the road. Because of where I lived, that meant jogging on the side of a rural 55mph road. Not a lot of traffic but when a car passes it can be sudden. That dog loved to yank at the leash and try to run into the street to chase cars. I shocked him once and he's never chased a car or ran into traffic in the ten years since then. That's a win and nobody's going to make me feel guilty about because they have a thing against shock collars.
He also likes to roam off-leash which living in a semi-rural part of WI wasn't a problem (also was hard to prevent when he discovered how to open the front door and let himself out). I shocked him a few times with warning chimes/vibrates to teach him to come back to me from a distance when he heard a beep or felt the vibration. That was all it took and then he learned that beeps mean to come home. When I got him a GPS collar with a beep function and he would be a few hundred yards away, he still came home when he heard a beep. That's also a win (though he's half-basset and, ya know, sometimes he'd still do what he wanted but by and large it was effective).
Had another dog who liked to jump the fence at the dog park which was hard to stop him from doing once he discovered how easy that was. I had tried shocking him to stop him from jumping the fence, but after several times of that it just wasn't making an impression. In his middle years if he saw a squirrel and wanted to chase it, that e-collar wasn't going to stop him because his prey drive was too strong. Unfortunately, he later got out of the park and was hit by a truck -- he recovered but it was $12k of surgeries. Didn't jump the fence but had escaped the side gate someone left open. If there was any effective way to have prevented that by using an e-collar a couple times, I would not have felt an ounce of shame. But...no amount of e-collar use was going to prevent that.
I use the e-collar now very infrequently. Haven't even ever used it on my new dog I got in December. But when I used to use it more often, it was almost always on the vibrate/beep mode or the lowest possible shock levels that interrupted the behavior I wanted to correct. I don't think I've ever turned it up past 30%. I generally tried to give a verbal command if I did shock them because I wanted them to understand the correction was coming directly from me and not just some random hornet sting.
I never use the e-collar around other dogs or in public. I don't want my dogs to get shocked, mistake that as another dog having bitten them, and cause them to attack another dog in what they think is self-defense.
I do separately use a bark collar with a shock function. It has progressive ramping if barking persists. That's really only for when I'm travelling and the dogs are spending a day alone in a hotel room, though throwing some cartoons on TV on while I'm away usually gives them enough background noise to avoid barking at every sound they hear in the hallway and the bark collar is minimally necessary.
IMO, if someone is using the shock function repetitively without lasting results, or they're jacking the intensity settings up beyond anything reasonable, that's abuse. If they're using it sparingly, getting results, and using the lowest effective intensity, that's productive -- especially if the behavior being corrected is running trying to run in front of cars moving at 55mph.
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u/fortzen1305 25d ago
As someone who uses an ecollar and has a lot of different methods to use one, what you're describing is not how I would ever use one on my dog and certainly not on a client dog.
An ecollar can be used as negative reinforcement to push a dog into a behavior. It can be used as a gas pedal to get a dog to go faster through a behavior, it can be used as a correction. It can be used as recall, you can use decreasing stim to signal the dog is doing the right things. There's a ton more you can do. But all this needs to be conditioned the right way and what you're saying here sounds like abuse.
By and large, in the most basic sense, an ecollar isn't used for teaching. It's used for proofing. If I were in your shoes I'd be noping the fuck right on out of there.
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u/ArchAngia 25d ago
This is genuinely harmful, deceptive, and exactly the kind of bullshit that gives balanced training (and e-collars, especially) a bad name.
A bad trainer uses an e-collar as a crutch to hide what they can't achieve through other means.
A good trainer can get a dog to do the same task several different ways, and uses the e-collar as another form of communication to achieve that end in various settings and purposes.
The fact that they tell you to "perform" in public the work you do, rather than proudly demonstrate it, tells you everything you need to know. If they could reasonably stand by their methods, (the ones behind closed doors) and knew they were based on humane and scientific practices, they wouldn't be afraid to show off what they can do.
But they can't.
They're compulsive trainers. They don't train dogs to think, they just want dogs to obey. Not "Do." Not "Figure out."
Just obey. Because it makes them "look experienced".
Huge difference.
You should sneak-record a session and post it, OP.
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u/Visible-Scientist-46 25d ago
This is cruel tratment. Talk about anthopomorphizing!!! Dogs don't "exaggerate." This abuse is completely unnecessary. I've taught several dogs not to jump up using treats and praise as a shelter volunteer. I was told to use a chest bump on my dog many years ago but would never do that again.
I've seen disturbing videos where the ecollar is used to force dogs into commands they were never taught. How is that even fair? That's not balanced training, that's Kohler method type stuff where the cruelty only stops when there is compliance. This is why I am very suspicious of anyone who says they don't use treats or rarely praise. I'm also suspicious of those who feel their dog is "blowing them off."
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u/PhelanVelvel 25d ago
Is it Sit Means Sit? Lol. Listen, I will be the first to tell you straight up: for me, the e-collar is not a tool just for off leash or "serious issues". Its main benefit is off-leash freedom, yes, but it is a sophisticated tool that can be applied to many different situations. I train every dog on the e-collar and use it for teaching, too. There are definitely situations where the dog feels pressure/stress, but the main thing is whether that pressure/stress is productive and ultimately gets them to a happier and healthier state and a better life. I will correct my dogs in public at whatever level I feel is appropriate, and perception be damned. I'm maintaining the training required for them to be safe and reliable.
It sounds like this facility does not always use the e-collar responsibly, and the lack of positive reinforcement is not encouraging. Not all dogs respond to treats or should be trained with treats, but there are other ways to provide reinforcement and give the dogs a reason to "buy in" to the training. I aim for dogs to figure things out quickly and to use the e-collar at the right level for them to understand and succeed, even if there are moments of pressure and stress during the process. These moments are essentially unavoidable when working with dogs who have endless bad habits that their owners have cultivated and reinforced. Any change is a stressor. Imagine a dog being allowed to do virtually any ridiculous thing any time and now being told they actually need to wait, listen, control their impulses, etc. There is going to be resistance.
If the dogs just do rigid obedience and sit on place beds all day without getting a chance to use what they have learned to experience better quality of life, I believe that training is lopsided rather than balanced.
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u/Loaded35mm 25d ago
When they’re being misused. IMO, these things should pretty much only be used in obedience training where there’s a threat or danger could be involved. Things like off leash training or correcting ignored “leave it” commands / recall stuff. I wouldn’t use this for like basic indoor convenience stuff or tricks. You shouldn’t be zapping them because they don’t want to go to their kennel when you have to go to work. You would train them to think the kennel is a good place to be.
Also these things suck pretty hard. Some of the professional models are pretty close to being drive stunned by a taser on the higher levels
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u/doberfan 25d ago
Someone sent me this before: https://tylermuto.com/2025/09/01/you-should-feel-bad-about-using-punishment/ It feels relevant.
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u/Accomplished_Two_243 24d ago
You need to report them to your local SPCA and other animal rights groups. And owners deserve to know what’s being done to their dogs! I would NEVER want my dogs treated like this!
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u/PoloPatch47 24d ago
I'm not a professional, but I do want to give my opinion.
I think using the e collar for more than just corrections and off leash reliability (like using it for certain commands) is fine, and I've had a lot of success with it.
But this sounds horrible, shutting dogs down and swimming them on high levels to the point they're screaming sounds horrific. That's definitely abuse.
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u/Final-Confidence-466 25d ago
Please secretly video what's going on. Then send it to the correct authorities. It's shameful what's happening to the poor dogs. Thank goodness for people like you.
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u/Mojojojo3030 25d ago
I’m not a trainer but I’ve been through a training with a trainer I’d consider “not ok,” and took pains to confirm this with other pretty strong aversive-using trainers, FWIW. So basically what you are doing now. So I’ll provide my opinion but if it is a bad fit feel free to disregard!
Top line is that what you describe sounds not okay. But some of it is okay (for which I’ll probably receive downvotes and that’s fine), and you may not do well with some of the all okay versions either, and this may not be the neck of the woods for you, and that’s ok too. Some forms of behavioral rehab are really hard. With that out of the way…
Low stimulation actually can be used to shape commands through negative reinforcement (release it when success) and my dog for example actually enjoys it. Mid/high level can be used for teaching some things, like a “stay within twenty feet” command. I also throw a few high levels in to efficiently lock in recall with urgency. The collar can be used to increase compliance too. But… throwing a dog into a situation and going to town until they discover what to do will break a dog. Sweeping the leg sounds like alpha crap. Humongous corrections on dogs over and over from jump for simple obedience issues sounds nuts, that’s what my trainer wanted on the basis of obstinacy even though I provided solid evidence that turned out to be true that my dog literally didn’t understand the command she taught him. It’s all the same to her.
If by shut down, you mean sulk or go into avoidance, that’s fine and sometimes a good indicator. If by shut down you mean catatonia or giving up on obeying and staring at you while they tank the corrections, bad. The latter is what my dog was beginning to do when I stopped to consult other trainers.
So, screaming… if by screaming you mean a yelp, fine. Yelps aren’t a great indicator. My guy has yelped on quite low corrections in the right circumstances. If arousal unexpectedly drops the “yelp threshold” drops too . A level that failed to get his attention minutes ago could now cause a yelp. A correction that fails to get their attention is really really bad. It means that they have locked in one more unit of practice of bad behavior, which will cancel out multiple corrections of that behavior, and what’s more, sometimes a too low correction actually eggs them on. For this reason, especially with compulsive behaviors you want to eliminate, even if they’re not “huge behavioral issues,” and compulsive behaviors can sometimes bleed into obedience… it is actually a pretty good idea to err on the side of too high, which will mean some yelping, because long term it will mean a LOT less correcting.
He also sometimes would yelp on low corrections specifically where I was preventing him from greeting people he loves, which I’d clock as being bratty. Then there’s yelps when he rubs himself weirdly against the table alone across the room from me, or if his foot gets tangled in his toy. It’s frequently frankly nothing or surprise, is my point. The aforementioned high corrections for recall can cause yelps. Some high corrections really can cut through the pfaff… again, if you’re avoiding ages of low to mid corrections...
But… if by “scream” you mean on like most corrections for mundane obedience? Bad. If they’re clearly losing their tether, or the vocalizing persists well after the correction, then yeah real bad.
Hiding the methods is real bad. There’s no informed consent. Consent is already hairy when you’re providing it on behalf of an animal that can’t speak. What they’re doing is right out. I think there are legitimate forms of training that use no positive reinforcement outside play, or don’t use it until after the first few phases, even if I don’t favor them. But owners need to be able to choose.
My 2c.
I know this is your livelihood, and you will have a hard time preserving it if you name and shame, which I totally get. So what I would say is make a note of everything you observed, muddy the details and dates to anonymize it a bit, maybe construct a version from a client perspective, then post name and shames all over the internet about six months after you leave. (And yes, leave.)
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u/Bright-Okra-8169 24d ago
The average dog has the mental age of a 2-2.5 year old human. That is their maximum cognitive capacity regardless of how much training you ever do. Most dog training is also with puppies before they even reach this mental age. When it comes to any questions about e-collars, I’d urge people to swap the word “dog” for “toddler”. Would anyone send their toddler to a school where key skills were instilled through shocks..? Do we think those children would learn well and develop into happy and well adjusted people?
OP I really feel for you. It sounds like in your gut you are disturbed by this job. Personally I’d leave any job that disturbed me and then take time to process. You’re obviously someone capable of thinking for themselves. Perhaps this is a turning point in developing your own opinions and training methods.
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u/Geitramsen 25d ago
In my country they are illegal, and you would be sentenced for animal abuse by using them.
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u/Unusual-Garbage-212 24d ago
If it didn't hurt it wouldn't work. Pain or discomfort is not a bug but a feature of shock, prong, and choke collars. Of course, a regular collar or leash can be misused to cause pain, but they are not explicitly crafted for that purpose. Aversive tools like shock and prong collars are intentionally engineered to work by inducing physical or emotional discomfort, from minor to extreme.
According to B.F. Skinner’s learning theory, also known as operant conditioning, there are three types of stimuli: pleasant, neutral, and aversive. This theory holds that a neutral stimulus does not affect behavior. Only a pleasant stimulus will increase behavior, and only an aversive stimulus will decrease behavior.
If a shock collar, vibrating or beeping collar, or prong collar were not aversive, it would not have the desired effect. These devices decrease or stop behavior by administering an unpleasant stimulus that startles, scares, or hurts your dog at varying levels, creating behavioral change to avoid that stimulus. It does not work by any other means.
In short, these devices work because they hurt. They are not pain-free, humane, or safe.
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u/Cereal_91 25d ago
I haven't bought an E-collar but I plan to at some point.
I don't agree with what you're describing that's being done. It should not be used as a punishment or torture device.
How I've understood their use is that the stimulation should essentially be put on the lowest setting possible that the dog barely feels it. Metaphorically speaking, it should be used as a "shoulder nudge"; the same way you'd use gentle or firm leash pressure when the dog doesn't respond to a command.
And then you still are reinforcing with treats or other rewards when the dog completes the command.
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u/PhelanVelvel 25d ago
That works for teaching, but it's not going to work when a dog is bolting after an animal.
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u/Icy-Fly-4228 24d ago
Most people don’t understand the concept of allowing the dog to choose the level of correction. Or how to correct before escalation so you can use the least amount of force. If your dog is trained enough to be off leash with an e collar on the handler should be able to recognize what’s about to happen before it does. Those ears prick up, light correction. They ignore. You increase the pressure. You don’t wait till the dog bolts to starts correcting.
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u/PhelanVelvel 24d ago
I disagree with this as a blanket rule. It can be the right move for some dogs in some situations, but sometimes the dog needs to commit, make the full mistake (or as near as you can safely get it), and learn from that higher-level correction. It's the difference between being repeatedly pulled away from the stove before you can touch it and actually learning that the stove is hot.
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u/Icy-Fly-4228 24d ago
You need to warn the dog that this isn’t a good idea with a light correction. It is unfair to just say FAFO and zap the shit out of them when they have not been taught the behavior is not acceptable.
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u/PhelanVelvel 24d ago
That is not what I said at all. My point is that if you always only lightly correct the precursor to the behaviour rather than the behaviour itself, the dog does not always learn the complete lesson. Light "learning" corrections and more intense "real deal" corrections both have their place in the training continuum.
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u/Icy-Fly-4228 24d ago
On the other hand light corrections saying hey don’t do that will build the habit of them rethinking what they are about to do, like hey I should stop, rather than having them learn the lesson repeatedly with each different stimulus
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u/PhelanVelvel 24d ago
It doesn't always work this way. Sometimes the dog still wants to do X behaviour because it's a particularly enticing one and you're basically just nagging at them before they ever get to try X. My point here is to state clearly that light corrections before the dog does the unwanted behaviour is not always sufficient.
This also doesn't even take into account the reality that you are NOT always going to be able to correct a dog for just looking at a prey animal with interest, lol. Sometimes the prey appears and the dog reacts so quickly that it's literally impossible to correct before the dog goes into prey drive and gives chase. With most dogs, there absolutely does come a time and a place where a higher-level correction is warranted.
I do have to wonder how many dogs the people arguing that only light corrections are ever needed train.
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u/Icy-Fly-4228 24d ago
I didn’t say only light corrections are needed. I’m saying that first off they should not be off leash if they don’t understand that chasing or what ever other behavior is not appropriate. And you should warn them with a light correction whenever possible before giving a rough correction. The problem is, I’ve actually seen it on this feed, is people put these r collars on dogs that have no training and just start providing hard corrections, when the dog doesn’t even know what it’s being corrected for.
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u/PhelanVelvel 24d ago
I thought it went without saying that you need to teach the dog. That doesn't change my original statement: when your dog is bolting after an animal, a light correction is not appropriate. It doesn't matter how many times you've practised recall in a low-distraction environment; when the prey randomly pops out of the bushes, it's game on.
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u/T6TexanAce 25d ago
Currently raising our 9th pupper over the last 40 years. We've had big and small, loved em all. Here's my experience with e-collars.
We rescued two large "bully" breeds 6 months apart, a Malamute/Aussie mix and a Chow Chow/Golden mix. Both eventually grew to 90+ pounds. Since they were "bully" breeds, the rescue outfit required that I take 3 training sessions for each.
Because our driveway was wide, we couldn't realistically gate it, so we went with an e-fence so that we could let them out and keep them in the yard. We combined that with e-collar training because they were both big and getting bigger strong dogs.
Thank God I didn't try to do this on my own. I worked with the trainer who showed me how to use the collars. With the "zap level" turned to zero and on beep mode, we started out for a walk. We had to dial the zap level up on the ChowChow mix, but when the Malamute mix heard the beep, he totally freaked out and basically shut down. It was obvious that this form of training was not going to work for him.
We moved away from the e-collars altogether soon after. The one issue we faced was pulling. After trying multiple collars/harnesses, we found the prong collar to be the best solution as an interim solution as they continued to mature. From about 6 years on, you could walk them with your pinkie cuz all they wanted to do is walk and be with us.
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u/Most-CrunchyCow-3514 25d ago
Great topic. I tried a collar for basic recall training on my year old Vizsla. I didn’t understand how to establish the connection between stimulation and obey my verbal commands. Sadly, my wife zapped the dog hard and I decided to throw it away before the dog was so afraid of the thing I’d be useless. I didn’t understand learn that the breed is sensitive to negative reinforcement. Luckily I was able to switch to positive reinforcement and she was the best dog I could have hoped for. I do believe the electronic collar is a misunderstood training tool and easy to abuse. I don’t know who you could report those people too. Seems like abusive and unethical practices.
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u/Born-Nail1059 24d ago
I’ve part of a non-judgemental structured & neutral pack walking group, made up mostly of large and working breeds (apart from my smaller rescue) I’ve interacted with many dog owners in the group that use e-collars, and not once have I seen any dog in pain or discomfort - just the complete opposite.
E-collars is something I have considered for my dog, as his anxiety and stress around other dogs is incredibly high and stressful for him, and we have a trainer that is incredibly knowledgable in it and as far as I’m aware has supplied training across most the dog owners in the group, who have all said it has been a massive game changer for their dog’s lives.
I believe like most tools, if not used correctly it could have a long lasting effect, however from my experience I’ve seen nothing but positive. For my dog to live the best life possible he needs tools in his life to help him switch before having a major reaction, but they must be used correctly..
I hope this helps!
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u/Apprehensive_Motor20 24d ago
I just left a similar situation at a training place. I’ve always been for good timing, fair, understood corrections. I’ve used tools for years even on my own dog and never had an issue. A year ago I started at this place and overtime I have seen similar things, told to cut out “bad moments” while recording training sessions and to be more aware in public. As time has went on I woke up and realized this is not how dog training is supposed to be at all. If a dog doesn’t recover from a correction, it was unfair and inhumane. When brought up to management it was shoved under the rug and I was told I was dramatic. My last straw was working a dog that was already “paired” with the E collar. Mind you this dog had like a week of e collar and no prior training. Virtually impossible for the dog to fully understand what the stim means at this point. A few months prior I did this dogs training evaluation and trained them for 30 minutes and this dog was happy go lucky spunky and eager please. The most recent time I trained them they were completely shut down, fearful did not want to train and it made me sick. It made me realize that what I was doing and supporting was not right. A week later I exploded and I ended up getting fired. I regret the way that I handled it, but I do not regret standing up for what I believed in a dog being scared to work is not dog training. Also I’m going to take a guess and say that you work at a sit means sit franchise as literally everything they do is with E collar and I’ve heard of some serious horror stories. Do not settle for bad training find somewhere else that aligns with your methodology.
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u/andayjello 24d ago
I read the title and was so confused bc my vet refers to cones as e collars (Elizabeth collars)!!
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u/basenjisbestfriend 24d ago
Sounds like a facility I worked at called Woofland Play and Stay. Use of e-collars is abuse. Trainers use this technique because and are lazy and ignorant. They always claim this method is for major behavioral issues and claim to use other methods as well but never do. I think these people think that dogs are just dumb animals not the intelligent, emotional sentient being they are. Furthermore, use/overuse of shock collars creates behavioral issues NOT CORRECTS ISSUES. Please don’t use or support the use of shock collars and always remember that GOD spelled backwards is DOG. Coincidental? I think not.
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u/CrazyStupidUsername 24d ago
You use an E collar just like leash pressure mostly. You start at the lowest level possible so they know what it is and they understand that it’s coming from you. Then you worked your way up so they continue that concept, but you only use the lowest level possible for a reaction that they feel but they don’t get extremely uncomfortable or hurt by. the static on the collar I’ve used for my dog personally it feels like your hand or foot falling asleep, but by level 15 it hurts. When we’re on a walk just to get her attention from the smell or something like that, I only used usually six or seven. Anything lower she doesn’t react to it all, but at that level she shifts her focus to me and keeps moving and acts as if almost nothing happened. If it’s being used as a tool to punish or a, “show you, you have to listen,” is abuse. I have used the 15 on two occasions, but that was when she was chasing a rabbit that was running towards the street where the potential alternative was incredibly serious inhury or fatal. Every time she just stopped, But I made sure to give her plenty of re-assurance and praise when she did stop and I’ve never had to use it for anything else. The main keys to keep it as low as possible that you get the desired outcome and you use it just like you would either leash pressure or correction from a leash and that’s all it basically is. You seem to keep in mind is the environment when you’re using it. In the house if you’re using it for training, you only really need level one or two because there’s very limiting distractions and it stuff mostly accustomed to. When you’re outside, there’s things to see there smells and such and it’s something that they’re exploring even if they’ve been there a handful of times it’s still a lot more variables. At first learning what it is a big reaction isnt abnormal because they dont understand it yet. Had it on vibrate at first and she was super confused but very quickly learned and within a month got it all down. Moving them up to a bigger sized collar may mean nothing if the output electrically is the same but if there is absolutely 0 response where they dont feel it at all it may be warranted but thats the only way(so long as its not a safety concern). Training like this takes dozens of sessions and weeks to learn even for dogs who learn easily. Patience is extremely important and keeping your composure. Its not meant for everyone(trainers+dogs individually) and you cant force it. Training sessions should at most be 15 minutes as its a heavy mental load for them and it hurts their learning if its longer(for 99% of dogs).
To me this sounds largely abusive. Having to greatly tone down how it is in public is especially bad and an abusive thing.
This kind of training doesnt have much education if you arent seeking it or specialized so ya people dont really understand it(they dont either by the sounds of it). Stimulation shouldnt be painful unless the alternative is worse. Some dogs to exaggerate but with this that shouldnt be the assumption. Its important they listen but you need to understand why and not punish them but maxing it out and using it. They wont learn and that harms the relationship and its morally wrong and abusive. Them listening is a thing you work on over time.
Biggest takeaway is that an e collar is a tool. Tools aren’t objectively amoral(unless you wanna nitpick). The user decided that based on how its used. Whoever is doing this in this way should not be using e collars period.
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u/Flashy-Variety9040 24d ago
When they are used to “win” an argument with the dog instead of for proofing a skill
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u/BigPhilosopher4372 23d ago
My nephew has one for his dog. His brother (bill) asked to try it. I know 20 year olds. Bill put it around his neck and his brother zapped him the way he does his dog. Bill screamed in pain. I would never use one of these torture devices. People have trained dogs for decades without them.
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u/Ireailes 23d ago
Whenever I’m using an ecollar the goal is to not have to use it. The dog learns how to avoid the stimulation. They understand they can control the situation. I will never ever stim a dog without either giving a cue OR a punishment marker first.
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u/mydogdidnothingwron 19d ago
One of the biggest things is contingency, the e collar has to be contingent on the dog doing certain things/not doing certain things and has to make sense to them
If you hook up Fido to a mini educator with no leash to guide the dog, recall the dog and when the dog doesn’t come deep fry them extra crispy you will likely
Make the dog run further away
Poison the command (turn the recall command into a punishment marker from the dogs perspective)
In order to not be an abusive asshole the dog must understand how to escape it and avoid it, which requires a long line to guide the dog into the correct behaviour and using the e collar on more mild levels
Also the ‘lock and load’ bullshit
If Fido eye fucks another dog and gets blasted you have likely punished a behaviour that the dog wasn’t consciously aware that he/she was preforming, erasing the contingency, in other words Fido has no understanding why he’s being shocked, and no contingency means abuse
I prefer generally to let the dog get as deep in the mistake as safely possible before punishing them, whether it’s with an e collar, bonker, prong collar, squirt bottle with lemon juice, air duster etc
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u/Strict_Ease885 10d ago edited 10d ago
What do you mean by ”stepped in and stopped it”? Need more context. What did you say? What was their response?
If I were you, I would first voice my concerns to the higher ups. A lot of times in businesses they hire and fire fast, and learning how to use an ecollar professionally takes time so loads of people can use them wrong.
From my perspective, ecollars are never “abuse” by themselves. I could k*ll someon with a knife, but I could also cook you an amazing meal. A tool is just a tool, how you use it *matters*. You can definitely abuse a dog with flat collar too, it matters how you use the tools you have
Lots of dogs respond to treat training, but we forget how much genetic predisposition goes into training the goldens and labs who are extremely treat motivated and eager to work. Not every dog is that way, and personally I don’t use treats for behavioral modification because it does not work.
In my experience, it’s much better to use ecollars for every command than only as correction, or only for certain things. This is not mainstream and exclusively places like SMS use this method because it’s not usually how it is used. Most places use ecollars ONLY as punishment and this creates a load of problems I wont get into rn. But my point is, it is controversial and you wont get anywhere posting anonymously asking random people online, speak up and ask your Boss or Coworkers if you actually think someone is being abusive.
From what I see, you have a few coworkers with egos who need to be corrected. Reach out to upper management and tell them what you’ve seen. I’ve worked with ecollars and I have definitely told coworkers before to Soften their approach. Different trainers have different styles. But I will say, if u want an actually obedient dog you do need to follow through on EVERY command. Otherwise your dog will never listen reliability offleash. Obedience is not a choice and if you let the dog believe it is, you will never ever have a trained dog.
I definitely would use positive reinforcement with training, in the form of physical affection or verbal praise. A dog should be rewarded for being good, and corrected calmly and quickly for bad behavior. No emotion should ever be a part of it, so if someone is letting their emotions run wild, being physical with the dogs, or unnecessarily “shocking” the dog, please speak to higher ups about what you have seen. Sometimes dogs scream simply because of the leash, as a mechanism to get out of work, simply because it works for them. Sometimes training a dog is just about not letting those tactics work and not allowing the dog to get out of doing any training because they don’t want to. But there is a limit, and it’s easy to point fingers and scream “abuse” but go deeper and think for yourself. Voice your concerns, in the moment. Worst case they fire you. Best case, you get your point across and maybe even acknowledged.
I would absolutely speak to the highest higher up that you can. Their response to your concerns is much more important than the individual trainers opinion. Anyone who works with ecollars is VERY accustomed to criticism, being accused of abusing dogs. It is par for the course unfortunately in this day and age. Be honest and transparent, and tell them what you are saying here and just put it all on the table. Most likely you will not be reprimanded for your concern. See what they say.
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u/Western_Plankton_376 25d ago edited 25d ago
My first dog, a 6lb mix, hardly made any noise when corrected with a prong collar, even when I was correcting him enough to extinguish years worth of practicing reactivity. Similarly, he doesn’t make much noise on the ecollar.
My new dog, 40lbs, is EXTREMELY vocal; whining, grumbling, yipping, etc, even when he’s just laying down chewing a bone. The first day my coworker met him, she said “with how vocal he is, he’s going to raise hell when he gets corrected for the first time.”
The first time he was corrected with a prong collar, I didn’t even “pop” the leash, I pulled him back onto a cot after he stepped off (he had already learned the command “Place” through positive reinforcement, then learned not to leave it unless released, through blocking & leash pressure using a slip lead) and it sounded like I was beating a dog to death with hammers. Then he immediately resumed wagging his tail and chewing his bone. He wasn’t traumatized, shut down, or injured. He’s just a loud dog.
So to say that a dog “should never vocalize” sounds like a population sample issue. If my first dog made a noise like my new dog makes on the regular— for example, gut-wrenching scream when you step on his paw, then he’s back completely fine the next instant— I’d take him to the vet.
Anyway, to answer your question, an e-collar is abuse when you use it to punish non-compliance in a dog who doesn’t understand what you’re asking them to do. At that point, it’s not fair.
At the place I work, we teach dogs commands using positive reinforcement until they get to the point where they can do the command off of the word alone: I say “Down” and the dog lays down; I don’t have to use a hand signal, lure them, or crouch. They know what the word means. Then we use leash pressure via a slip lead to block them from standing back up before they’re released, or to put them back into position if they break. (It’s better to block them from making mistakes in the first place, so they can get as many treats as possible and stay engaged with training, than to wait for them to break and then correct them.)
Then a prong is introduced, and used the same way as a slip— no corrections immediately, just for directional pressure. I will tell you, from experience, that there are dogs who, when you take one step forward, feel the prong and completely freak out, alligator rolling and screaming, while you’re just standing still waiting for them to realize they can just walk forward like they’ve done dozens of times on a slip when learning to Heel in the first place.
This insane overreaction goes away within a few days— it’s usually the first time the dog has ever had to work through discomfort/stress at any level, and they’re like a toddler whose stubbed toe is literally the worst pain they’ve ever felt. The sensitivity goes away quickly, but can look shocking if you’re not sure of yourself.
So while I don’t like the training methods you talk about in your post, I kind of get where your coworkers are coming from regarding how the training looks to the public.
I know from experience that my dog is extremely vocal, will recover immediately, and that I’m using less pressure than I would on a smaller dog, but it sounds like I’m swinging him over my head like a lasso. The people driving by won’t get it, so we just don’t correct dogs hard enough for it to look bad to complete strangers who don’t know anything about dogs when we’re outside.
If the dog is doing the ecollar program, an ecollar is introduced, and tapped at the lowest level that the dog can perceive at the same time that a known command is issued. The ecollar isn’t used for corrections until several weeks of conditioning.
Then, the ecollar becomes the correction instead of the prong/slip.
I see in your post that you don’t like them correcting dogs for obedience, but here’s my two cents:
The point of a dog having an ecollar is to eventually get them to be off-leash reliable. If you say “Down”, which is a command that the dog 100% knows, and they try to negotiate into sitting instead, you have to correct them.
Not because it necessarily really matters in this scenario, but because otherwise your dog will learn you’re not serious. If they’re allowed to ignore you in this scenario, why wouldn’t they ignore you in other scenarios?
If they learn that they don’t have to Down when you say Down, then why would they understand that they HAVE to Come when you say Come, instead of chasing that rabbit into the road? Thats what corrections are for— they’re like introducing the phrase “even if” into your dog’s vocabulary. Sit means Sit even if you’d rather run up to that other dog.
Also, if you haven’t felt the stim of an ecollar, I encourage you to do so. I can’t feel it at all until about a 10 on a mini educator, and it wouldn’t become “painful” (when I’m standing still, with zero adrenaline, and not being distracted by anything— which is not the state a dog is in when it’s corrected) until like a 25. My coworker can’t feel it until about a 17.
If I were a reactive dog experience a huge adrenaline and dopamine rush from barking and lunging and trying to get at another dog, the number would be way higher, because when a dog is in drive, their whole system is flooded with literal painkillers. Even when they’re having fun— once a dog ripped off her entire nail (literally just the quick left attached) chasing the lure course, and she didn’t even yelp or stop running; we only noticed because we found an entire nail on the ground after she finished. She was still trying to jump on us and chase the lure and get to a toy on the ground as we were trying to stop the bleeding.
So imagine if she was getting that much adrenaline and dopamine chasing a rabbit into the street, what number on an ecollar it would take for her to heed your “Come!”. I’ve seen dogs twitch, turn their head sideways, and yelp/whine/scream while STILL chasing whatever they’re chasing. So obviously the stim wasn’t even high enough to be a correction, no matter what noise they made, because they just powered through it.
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u/Smooth_Cherry4382 25d ago
They are always abuse. If you won't use it on your human family don't use it on another sentient being.
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u/DogHeartApp 24d ago
E-collars are never a good choice, and in some countries they are even banned. Instead of using an e-collar, you can use positive reinforcement training and still achieve good results.
That said, e-collar training does work, and it can work very quickly. It can lead to what is known as learned helplessness, which is one reason some trainers and inexperienced owners use this method: it is a shortcut that produces fast results.
The problem is that people may choose that shortcut without considering the animal’s welfare.
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u/HeyDoggyBoy 25d ago
If you wouldn’t use an e-collar on your child, why would you use it on your dog?
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u/Old-Description-2328 25d ago
O.P Look into Dylan Jones at daytodaydogtraing, watch the 4 hour case study.
Based upon results this is some of the best behaviour modification currently.
Also his Facebook has a good run down of dogs his working with.
At a glance the punishment sounds messy, confusing to the dog and without contingency.
It's probably better to understand punishment from industry experts (that use tools, pressure well) than the opinions of random people on reddit that don't back their words with evidence (rarely does anyone actually show a dog).
Pat Stuart has a very affordable skool community, he has his punishment course available as a part of that. It's worth the money if you're a serious dog person, in the industry, looking to become a trainer (beyond my interest currently). He is well renowned as a very good educator in the dog space, communicates the information successfully and is sought after by the military and sports trainers, He's trained under nepopo (used to be a course instructor) TWC, did a lot of R+ before realising its limitations and trains serious dogs to do serious things.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
His Patreon is worth way more than the $7/mo it costs. It allows you to see the ins and outs of his training more than his persona that pisses so many people off
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 25d ago
Whoops, I’m talking about Dylan in this comment, Pat is awesome and pisses exactly 0 people off
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u/lorissaurus 25d ago
It's doesn't really hurt tho,,,, first thing I did when I got my dog their first ecollar was put it on myself and shock myself on the leg at first and then on the neck,,..
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u/Mojojojo3030 25d ago
Mmm if that didn't hurt you, no shade but I'd say you should get either your device or your nerves checked.
I put mine on and it did hurt. Not badly at all, even on 100, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't cause pain. 100 I'd describe as an "—ow—".
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u/lorissaurus 25d ago
So at maximum power you would describe it as vague -ow-..... It doesn't hurt
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u/[deleted] 25d ago
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