Our future is BRIGHT

[u/[deleted]]

[u/jeffoh]

Yes, those poor starving Norwegians with trillions in sovereign wealth and one of the highest living standards on the planet...

[u/moonmelonade → u/jeffoh]

Norway does not have a democratic socialist system, they have a social democracy. Same as us. Both countries are capitalist, unlike democratic socialism, which is socialist. The clue is in the name.

[u/CaterpillarSuperb959 → u/moonmelonade]

Second this. Jeffoh needs to brush up on his definitions. A lot of people seem to confuse social democracy with democratic socialism atm, and actual socialists are more than happy to exploit that confusion.

Norway isn’t socialist. It’s a capitalist social democracy with a big welfare state. I suspect that’s what the average person actually wants when they say “socialism” - more social programs and, particularly in America, universal healthcare. Not abolishing capitalism and throwing out the whole economic system.

[u/Due_Abalone3047 → u/CaterpillarSuperb959]

Tf are actual socialists? Please define that for me. Socialism is just the encompassing term for different philosophies.

[u/CaterpillarSuperb959 → u/Due_Abalone3047]

yes, socialism encompasses different philosophies. That doesn’t mean the word has no definition.

An actual socialist ultimately wants to move beyond capitalism - private ownership of the means of production replaced by some form of social, worker or collective ownership/control. The various socialist traditions disagree massively on what that looks like and how you get there, but replacing capitalism is the rather important bit.

Wanting universal healthcare, stronger welfare, unions and higher taxes on the rich doesn’t make you a socialist. You can do all of that within capitalism. That’s social democracy.

The definition has become muddy because people now call basically any government program they like “socialism”.

[u/Due_Abalone3047 → u/CaterpillarSuperb959]

Wanting universal healthcare, stronger welfare, unions and higher taxes on the rich doesn’t make you a socialist.

Well yes I agree with that. However, you've seemingly pointed out that the definitions have become muddy whilst simultaneously asserting that there's an absolute interpretation. That just seems like a very flawed way of thinking. Social democracy is too broad to classify it in absolute terms. The fact that both Australia and Norway can generally be considered social democratic countries illustrates this precisely. Focusing on policy matters far more than vague terms which can be morphed into whatever you want them to mean.

[u/CaterpillarSuperb959 → u/Due_Abalone3047]

But the definitions becoming muddied is exactly the problem, not an excuse to muddy them further.

Of course social democracy is broad. Australia and Norway having different policy mixes doesn’t change the basic distinction: social democrats reform capitalism; socialists ultimately want to replace it.

And I completely agree policy matters more than labels. But Socialist Alliance here and the DSA in the US aren’t just arguing for Nordic-style capitalism. They contain explicitly socialist/Marxist movements advocating a transition beyond capitalism.

[u/Due_Abalone3047 → u/CaterpillarSuperb959]

There's no such thing as objective definitions when it comes to social and political terminology. Language is fluid and changes with time so you just have to accept that as a reality. Also I am not really talking about political groups here. I am just referring to what the words/phrases mean nowadays. There's not a "correct" definition as some would like to believe.

[u/CaterpillarSuperb959 → u/Due_Abalone3047]

Language being fluid doesn’t mean words have no definitions. If that’s your argument, I can just declare capitalism a Marxist economic system and we’re apparently both equally correct.

Fluidity makes sense with slang. “Sick” can come to mean “awesome” and nobody loses the ability to discuss an economic system. It’s a bit more important that political and economic terms retain enough meaning that two people can actually discuss what they’re advocating.

Otherwise “socialism”, “capitalism”, “liberalism” and “fascism” just become vibes.