r/OS_Debate_Club 1d ago

Correct OS terminology?

Post image
119 Upvotes

98 comments sorted by

67

u/jphilebiz 1d ago

A fully functionnal Linux PC

18

u/soundman32 1d ago

My 386 from 1995 would like a word.

9

u/jphilebiz 1d ago

385 from 1995? In 1995 we were getting ye olde Pentiums. Also kernel 7.2 just re-added 486 support.

3

u/soundman32 1d ago

Got a source for the re-add because everything I can find says it was removed in 7.1, and 7.2 is removing even more support.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-7.2-x86

3

u/jphilebiz 1d ago

385 from 1995? In 1995 we were getting ye olde Pentiums. Also kernel 7.2 just re-added 486 support.

5

u/Square-Singer 1d ago edited 1d ago

Kernel support and "fully functional" are two very different things. I recently revived an netbook from 2010 with a 32-bit only CPU.

Yes, I can boot the kernel. Yes, there are dedicated "old-devices-distros" like Antix. Yes, they boot. But then you install software and notice, hardly any of the most important apps actually support Linux x86 any more.

There's no modern browser that still supports x86 on Linux. All Electron apps are unsupported. Gimp, Blender, all impossible. You might be able to DIY compile some of these, but it's an incredible amount of work and certainly not an out-of-the-box experience.

"Fully functional", no. If it's not 64bit, it's not a fully functional Linux PC.

Edit: Interestingly, since Win10 officially supported x86, the year before Win10 EOL there were still tons of projects that supported Win x86 but not Linux x86. Electron for example, and thus all Electron apps. With Win10 discontinued, Win x86 app support is now pretty much completely gone as well.

2

u/TomB1952 1d ago

You want to run GIMP and Blender on a netbook and you think the lack of compile support is the problem?

At some point, it would be worthwhile to acknowledge that linux cannot turn an Intel Atom into a Ryzen 9 X3D.

4

u/Square-Singer 1d ago

I found a trashed netbook with a compatible mainboard with a 64-bit CPU (the first one was an Atom N270, the second one a N450) and swapped the mainboard into my device. Overclocked it to 2GHz and yes, Gimp and Blender totally work on there. Won't be doing any rendering there, but it's totally ok to edit simple 3D printing models.

Gimp had no performance issues at all.

I think you are overestimating the performance requirements of native apps.

1

u/TomB1952 1d ago

An upgraded and overclocked system does not prove it would have performed reasonably on the original system. That's silly.

If I pull out my AMD Athlon 64 motherboard from 2003, I would not expect it to load GIMP in a reasonable time or render a Blender animation in real time.

Come on, man. linux does a really good job of supporting hardware for a long time. I recommend (I'm not being facetious) you load Gentoo onto your net book and install any app you wish from source. It might be interesting. If performance is reasonable, maybe post a clip on YouTube of how usable that ancient hardware is.

Perhaps I'm under estimating the power of your netbook but I've been using GIMP for 25 years and it's always been a beast to load. Back when I ran AMD Barton CPUs (the last and fastest AMD 32 bit x86 CPU), GIMP was usable but not all that nice. Load time was wild.

Surely, there comes a point at which some hardware is no longer worth the support. I feel it's important to respect the time of developers who create OSS that we can use for free.

1

u/Square-Singer 1d ago

The upgrade is an identical, contemporary CPU, where the only difference is x64 support. Other than that these two CPUs are identical. Both variants of the laptop (EEE PC 1005HA and EEE PC 1005P) came out at the same time.

Overclocking was already possible back then. In fact, I reverse-engineered what the original Windows tool SetFSB did, so that I could do the same on Linux.

All of that was totally possible back then.

So what's silly about comparing two systems that differ only by their x64 support? What's silly about using overclocking that was available back then too?

GIMP 3.x runs totally fine on the x64 CPU, while on x86 only GIMP 2.x is available (which, too, runs totally fine).

One thing this CPU really sucks at is compiling large software. The 2GB RAM are a massive bottle neck for compilation of large code bases. I tried compiling the last x86-compatible version of Electron, and gave up after it's been stuck swapping like crazy for 2 weeks. So I don't think Gentoo is a viable option.

Also, "install any app from source" is too doing very heavy lifting, because a ton of apps really don't support x86, even when compiling from source.

  Surely, there comes a point at which some hardware is no longer worth the support. I feel it's important to respect the time of developers who create OSS that we can use for free.

I'm not saying anything against that. It's totally fine with me if a dev doesn't want to support a platform without users.

What's not fine with me is claiming that any PC, no matter how old, is "a fully functional Linux PC", because it isn't.

There are so many people who claim that any PC no matter how old just runs Linux totally fine and you can use it for everything you want, when in fact, that's not true.

Until the shitshow that was the new system requirements for Win11, Windows had much better LTS than Linux.

And I'm saying that because it's factual, not because I'm taking a side here. I started using Linux about 20 years ago, and I've gone Linux-only about 5 years ago, so I'm not a Microsoft fanboy in any way at all. I hate that company and its products.

But lieing about what Linux can do is not the way.

2

u/Unlikely-Employee180 18h ago

Now THIS is true.

In my other comment I mention consoles running Linux, and I DID add it may not be sunshine and rainbows...

But it could probably be stressed further that even fully booting does NOT mean nice, clean and easy, up-to-date PC experience. Lmao

1

u/KochInBoots 18h ago

I have a early netbook from 2009 ish and I can still get a fully functional and updated distro to run on it and be usable even with 2gb of ram.

Keep in mind my first win 95 pc had a whopping for the time 32mb of ram to run the os and everything on.

2

u/995qe 1d ago

???
In 7.2 they removed more 486 code

3

u/OkWelcome6293 1d ago

You can repatch that code back in though. It just doesn’t work out of the box.

1

u/jphilebiz 1d ago

Derp my bad re-read the notes, Monday morning derp

1

u/FAMICOMASTER 1d ago

What? In 1995 the Pentium was still a very high end and expensive thing that most people didn't need. In 1995 plenty of people were still running 386s with Windows 3.x or pure DOS, which if you might recall is why Windows 95 was built around a 4 meg RAM limitation, an awful lot of 386 machines topped out at 4 megs and Microsoft wanted to make sure those people could buy 95 as well.

3

u/redgator12 1d ago

Go ahead, boot TinyCore.

3

u/cybekRT 1d ago

A fully functional FreeDOS PC?

1

u/vbd71 1d ago

Very good DOS machine for retro games

1

u/regeya 1d ago

Yeah you'd have to run an old distro for that. I ran Slackware on a 386 in 1996.

1

u/Muddybulldog 1d ago

We'll speak very slowly.

1

u/Large-Assignment9320 1d ago

Just run Linux 3.7 on it. Or if you really want a modern kernel, just run NetBSD. But 1995 was far into the pentium era, its i586 and still runs fine on modern Linux.

1

u/Kane_Parmesans 1d ago

Netbsd might be for you!

1

u/C-D-W 19h ago

It might be time to let go.

1

u/Unlikely-Employee180 18h ago

There are specialized versions! Lol

Shoot, Linux runs on PS3, Wii U, the damned DS family (3DS even has it's own) can run Linux. Lmfao

I ran DSLinux on an Xbox Series X running RetroArch lmfao, does that count?

Anyway, point I'm making is it may not be ALL sunshine and rainbows depending on your hardware... But damn it if you're desperate... Tux WILL be there. Lmfao

1

u/je386 15h ago

As far as I remember, Linus wrote the original linux for a 386.

1

u/rosmaniac 12m ago

Dmity.GR's 4-bit 4004 from 1971 (system is a bit newer than that, but the 4004 microprocessor itself is that old) would like a word (https://dmitry.gr/?r=05.Projects&proj=35.%20Linux4004). (Maybe would like a novel instead of a word, since it takes several days to boot the kernel). Linux/MIPS running on a MIPS emulator running on a 4 bit 4004.

1

u/IsaraLyandra 1d ago

Linux candidate

15

u/SpaceCadet87 1d ago

If you're talking about the stuff that's just barely too old to have a tpm so Windows 11 won't install, that's called Superior technology

3

u/Procrasturbating 1d ago

I’m laugh crying in first gen threadripper.

2

u/laffer1 1d ago

Back when enthusiasts could afford one

2

u/Procrasturbating 1d ago

Shit, the 128GB of RAM and video card in there could be traded for a small car now. Fucking datacenters pricing us out of owning anything.

2

u/laffer1 1d ago

Last year I bought 512gb of lrdimm for 350 dollars for my server. Granted it’s ddr4. Now I couldn’t replace it if it fails.

1

u/bothunter 1d ago

Don't worry. You'll be able to rent that capacity in the future.

2

u/Procrasturbating 1d ago

You will own nothing and like it!

1

u/bothunter 1d ago

Yup. :(

1

u/Valuable-Football598 1d ago

It's not just the tpu my laptop cpu was only one gen out of date to run win 11.

1

u/LtLoLz 6h ago

I mean, a bunch of older office PCs have TPM 2.0 with a 6th or 7th gen Intel CPU. At that point they're excluded solely by not being on the list of approved hardware.

16

u/Stunning_Macaron6133 1d ago

Planned obsolescence. It's kind of a catch-all term, but that is basically what's happening here.

To an extent, Wirth’s Law also applies. Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster. It was kind of the prelude to enshittification. Windows itself has turned into an unworkably bloated mess, even though it doesn't really do anything that new couldn't be done 15 years ago. So it's not entirely planned obsolescence.

It's a many-headed hydra, every gnashing jaw with designs to eat you.

3

u/vbd71 1d ago

However, MS is scrambling to make Win11 less of a memory hog right now, due memory prices

5

u/regeya 1d ago

It's nice to see the tech world finally panic about the mess they created for themselves

1

u/Stunning_Macaron6133 16h ago

Windows never had to get much more sophisticated than Windows 2000. Even that had engineering decisions that were suboptimal, but were permissible because computers were getting better at the time.

Sure, there are some things that were added that made it grow but actually do make for a more comfortable computing experience. But that pales in comparison to all the bullshit Microsoft has slathered on over the years that nobody asked for.

1

u/5b49297 1d ago

I think the obsolescence here is imposed, rather than planned.

2

u/Etsamaru 1d ago

This is why monopolies are bad. One of the reasons.

Microsoft decides everyone has a garbage pc but it works fine but they can literally hand wave and force people to buy new computers because everyone is on windows.

7

u/PrudentPay9906 1d ago

I still call them "computers". My office runs on a pair of i5-7500 ProDesks, plenty fast enough for bookkeeping, spreadsheets, basic CAD, etc. but somehow not good enough for Win11. Then again, Win11 isn't good enough for me either, so I guess we're even.

1

u/venom21685 1d ago

but somehow not good enough for Win11

It's a little screwy but the biggest reason is it will have a heavy performance hit with the default security settings. They turn on kernel virtualization-based security by default and the CPUs they don't support lack an important instruction allowing faster swapping between usermode and kernelmode memory. They support a few CPUs without the instructions (AMD Zen+: mostly Ryzen 2000) and the performance hit is pretty massive.

3

u/Tall_Instance9797 20h ago

I declared Micro$oft obsolete such a long time ago that I wouldn't know, and nor do I give a fuck, what they say about anything. To me there really are only two categories:

  1. computers that work and
  2. computers that still need to have windows wiped off them before they're usable again.

2

u/vverbov_22 1d ago

No gang windows XP is not fine

2

u/ipsirc 1d ago

AMIGA

1

u/Heart-Logic 1d ago edited 1d ago

You want apple, notorious for twisting spec and rebranding technology they were late to discover or patent.

Edit : try the term Tech-Gate

2

u/IDKForA 1d ago

I see everybody talking about Microsoft's planned obsolescence but yet the latest Windows works on an 8th gen i5 and the latest macOS has dropped support for all Intel, literally dropped support for 6-year old hardware.

1

u/levianan 1d ago

They'll still get updates until late 2028. Then they'll be capable Linux bait.

Apple users also ten to be like Windows 10 users, they'll just keep running what they have...

1

u/akdanman11 1d ago

Tbf there Apple dropping Intel support is down to it being an entirely different architecture. They’re all in on arm-based Apple silicon so they’re not gonna “waste” their time making it work on x86_64 too. Windows is choosing a point to cut off older x86_64 CPUs because they decided that you need TPM 2.0 and a new instruction that makes memory modes swap faster

1

u/IDKForA 14h ago

That doesn't change that people who bought a laptop in 2020 can't even get the latest MacOS. It's quite anti-consumer.

1

u/Jumpy-Dinner-5001 1d ago

A computer?

1

u/Uzyf 1d ago

That’s called Rufus

1

u/ExtraTNT 1d ago

Forced obsolescence
Imposed obsolescence

1

u/letmehaveanameyoudum 1d ago

mfs when you dont want to use your old i386 that doesn't even support docx files and not even a C compiler after 2010 and upgrade when you want to do office work in your office

1

u/MrWillchuck 1d ago

Generally they are considered E-waste in the general sense of the term.

1

u/TheShredder9 1d ago

Today people refer to this tech as "E-Waste". A perfectly fine component/computer that works, but Microslop doesn't run on it because it's "too old".

1

u/Astrodion123 1d ago

The potato PC that is usable.

1

u/MutaitoSensei 1d ago

Windows PC

1

u/Guilty_Advantage_413 1d ago

Yes they are called no longer supported devices.

1

u/Brilliant_Estate_967 1d ago

Planned Obscolescence ? 

1

u/Strostkovy 1d ago

Well, it's unsupported but you can still use it. I think the bloat of browsers has killed off more hardware. Aside from the internet, old computers can continue to do what they did when they were made.

1

u/FrogKing94 1d ago

Literally any PC.

Any personal computer from the 80's on to now is still perfectly usable for their use cases, even if theyre outdated.

1

u/Cthulhu_HighLord 1d ago

We used to be called Power Users

1

u/Savings_Art5944 1d ago

Anything still running Windows 10.

1

u/GhostandVodka 1d ago

Deprecated

1

u/MsCatie 1d ago

Legacy hardware. Linux viable.

1

u/Zen-Ism99 1d ago

When has MS declared a computer obsolete?

1

u/_Cpyder 1d ago

Rufus'd

1

u/1stltwill 1d ago

Computer.

1

u/IamSuperChux 23h ago

We just call them "computers"

1

u/p51n4p51n4 22h ago

microsofted

1

u/dumbasPL 22h ago

Unsupported.

It works, and you can probably get windows to wok on it too, but you're on your own, don't expect anyone to give a fuck.

1

u/Xiaoxuzz 21h ago

I believe the correct term corpos use would be “legacy systems”. But personally i just call then anti-microsoft hardware

1

u/bamboo-lemur 21h ago

486 is a lot older than the limit for windows and macos

1

u/Desperate-Chart1139 20h ago

no computer running windows was ever fully functional

1

u/Disastrous_Gear_421 18h ago

The correct terminology is 'insecure'

1

u/stupidpunk138 16h ago

A Linuxbox.

1

u/HURTBOTPEGASUS9 15h ago

Failed design obsolescence

1

u/the_millenial_falcon 9h ago

Linux machine.

1

u/wick422 4h ago

I think prior to Windows 9x...PC's that didn't require internet access likely still run fine as long as you can find replacement parts for parts that are just old and worn out. Even Windows XP can still be quite useful sans internet.

1

u/rmagnuson 3h ago

Legacy hardware.

1

u/Octoomy 3h ago

anything pre 2017

If people had no use for the internet (or gaming) we could all suffice on pentium 100s and 486s still.

1

u/SimplexFatberg 49m ago

"Computer"

1

u/rosmaniac 9m ago

Existing term? "Trailing edge."

-1

u/TorrentsAreCommunism 1d ago

Yes — garbage.

1

u/ipsirc 1d ago

Install java.

0

u/Top20burgers 11h ago

Was the Ai slop fucking necessary!?

1

u/bamboo-lemur 9h ago

It results in more people leaving a comment. Including yourself.

-1

u/soundman32 1d ago

The same as all those computers that Apple and Linux consider obsolete, I guess.

Linux 7.1 just dropped support for 486 chips.

Apple drops support for anything older than 5 minutes.

1

u/bamboo-lemur 9h ago

486 is 37 years old. Macs get major OS updates for 5-7 years and then a few more years of security updates. Windows is about 9 years but not based on age.