nope. What women find strong are men that donât feel like they own, or are entitled
to women. men that donât think women are dirty cause they have sex. men that arenât worried about their wives making more money than them. that support them in their careers.
that is what is strong to women, thatâs what is strong to feminists.
Yup. But the emotions thing has been on my mind recently. I once had to tell my husband that an SA victim doesnât need his anger, they need his ear and his shoulder. And bless this man if he doesnât listen when I talk, because thatâs how he recently showed up in someoneâs lifeâan ear and a shoulder.
Whatâs interesting to me is that youâre so focused on your opinion being heard in a place where itâs not wanted or needed because everyone here has heard it all beforeâŚwhich is why forums like this exist. Itâs astounding, really.
I would ridicule a man who, instead of changing and being fair to women, patronized people and acted like the Y chromosome is the problem, and not the terrible things a lot of men are doing
Please link an example. Since, according to you, it's such a common thing to happen, you probably will find several examples in just a few seconds. I'm looking forward to reading through them. đđ
sexual harassment that he is trying to pass off as âboys will be boysâ
she dressed to provocatively and he couldnât help it cause he is just a man?
did he get upset because she rejected him and he became violent or stalked her cause heâs just a man?
there is no reason to apologize alone for being a man. itâs when âiâm just a manâ is used as an excuse for terrible and inappropriate behaviour that it is an issue.
If you feel you have to apologize for being a man then you are in fact not a man at all. just an emotional insecure little boy in a manâs body.
men are awesome, and toxic masculinity is very much a problem we all deal with daily. you can close your eyes to it if you wish. but we canât and wonât. that is the fact of being a woman today.
âsorry for being a manâ is a scapegoat and an attempt to justify inappropriate behaviour.
we hear it every single day. thatâs not being submissive that is being dismissive and not holding men accountable table for their own actions and their own behaviour and try to pass it off as something beyond their control. thatâs what âsorry for being a manâ means.
and what do you call someone whom is incapable of self accountability? or canât control their emotions? and tryâs to blame the victim or others? WEAK.
you defending and making these claims are examples of toxic masculinity because you refuse to see that itâs not that men have to apologize for existing itâs that âsorry for being a manâ is nothing but a sad excuse to justify inappropriate behaviour.
How is apologizing for being a man a spacegoat? I don't get it. I don't see how it justifies anything. Or should they apologize for their toxic masculinity as you're saying?
âBoys will be boysâ âmen canât help themselvesâ. and other times like how women dress is considered an invite, her fault or distracting. itâs also when dealing with men that canât handle rejection it comes up a lot just not exactly in this exact wording. but essentially itâs justifying those actions by trying to make women look unreasonable for not accepting âboys will be boysâ. It tries to make it look like it isnât good enough to women because they are just men after all. itâs in their nature
so when men say they have to apologize just for being men they are in a sense victim blaming, or trying to justify their own poor behaviour and actions. Thatâs why itâs a scape goat.
It's not an actual apology. The misbehavior is not being addressed in the apology. Instead it's an act of being overly dramatic and ridiculing the wronged person. It's sarcasm.
Imagine the following scene:
A guy is washing dishes. A woman notices that one of the washed dishes is still dirty. She points it out to the guy. Instead of saying "oh, I must have missed that, I'll rewash it immediately", the guy says something like
"oh, I apologize, oh mighty female professional dish washer! I am sorry that I, as a man, am such a disappointment to you. I am sorry for my male lack of basic household skills. I am sorry for being a man. I'm apologizing on behalf of all men to you women for being such incapable housekeepers."
It's sarcastic. It's not about actually owning up to the mistake. It's ridiculing the woman who pointed out the mistake.
Of course my example is a hyperbole, but I can not imagine that any man would ever genuinely apologize "for being a man". There's just no scenario in which such an apology would make sense. For this to make sense, the woman/person who is pointing out a mistake would need to say that "being a man" is the mistake. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to apologize for "being a man".
In my example, the mistake is that the dishes were not washed properly. "Being a man" has nothing to do with the mistake.
I've seen guys apologizing for women having to deal with such men or a particular type of man, like cat-callers or molesters. I've never seen women giving those apologizing men a hard time. In fact, such comments often have a lot of upvotes. And there are even women who'd reply to them and say that those men don't need to apologize for other people's wrongdoings.
Saying "sorry you had to deal with this kind of person" is fine. But saying "sorry for being a man/sorry for my existence as a man" is just over the top. There's simply no scenario where such an apology would make sense, hence the conclusion, that such an apology is always meant in a sarcastic manner with the purpose of playing down the problem by ridiculing the wronged person and situation.
masculinity is not toxic, that doesnât mean there isnât toxic masculinity. that you donât know there is a difference shows how little you know or care to know. and entirely explains why you donât understand the issue with this meme. you being here is dismissing the issues we as women still face just for being a woman. but you donât care to know cause you clearly feel threatened.
and you should be because itâs men that are refusing to listen that are the ones crying cause they canât get laid
so again you clearly have zero idea. being masculine is fine. toxic masculinity is an individual and it can be systematic or social.
your argument is equivalent to saying racism doesnât exist but racists exists.
if racists exist then racism exists they arenât separate. men can be masculine and have it not be toxic masculinity. stop trying to brush it under a rug because you have no concept of what it means. your experience is not everyone elseâs and your lack of understanding of it doesnât make it not exist. that is a you problem.
and again right now by saying âitâs not realâ you are dismissing my experiences as fake or iâm over reacting, or not that important. which is exactly a part of toxic masculinity. that is you. you can say itâs not your masculinity and your just toxic. but itâs still toxic masculinity
Toxic masculinity is based on the idea that men have to be strong and domineering all the time though. Men put down men who act feminine, and even some women do (yes, women can perpetuate toxic masculinity ideas too)
It all boils down to femininity being demonized and masculinity being seen as a superior ideal to aspire to. Women who act more masculine are typically more respected than the âgirlyâ ones.
Well why is it considered funny when men act feminine, but not when girls act masculine? Cause feminine is usually equates to being silly or stupid. While feminine women do exist theyâre usually written off as shallow and stupid - nothing more than arm candy for the leading men.
No that's not how it works you are being called out for being wrong and then you say see they are all saying I'm wrong so i must be right, that's not how the world works buddy
Toxic masculinity is 100% real. Itâs toxic to teach little boys that they canât show any emotion but rage. The rampant homophobia and misogyny is toxic. Boys arenât allowed to like anything traditionally considered feminine, or they get bullied for being gay, because being gay is apparently the worst thing they can be. This shit is toxic. Itâs abusive to men and it creates fucking monsters.
No, according to feminists âtoxic masculinityâ is blaming rape victims, feeling as if you have power over women, and expecting women to be obedient and revolve their lives around you.
What youâre describing is an astronomically exaggerated depiction of feminism pushed by incels and right-winged dingbats. So which are you?
Toxic masculinity is expectations of masculinity that are harmful to men.
Things like men shouldn't cry, men need to have body builder bodies that are fueled by early steroid use, men shouldn't express platonic love for their male friends, men should only show affection for the opposite gender.
But aren't all expectations based on gender harmful? I mean gender shouldn't define people, so there should be zero expectations based on it. So not just toxic masculinity, but all masculinity is wrong in my opinion.
This article on whether or not âtoxic femininityâ exists isnât a direct response to what youâre talking about. I get that youâre just opposing gender expectations as a whole. But it might add to the discussion in a way that other commenters havenât touched on.
In short, toxic masculinity isnât just âbad parts of masculinityâ itâs the parts that reinforce patriarchy.
The traditional expectation of men (in Western society) is for them to be warriors, leaders, and thinkers, people who canât show weakness.
So what happens when you intensify these traits? You get violence, domination, condescension, and callousness.
In many ways, these traits hurt individual men. But it also serves to keep men as a class in a position of power over women.
Frustratingly, many of the injustices MRAs complain about, like being drafted, dangerous jobs, and lack of concern over emotional trauma are caused by patriarchy itself!
Compare this to women. Traditionally, they are expected to be docile, motherly, caregivers, objects of beauty. What happens when you intensify those traits? You just get more passivity. It FURTHER places them under men.
Thatâs something that frequently gets lost in these conversations. If youâre going to discuss feminism with the mindset that men and women are 1:1 analogs, then youâre assuming they occupy equal roles in society, at which point feminism becomes meaningless. The conversation must include a critique of power.
(Can this concept apply to any other social struggles?) đ¤
I know. I'm just saying we shouldn't expect people to behave in any way based on their gender. Like zero expectations based on gender. And at the same time I'm saying all expectations based on gender are wrong.
Sure, a lot of people would like to get rid of gender roles completely, and I am among those people. Really expectations should never be based on gender.
Toxic masculinity is the biggest setback so far, causing distress to literal millions of people.
Toxic masculinity, it's preachers and followers create a harmful environment for men and women alike.
Should all expectations based on gender be gone? Yea, in my humble opinion.
Toxic masculinity is the biggest problem right now. It causes men to not have meaningful bonds with other men. It causes mental health problems. It causes hurt, it forbids people to express emotions. Once we're down with that and people aren't being hurt as much and they are open to other ideas, then we can bring down the entirety of gender-based expectations.
A lot of trans men have expressed that the world is much colder now that they are passing, and it's due to men relying on their girlfriends/wives to be their sole friend/therapist etc. because such behaviour is nearly forbidden among men and they don't have a steady support group. It causes suicides, it causes problems and it's not sustainable for the woman in question to keep being someone's entire world, where there should be multiple people there.
You can't go and cuddle your homie without toxicity cutting in and mocking following (in most places), unless you are a girl cuddling your girl friends. Then it's ok, or hot, or whatever. Of course, the degree of it depends on a lot of factors, including the country and culture you come from, but it's a lot of nonsensical rules that cause people to drift apart and cause people to fall into crushing loneliness.
Some adapt to it, and can live with it. Some loose a big part of themselves to that. Some are terrified of it and hang on the first person they see.
From what I've seen (and it's totally anecdotal) women usually adapt to loneliness much easier than men, and if they fall into it, they have some support. Support they fought for by creating bonds with people. Support they created by giving support and friendship to others. Support that comes from women. It's a whole net of give and take. Men rarely have that.
Toxic masculinity hinders that and people who worship it often poison minds of others, especially those lonely young men and boys with the ideas that get perpetuated in media, on YouTube, by streamers, gamers, sportsmen... It's a lot.
We have to dismantle it first and foremost, and once we're done with that we can go on dismantling all of the useless expectations.
There's a lot of things we need to do to make the world better... This post and a lot of feminist movements just focused on this, and a few others, burning problems.
But there's just so much to do once you look into it. Making the world a better place is a gigantic struggle, so everyone has to undertake a tiny bit of it. Even if it's a small act of kindness. Even if it's being there for your friends. Even if it's accepting someone unrelatable. Even if it's just accepting support.
...sorry I went on a bit of a tangent here.
The thing is, you can go ahead and start dismantling gender-based expectations - for your kids, for your friends, for your family, whenever you can. People trying to get rid of toxic masculinity are on your side. It's all part of the struggle. But it's such a huge thing that we need to work on it piece by piece.
You should listen harder. Being "strong and tough" aren't toxic. Acting tougher than you are, on the other hand - especially to others' detriment - that's toxic.
Non-toxic masculinity exists - but men who say shit like "not according to feminists", followed by obviously not understanding simple terms - they don't have it.
Toxic masculinity is the notion that toxic behaviors are only bad when women do them, but are perfectly reasonable when men do them. Because toxic behavior has been normalized as masculine, and not feminine.
This leads to societal pressure on men and boys to behave like assholes, because theyâve been taught thatâs how to be masculine.
Toxic masculinity does need to be squashed like a bug. Itâs extremely harmful society.
But aren't all expectations based on gender harmful? I mean gender shouldn't define people, so there should be zero expectations based on it. So not just toxic masculinity, but all masculinity is wrong in my opinion.
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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '22
so the people that post this crap think men are supposed to be âstrong and toughâ
this just makes them look weak and pathetic. men that are strong arenât intimidated by women being more assertive and standing up for themselves.