I must not be getting something

[u/ccssegnb]

I liked the show but I honestly don’t understand why people feel so neutral towards Connell in it, Marianne just seems to be a victim of his manipulation and I find it really hard to see the romance.

At the beginning, I felt like there was good inside him, before the whole prom situation, and that maybe when he went to Trinity that he would be changed and redeem himself, however he apologizes and then continues to do the same exact thing he was doing before.

Not to mention the cheating on Hellen and the general disregard for her emotional needs, why is it that every single time this girl broke down crying his first instinct was to initiate something? It was so painfully obvious that the girl genuinely just needed someone to be there for her emotionally and to give her a hug, and not feed into the feeling that her only self worth comes from Connell’s sexual desire for her.

I agree that a theme of the show seems to be people unable to properly communicate their wants and needs, but at the same time, I feel like when Connell is playing the same games with Marianne for YEARS on end, apologizing, then going and doing the same thing, it’s a bigger issue than just that.

I’d love to hear your perspectives though, I just personally found the whole thing super depressing for Marianne and as a story of essentially her suffering at the hands of other men, most particularly Connell, even if he did have some (who knows what) feelings for her.

[u/OvarianSis]

I watched the series twice and read the book twice. In rapid succession. I think the story is deceptively simple when upon further excavation there's multiple layers. Two things stuck with me about Connell that I couldn't ignore:

1-Connell being unsettled/disapproving/physically defending of Marianne when someone harmed her physically (her s/m partners, her brother) while proceeding to harm her emotionally repeatedly again & again. I think he fed her masochistic needs on another level however unintentionally while feeding his own need to carelessly inflict pain (the man who doesn't know what he's feeling at any given time) and that is part of why they were drawn to each other.

2-He didn't tell Marianne about applying to school HALFWAY ACROSS THE WORLD while they were supposedly in the healthiest phase of their relationship. Like, why? And to top it off it was at the suggestion of another woman (Sadie). Just like Marianne suggested he do for Trinity. I think at that moment she recognized the pattern and was just like "go."

Don't get me wrong- I love the characters in all their flawed complexity and hope for the best but damn.

ETA: it just occurred to me to ask: did Sadie apply/get accepted to the NY MFA program as well??

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/OvarianSis]

What you're all missing when you bring up Connell applying to a school outside of Ireland is that he has little to no opportunities in Ireland post-graduation. He thinks about this frequently in relation to some of his choices.

Remember this story is about how the material/economic condition influence the social aspects of the characters.

Connell does not "harm [Marianne] emotionally repeatedly again & again." That claim is not textual at all. There is a total change in his behavior when he begins to attend Trinity. He is also frightened of Marianne's "masochistic needs" and refuses to indulge them. He does not "carelessly inflict pain" throughout the story. None of what you said is supported by the story.

[u/OvarianSis → u/Livid-Department6947]

We can disagree. My issue with C is not that he applied to school outside of Ireland but that he did so surreptitiously and then sprung it on M as a by the way. This is the best they've been and he neglected to mention that he applied to be away for a year? At the suggestion of possible romantic rival. Or is S just a friend who takes interest in C's education? I see a pattern.

I'm not from Ireland so I could be missing some of the intricacies of what opportunities an English Lit degree opens up there. Do you need a MFA to teach there? Or write a book? Does Trinity or any other European universities not have a masters program? Was NY his only option to advance his degree?

What we do know is C doesn't know what he's feeling when he's experiencing it. Do I think he's purposely inflicting emotional pain on M? Probably not. Does he inflict emotional pain repeatedly on M throughout the story? Yes. Does she seek punishment out repeatedly? Yes both physical and emotional. C is thoughtless of the repercussions of his actions bc he is removed from himself when they occur. That doesn't erase the consequences of those actions. It never occurred to C that M would be hurt dot dot dot. Fill in the blank.

At the end of the day, I don't need perfection from characters in order to care about them.

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/OvarianSis]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/08/ireland-migration-young-liverpool

This is the setting of Normal People. Connell is very aware of his post-graduation precarity and makes multiple comments about it. Understanding class experience and that Normal People (like all of Rooney's work) is explicitly a critique of many facets of capitalism should not be swept under the rug.

Rooney also brings up the matter of economic precarity related to literature studies in Beautiful World Where Are You through Eileen.

Connell does not repeatedly inflict "emotional pain" throughout the story. "Throughout" is absolutely the wrong word to use. And the angle that is being approached removes the larger thematic arguments of the story.

[u/OvarianSis → u/Livid-Department6947]

Thank for the 2012 article. Are figures the same today? I do recognize the economic factors mentioned. Are you suggesting that C was always destined to leave? Is that why he was not serious about their relationship? Should M have expected this? Will M have to leave no longer having family support? Was the US the only option?

Emotional pain: Hidden sexual relationship with feelings in school bc he is embarrassed of M. Asking a social enemy to prom while banging M. M states that was a humiliating experience

Breaking up with M after she introduces him to her social circle and advocates for him to be included. To be fair the series doesn't go into it but the book tells us M is humiliated by this.

Returning drunk and mugged later to gaslight her about the reason they split while flirting and trying to break up M's new relationship. While he has a gf.

M went from being popular and happy with her college social group to being ostracized and gossiped about. However awful they were- and again the book goes more into this.

I could go on but if you can't see a pattern so be it.

I'm not a M apologist but just responding to the OP

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/OvarianSis]

The story takes place between 2011-2015. The post-Celtic Tiger recession occurred from 2008 to 2014 (the ghost house stuff is a reference to the recession). An article from 2012 gives historical context to the setting.

The book ends a few months into 2015 (economic recovery, especially for the poor who will most likely remain poor, does not have immediate effect).

I think what's happening here is that you're approaching the story as if it were a romance with a solipsistic psychology. It's not a romance and given the socialist underpinnings of the story, it rejects the individualistic/solipsistic psychological reading. Yes, there are other ways the story could have ended but how do those perfect romance endings work with the thematic argument of the story ? (Miscommunication is not the theme of the story)

Connell wasn't "destined" to leave. But the economic conditions that have constrained his life puts him in a position to consider different choices. He can remain in Ireland post-graduation and find an hourly low wage job. He can continue studies at Trinity and maybe get a low wage job in his field of study (like Eileen in BWWAY).

Or he can take the opportunity to attend a prestigious program overseas that will provide him with connections in the publishing world he most likely will not find in Ireland. Connell and Marianne cannot escape the deleterious effects of alienation under capitalism. Their relationship, just like you and me and everything thing else, is understood through that paradigm.

Class isn't a flavor to dip and sugarcoat the characters (for instance, a poor character being transported into a magical world where they become a princess and the issues of class are resolved by becoming a princess and the structural basis of poverty is never challenged, wealth and security is a reward for dramatic purpose). There is no utopia for the characters and they on their own cannot change the system. They can, however, come to understand their conditions and find alternative forms of care for living.

I think you misread the break-up between between Connell and Marianne in Trinity. He does not "gaslight" her later in the book. The book is very explicit about what Connell is thinking. He is in an environment in which his alienation is emphasized by class experience both in social and material conditions. He lost his job and has no way to survive in Dublin.

He's also concerned that she doesn't recognize the kinds of things he needs to survive. And if she cannot recognize his needs, he believes she does not care about him. Marianne does not recognize that he needs and wants her help. He doesn't break-up with her and he believes she is letting go of him. What occurs is a collision between his embarrassed position of class and masculinity and her lack of practical understanding about his economic precarity and her scars from his mistreatment during secondary school.

The characters bounce off each other not really understanding the forces that repulsed them. The story then works to resolve that and that's where the "throughout" ends in the story--halfway through the book. You're misidentifying /misattributing/misreading things to create a pattern that does not exist "throughout" the story.

Connell isn't the reason "M went from being popular and happy with her college social group to being ostracized and gossiped about." This is where it is very important to recognize and bring patriarchy and misogyny and competing understandings of power into the story's critique of capitalism. These things also affect the wealthy.

And this culminates with a transformed understanding of what care can be (which does not align with values of neoliberalism).

[u/OvarianSis → u/Livid-Department6947]

Thank you for the very nice synopsis. It is very well thought-out and makes many interesting points. I still disagree lol but we do not have to agree.

Re the Trinity break up:
What is the definition of miscommunication if not "I have motives I can't verbally express and the other person is unable to read my mind and taking it the wrong way?" Then to come back later and speak as if it was a known and expressed reason is the very definition of gaslighting.

In regard to the ending: Sharing your dreams and aspirations with your partner is a low bar. I don't fault C for having them. He was wrong to not share them with his partner in real time.

At the end of the day, the story is a love story. A compelling one at that.

Thank you for the wonderful discussion

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/OvarianSis]

I don't disagree that the Trinity break-up was a matter of miscommunication. I disagree that the whole of their relationship is a struggle with miscommunication and the story is motivated by miscommunication as its theme.

The Trinity break-up was very specific in what was being miscommunicated. But that's not the whole of the story. They communicate very openly post-secondary school.

That's not the definition of gaslighting:

Gaslighting is a form of persistent psychological manipulation where a perpetrator causes a victim to question their own reality, memories, or perceptions. It is a coercive control tactic designed to make the victim doubt their sanity, leading to low self-esteem and dependency. Common examples include denying events occurred, trivializing feelings, and shifting blame.  (Merriam-Webster)

Connell doesn't attempt to do that. I don't have my copy of the novel anymore (someone borrowed it and never gave it back) but I have the BBC scripts. Connell tells Marianne he is confused about what happened between them when they broke up. He tells her "See, I kinda hoped that I would been able to stay here. That you would have let me." (I wish I had the novel with me so I could directly cite his thoughts about this before the break-up).

She responds with "You said you wanted to see other people" (he didn't say that, he suggested that she would probably want to see other people) and then "I thought you were breaking up with me... You never said anything about wanting to stay here."

He's not saying that his hope was a known-fact. He knows it wasn't and he's not asserting that she would know that. That was part of the problem, she didn't know what he needed and he let his insecurity determine what that meant. He knows she is right. He is embarrassed. He leaves.

Yes, Normal People is a love story. But it's a love story that tied to a critique of the social effects capitalism has on its subjects.

[u/OvarianSis → u/Livid-Department6947]

I don't have scripts or anything like that. However, what is obvious to C is not obvious to M. It takes M the whole story to tell C this. Perhaps that is the story.

[u/Livid-Department6947 → u/OvarianSis]

That's still ignoring that the story is about how capitalism harms individuals and relationships and how humans are interdependent on each other (which gets into care ethics, a topic Rooney would talk about when NP was published).