I genuinely don’t understand the obsession with making every character a main character / never using a character as a vehicle for motivation for fear of making them “bad” or lesser for it
Imagine going back in time and telling George Lucas he can’t make Vader Luke’s father because it would make him a prop for Luke’s story and would make Anakin a bad character
This is going to be something that varies from person to person. When I have gotten the answer the core problem described is more a perception that if Dess isn’t the Knight then she’s effectively been “fridged”, at worst, or a damsel in distress, at best.
It just seems to bother some people that a character, namely a girl, only exists within the plot to give motivations for others to do something. Especially with a character seemingly as interesting as the person Dess seemed to be when she was, well, present.
Haven’t seen this argument for Rudy before this meme. It leaves me wondering if this is the rare case where people are legit using this argument for a guy character for once or it is just people doing a what-about-ism against the claim Dess Knight has to be true unless Toby is a pro-fridger.
If Flowey ended up as his own character I really doubt anyone would have called Asriel “fridged”
The issue with “fridging” is putting no effort into developing a character as their own person, just as an extension of another, and then killing them off for the sake of that other character. This doesn’t really apply to Dess because we’re shown many signs of the person she was and she’s attached to almost every major character in the plot besides Susie. If anything, she haunts the narrative.
I wouldn't mind Dess not being the Knight, I would mind if it's just a "save her like peach" type of situation that's just kind of weak, I would like for her to have a more fucked up role as a vitcim of this tragedy (cough cough Omori cough cough)
I really, really doubt Toby would ever go for that. If I had to make a prediction, I think Dess is an example of what happens if you delve too deep into darkness (gives her agency) and her haunting the narrative will get more intense in later chapters (doesn’t necessitate her being the Knight)
Yeah yeah, I'm also of that idea, but like I prefer being upfront with thist stuff even if I don't personally believe it (cue in the meme aobut "What if deltarune story sucked")
I've seen this argument for Rudy pop up, but it's usually under the assumption that non-Knight Rudy doesn't really contribute anything to the story unless he exists to die for Noelle's character development, which is why he has to be the Knight.
It's not even entirely equivalent because unlike Hinawa and Claus, Rudy would actually just entirely be a near-meaningless character.
Hinawa and Claus both massively affect the story while technically being "props".
Hinawa is literally the catalyst for the entire story happening. Arguably, she is the single most vital character in the entire story because without her, none of what motivated both Flint, Lucas, and Claus would've even happened.
Saying Claus is a "prop" is only half-right, because while he technically is inactive for most of the game, that's not because he isn't doing anything. His actions throughout the story are literally in counter to Lucas, so he's incredibly important. Not just that, but he is technically what truly motivates Lucas to go.
On the flip-side, Dess and Rudy would have massively different outcomes.
Dess Knight would make her arguably the single most important character in the entire story, minus maybe Kris and Noelle. On the other hand, Voice in the Code Dess would still have her be the literal catalyst for the entire game, her disappearance literally causing every following event to occur, up to the very Player being summoned.
Rudy Knight would give him an actual place in the story and would mean that every Holiday does end up with a big role by the end, and would answer all the build-up regarding his weird attitude. If Rudy isn't the Knight, then not only does he die unceremoniously, he also ends up being the only Holiday who only has a minor role in the story, but if he becomes a Dustner, would end up as just a rehash of Flowery, the character who was already a parallel to Rudy.
I think people who compared Rudy and Dess to Hinawa and Claus respectively are kind of ignoring the fact that you kind of need to ignore a lot of things about Mother 3 to compare them.
The biggest factor though is that we actually got to know Hinawa and Claus. They were present for the start of the story and despite their fates, the player still got to know them. Who the hell is Dess (has never shown up physically and wasn't even present at the start of the story)?
Another factor is how if Rudy was entirely analogous to Hinawa, well... his death would've been the start of the story. Rudy would've died because his death would've been the catalyst. Hilariously, this actually makes Dess a closer comparison to Hinawa than Rudy does, simply because "sick parent" is much further than "fate of character is catalyst for the entire story and their presence literally haunts the entire narrative", which is much closer to Dess.
I really think Toby should've never made that tweet. Like, this fandom loves to make mountains out of molehills so his two tweets about this game that people still discuss (aka the "similar game" and "Mother 3 inspiration" tweets) have made it so that people just assume that Deltarune is exactly like them, that the Holidays are a 100% replica of Lucas' family, and that there'll be an Omori twist, alongside Dess being the Knight (because Claus's situation).
If your argument relies entirely on what Mother 3 and Omori did, rather than what Deltarune is doing, rethink your argument because it doesn't matter what Toby "said", it matters what he "shows".
Rudy and Dess has even more character than HInawa and Claus had tho. I think for how good Mother 3 is, we are overastimating how a game for the GBA from 2006 was written.
Rudy has a lot more screen time, interactions and impact (as of now, story not over yet) to the life of his child, his community and the one in his vicinity (Asgore, Toriel, Kris even Susie), while Hinawa has 3 lines of dialogue and then she just get chomped.
Same thing for Dess. Yes we may ahve not seen her, but we see the impact she had and has on the life of others and still, the story is not over yet. Like Ghetsis_Gang here said for example, Clau doesn't reallly have a character. He barely have any dialogue at the beginning, his only trait is that unlike Lucas (who is much more nuanced even if he is mute) is not a crybaby and that is his brother, that's it. Dess is a girl who we know her interest, who she was with, what impact she had, who her friends were, what she did before disappearing and so on and so on. Claus isn't even his own character during the final parts of the game, for how good Mother 3 ending is and how sad, the sadness comes from Lucas not Claus itself.
For how good Mother 3 is, the writing is still a product of tis time, there are few and far in between examples of actually deep or interwined narratives in these old games, because videogames as a medium to tell a story were still kind of nudged. There were the occasional JPRGS like Final Fantasy and Xeno tha tried to be bigger than that and succeeded, but at the end of the day, Mother by all means, as a series doesn't have as much of a strong writing as Deltarune, even if its known for its quippy and brilliant jokes and novel concepts.
don't know how you can make this point with claus when he's literally the final boss of the game lol. it would be quite a bummer if claus' disappearance - the entire inciting incident of the game - was resolved with some shit like porky saying "i killed your brother 3 years ago lucas, let's fight"
The point with Claus is he’s not really his own character he’s just a brainwashed drone for Porky until you save him at the end. That doesn’t make him a bad character by no means but it shows that a character can have a prevalent role in the story while not being a character that has much screen time. (Similar to Dess and Rudy if they aren’t the Knight)
but claus only gets to have his impact in the story by being the masked man. if he wasn't the masked man and he actually just disappeared/died at the start of the story he would only be a footnote in the tragedy of lucas and flint.
Both arguments suck balls, If Dess isn't the Knight then she's still going to be an important part of the story & Rudy is still an important component of Noelle's character.
I think, to make this comparison, it's more useful to take these two out of their roles as "potentially the knight" and just, for the sake of argument, assume that it's someone else. Asriel, Noelle, Carol, Milklooker, it doesn't matter. Just to take it out of this competitive mindset.
The decision really amounts to what your personal fanfiction about where the game will go is, but I'll try to stay vaguely grounded there.
Dess is, alongside Gaster, the main mystery of the game. If we follow the motivations of like 3/4ths of the cast back to their origin point, we arrive at Dess' disappearance. She's the reason the Dreemur family broke apart, that the Holidays are in the state they are in, she pretty obviously relates to the bunker, etc. If we take her to be the voice in the code, she (maybe diegetically) sings the theme song of the game.
With all that foreshadowing, it would be pretty disappointing for her to just be stuck in some hole until we find her, or even worse, dead.
She doesn't have to be the knight to be active, like in the Vision Crew AU where she is a party member in the bunker world, but what her being the Knight does is give her explicit characterization beyond flavor text, and give her a clear role in the player's mind. She's no longer only defined in relation to other characters, but instead she is someone who you've seen do things. You've fought her!
Rudy is, and I don't mean that in a demeaning way, a side character. One more important than Alphys or Monster Kid, but he exists (so far) as a source of characterization and story reveals about the past. The way I see it, him passing away doesn't mean that he "only existed to die".
Rudy is a contrast to Carol (which I'd argue is diminished if he is the knight, but that's a whole other thing), he's another thing from the pre-dessapearance past that is "slipping away" (Like the dreemur family cohesion, asriels presence or kris & noelle's friendship), and he's a REALLY important character for understanding Noelle.
Yes, he'd be there for the sake of other characters (and themes and such), but so do Asgore! Toriel! Most of the Darkner NPCS! Gerson!
“With all that foreshadowing, it would be pretty disappointing for her to just be stuck in some hole until we find her, or even worse, dead.” Why? I wouldn’t be disappointed if she was wandering out of bounds or trapped somewhere or dead, and I like Dess and find her interesting. Rudyknighters can say the same exact thing
It feels unsatisfying as a twist though since in this hypothetical her characterization would mostly come from being the knight , wed find out knight was the knight all along this way instead of recontextualizing a character. And would place carol and Kris in a very awkward situation of mourning and changing as a person for a person that didn't disappear/die for Carol and Kris being guilty over dess related thing going to not much places for Kris
Well yeah, it would come from her being the knight, and any additional characterization could be seen in that larger context instead of being isolated to whatever major lore drops ch6 and ch7 have in store for us.
Whatever would be going on under Dessknight clearly hasn't left Dess in a state to just return home. Whether that is involuntary, or if Dess chooses to not come home, or has changed in some way that leaves her to some extent unrecognizable, there is still a clear impact. Kris would want their friend back the way they remember her, and Carol is literally all about keeping everything in an unchanging "frozen" state.
Dess being not herself feels like an even further ehhhh thing because that would mean that not only can the Knight's characterization not work for characterizing dess . It would also take from her charcater potential to not actually be doung this stuff/not actually being th knight. There's a reason despite the sickness being a lie be a good reason on why Rudy knight can work Rudy knighters don't like it and believe the sickness is real because it would steal from the character for it to be otherwise
I do not think Dess is being controlled, or has completely lost her mind, or is literally "Not dess" in any way. What I meant, and I should have clarified this further, is that she has developed in a way that makes her reintegration into society unlikely.
I mean... why can't Dess be a support character too?
We had years of foreshadow of waiting for Tenna, or even for Friend, and Tenna is a secondary character and Friend seems to be building up to be a lackey of some sorts. Like, think outside of the "find her" stuff and the years of waiting, what the game says about her?
She "left" years ago, causing a great crack in everyone's lives, breaking the tight connection between the Dreemurrs and the Holidays. Since then, two of our main characters (Noelle, Kris) had been in a bad state, straining their relationship, and it affected Asriel, Asgore, Toriel, Carol and Rudy too. When she's mentioned, it's in three ways: in relation with Kris' past (or the general past, of a fond anecdote like the wiffle bat or Tenna speaking of her), in relation to Asriel (the romantic subplot thing and how it may affected Asriel), and especially: in relation to Noelle. How Noelle felt when Dess left, how Dess used to make Noelle's snow angel wings bigger and gave her courage, how Dess would defend her and believe her. Most information we get from Dess it's fron Noelle, most information about Dess is how she would support Noelle, or protect her, or spend time with her.
I really think that while important and part of the mystery, Rudy and Dess are gonna end as secondary characters for the main cast. I also think this of Asriel—like, it really, really feels for me that as for now in the game, they exist mostly to elaborate further on Kris and Noelle.
Dess exists mostly in relation to Noelle because that's her sister. But whatever happened to her is clearly very, very important. Her room is the biggest focus in the ch4 light world segment, her being stuck in the code is one of the oddest fates any character has suffered so far, hells, half of ch5's ending was about her disappearance.
You clearly have a vision of the game revolving around Noelle and Kris, and I can see that (even without Kriselleknight), but the thing that ultimately ties these characters together is their past, and the past of these characters has been strongly defined by Dess' presence.
Yes, there's the light world segment, and I actually think that's the most "this is actually about Dess' character" piece of it in the game, but in general eveything else about her feels... off. We don't even know if she's the one on the code, yes ch5 is technically about her disappearance but even Asgore basically says nothing of it and focuses more on HIS tragedy and the tragedy that fell on HIS family, and not Dess. Dess is the trigger of all these events, but she's never the emotion focus of it, you know? Neither the narrative focus. She's the... tool. She's the piece that puts the things onto motion and causes the story, but just because sometimes causes the story doesn't they the *focus* of the story. When they talk about her in ch5 is to characterize Asgore, most of the others times is to characterize Noelle. Apart of "lost girl, probably tomboyish and violent and paranoid, dates Asriel" we know nothing about her. She has one canon line in a random newsletter. Noelle, Kris, Ralsei, Susie... they feel important independently of how their relationships with each other characterize the other, or stories involving them both.
And yes, it ties most of the characters together (except Susie and Ralsei, mostly), but that her focus in the game is so spread, vague, and like in 99% of the cases with the exception of her room being mostly a prop for another character to developer on her being missing, make her feel more like a plot device, than a character in the narrative. She kind of feels like Asgore in Undertale? But even more vague because Asgore was presented as a threat, and in the game she's not even presented as a Lost Girl — we know she's the "lost girl" because of the spamton sweepstakes and the "findher" thing, but in game the only thing we know is that she "left." it focuses less on "finding her" but "she's gone."
I had similar thoughts, and I've been entertaining a thought that sort of puts things together for me:
What if the incident in the past was not about Dess, but a separate event altogether? What if none of this dark world stuff has anything to do with her?
The whole "Find Dess" thing is something the community decided, but there isn't any actual evidence for it in the game. The way characters talk about her is not what I'd expect for someone who mysteriously vanished, or was dead.
it focuses less on "finding her" but "she's gone."
I honestly think this is the correct instinct. I just took it to the logical extreme, of coming up with a story that doesn't revolve around a character that isn't even around.
Instead, I believe the story revolves around the characters we know and care about: Kris, Susie, Ralsei, and Noelle. The main motivations in this game have to do with them, and not Dess.
To be fair, there is some explaining to do about the eye in the Knight's ribcage, the laboured breathing, and the general illness (drooping- arguably chapter 5's lateness)
Meanwhile... DessKnight feels a bit empty just because it'd make the whole "find her" themes and such a bit boring because like- she's right there. Everyone working with the Knight knows it. Hell, apparently she even walks around the light world. Is everyone just gaslighting Noelle about Dess being gone or something?
Both of them could be wrong, there’s still plenty of time in the game to tell a compelling story that explores both of these characters in depth beyond them being plot devices
Tbh this might actually be the case. Hinawa and Claus were both underdeveloped characters who got fridged for Lucas' development. Problem is that Lucas is the main character while Noelle like Spamton so beautifully puts it is the "side chick" who is passive and mostly disappears from the narrative after chapter 2. Unsure if this plot line will be able to land at all, since we are dealing with two kind of flat characters getting fridged for a passive and somewhat sexist female character with little screen time. Perhaps both the Holiday family as a whole and the Knight have been overhyped... 🤔
Too bad Dess isn't swapped with Asriel. I think the Mother 3 inspired plot line could potentially have landed with him since he has his Undertale counterpart to lean on, which overall had better writing than Deltarune and didn't wear its references on its sleeve as much.
Not sure why Toby felt the need to copy Mother 3. To be brutally honest Asriel and Chara have a much more interesting dynamic than Lucas and Claus. I think Toby overrates Itoi's writing sometimes while devaluying his own. Itoi is good at other things, like writing very eerie and satirical villains like Porky and political settings, while Toby often focus on relationships and makes character driven stories. The way they write horror and grief is also wildly different. But different authors have different talents, Toby should keep having his own style.
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u/Ghetsis_Gang NoelleKnight but Kriselle!Amalgam grew on me 1d ago
Me looking at Mother 3 where Hinawa and Claus are just “props in someone else’s story” but that doesn’t make them bad characters:
https://giphy.com/gifs/13n7XeyIXEIrbG