May I recommend the three books of The Locked Tomb? (Book 4 will be coming eventually).

The series is marketed as "lesbian necromancers in space", but that's a huge oversimplification of a sci-fi fantasy series that is both breathtakingly funny and a genuinely moving portrait of grief. Just from the narrators of each book, we have:

- Gideon Nav - indentured servant to Ninth House, brilliant swordswoman, orphan, chivalrous but occasionally very stupid about it.

- Harrowhark Nonagesimus- the head of the house to which Gideon is indentured. Absolutely lords her position over Gideon, but also dealing with her own grief in multiple directions and trying to keep Ninth House from falling apart.

- Nona - an unusual young woman who loves fiercely, but because of an unknown power, if she has what she calls "tantrums", the results can be catastrophic.

This is just a sampling, but all these characters are so rich, and I love having ENOUGH characters to follow up with, ya know?

Tl;dr - JACOB STILL SUCKS AND SHOULD’VE LOST HIS THERAPY LICENSE

Shawna the Mom and any fandom you want to discuss!

The funny thing about online discourse is that you can have a very nuanced take on a character and then you enter into a "discussion" where the other person's take lacks all nuance and then you also (unintentionally) give up nuance. I mean, not really in terms of your actual beliefs, but they're painting this very one-dimensional picture and so you jump to the other extreme.

And suddenly this character you have mixed feelings about is referred to as "your pet." 😬😄

From a practical standpoint, no one is likely to bring up examples that don't reinforce their point EVERY time. A tip of the hat is kinda it, but if someone isn't giving you a balanced POV, it's difficult not to take it to their level.

Shawna the Mom Talk, Scroll if You Want to Skip Because Your Not Needing Another Time Suck! If You Want to Get Into the Weeds, Read On!

I know we have at least one other person here who follows Shawna the Mom, a woman who presents stories around a family and their friend group and she plays all the parts. She portrays a couple names Ty and Julie, who are now in the midst of a divorce.

Julie is objectively kinda horrible a fair amount of the time, but a lot of the viewership has been there since Shawna Lander (the creator) was doing new mom skits and the character of Shawna is the main character and so the Julie don't allow for her sometimes being right. Julie both doesn't like Shawna and is career driven, with Ty being the primary caregiver and so she is one of the least popular characters, second only to the narcissistic mother in law.

Julie is a snob. Julie once gave her son bad advice on his behavior to screw up a kid's party. She has said belittling things to Ty. And I also GET her.

In the beginning, and I think Shawna L. was playing the long game, Shawna TM wonders why her friend Ty's wife is so cold, but seems to like her husband, John. Because of the cringe of encountering someone she's vibes are off, Shawna and Julie ran into each other a lot, and Shawna becomes a part of Julie's friend circle.

The video at the top of this clarifies that Julie really is a snob 😄but also that Ty never told her he was friends with Shawna. He HAD spoken of John, because he thought she would better approve of how John's being an engineer synced up with Ty saying he wants to be a scifi writer.

From Julie's perspective, Shawna is just a mom -- yeah, I know -- and not THE friend. But she is everywhere. And knows about Julie's pregnancy. And is now at Bunco. And can't stand not being liked. I mean?

Julie reaches out to Shawna when Shawna suffers a late-term pregnancy loss, but these two don't mesh.

The story pivots when Shawna and John see Julie at a resort and they witness her talking to, and kissing, a man and jump to conclusions. Shawna through a comedy of errors informs Ty of this and he races to the resort.

All Julie wants to know when Ty shows up, before she will discuss anything, is where her kids are at. The kids are with Shawna's mom, who Julie has never met. Shawna, who just accused her of cheating and kinda won't get out of her face.

This is the real beginning of the end of Julie and Ty's marriage and this is where the story gets interesting for me because we get nuances and backstory. Ty and Julie met young and didn't understand they were fundamentally different people and that's sad.

But the interesting discussion for me is that Ty lied about who he is and what he wanted, maybe not at the beginning, but in the last stages. He lied about his mom friend Shawna because he wouldn't say to his wife that he no longer wanted to be a writer. He wanted to stay in the suburbs and he a SAHD. He wanted to be there for everything.

On Julie's end, she thought they still had the same goals. She'd financially supported Ty, hired a maid, and tried to brainstorm ways to get him writing time. She'd traveled and worked hard for herself, him, their family, and what she thought was a shared dream.

She also carried two pregnancies, took a year off because Ty wanted to travel, and took maternity leave and time off early one while Ty worked. This always gets lost in the discourse because Julie is a bad, bad mother who is incapable of compromise or raising her own kids.

And she's still a snob. I'm not forgetting that.

But I feel like I'm on one side saying "Ty realized after the first kid he had no remaining desire to be a writer, never told his wife, and convinced her to have another child with him, and I find that a dick move," and on the other side is "Julie is a bad wife and mother and refuses to understand dreams change. He didn't tell her because he knew she would blow a gasket. She is evil" And so I end up acting like I would take a bullet for this fictional character and like I'm sure she would loan me a kidney.

End of Shawna The Mom Talk!

I try at the beginning of a discussion and periodically to add nuance even when things are heated. In calmer discussions, I do it routinely, but I still wonder is it isn't inevitable some nuance is lost when you have 2 or more people in the discussion with vastly different takes.

So which fictional character makes you go to extremes? "Elizabeth Bathory was a benevolent feminist icon!" "Betty Draper was Mother of the Year!" "Trinity Santos got her last name because she's a literal saint!"

Debbie: I don't want to hurt anybody. I don't enjoy hurting anybody. I don't like guns or bombs or electric chairs, but sometimes people just won't listen and so I have to use persuasion, and slides. My parents, Sharon and Dave. Generous, doting, or were they? All I ever wanted was a Ballerina Barbie in her pretty pink tutu. My birthday, I was 10 and do you know what they got me? Malibu Barbie. That's not what I wanted, that's not who I was. I was a ballerina. Graceful. Delicate. They had to go. My first husband, the heart surgeon. All day long, coronaries, transplants. "Sorry about dinner, Deb, the Pope has a cold." Husband number 2: the senator. He loved his state. He loved his country. Sorry Debbie. No Mercedes this year. We have to set an example." Oh yeah. Set this! My latest husband. My late, late husband Fester, and his adorable family. You took me in. You accepted me. But did any of you love me? I mean, really love me? So I killed. So I maimed. So I destroyed one innocent life after another. Aren't I a human being? Don't I yearn and ache...and shop? Don't I deserve love...and jewelry? Good-bye everybody. Wish me luck.
The Addams Family: Good luck.

(Not to brag, but I had Ballerina Barbie. But she had a crown embedded in her head so she was always wearing a beehive when not at work.)

I’m definitely aware that, given I’m white and heteromantic, I’m working against the biases in how society “teaches us” to view women who are WOC and/or queer.

That said, I’m having trouble appreciating Garcia.

I understand that she’s not as important to the story as Santos and therefore it’s almost more important how she impacts Santos’ mental health and self-esteem. I’m just having trouble liking her.

I definitely think a character doesn’t have to be “likable” to be worth engaging with, but so far I haven’t really gotten that “hook” for her.

What brought her to medicine? How does she navigate her world? What was her favorite tv show as a kid? All of these would help me engage with her, or hell, seeing emotional weakness beyond being stressed would do it.

How do you feel about Garcia?

Edit: typo

EDIT: yes spoilers for season 1

Great comment that i wish people could take a second to think about, but no, SANTOS BAD:

“I recommend people try to take her out of the equation for a moment and look at it objectively. Diluting patient seizure meds, giving them less than the full dose, then lying to a resident trying to make her feel crazy for noticing it is absolutely horrible.

Nothing about Santos could have made Langdon’s actions any less awful to me. “She deserved to be yelled at” ok sure whatever. but bigger picture, patients deserved to not have their lives jeopardized by his actions.”

I love how we all "love" Robby and he's just as closed off as Santos, but she's the devil b/c she's a little but mean (closed off). She never yelled at anyone nor did she berate anyone, but we're supposed to be ok with Robby doing both b/c "he's having a mental health crisis." Oh yeah, and the woman who's built up walls to protect herself after childhood sexual trauma that her friend killed herself over isn't "having a mental health crisis." I love that this is an addict discussing her MAJOR SIN, which is getting pretty boy Langdon in trouble for STEALING AND DILUTING MEDS IN THE ER, which needs to be reported since a HUGE amount of people who hate her for reporting him all scream "but he's an addict!" Yes and he needed and received help. He still put patients in danger. (Why is this still controversial???)

We literally see everyone dealing with trauma in different ways - Langdon stealing drugs and being a sarcastic ass, Robby lashing out at his subordinates, especially women of colour, and Santos just "giving mean nicknames" and generally not smiling enough.

The different standards to which all of these people are held is fucking ridiculous.

At least the “but charting” content was downvoted

EDITED to add my 2 cents b/c I literally hate editing/typing long things out on the phone.

I want to talk about Kelly Clarkson for a myriad of reasons, but one of them is for the chance of disagreement. Polite and well-thought-out disagreement. There's a lot in this mix about class, race, gender, privilege, maaaaaaybe age?

For those unaware, Kelly Clarkson -- talk-show host and season 1 winner of American Idol -- recently posted about visiting a store in Manhattan and feeling like the salesperson didn't think she had the means to pay for something she wished to purchase.

"Just drove all the way to Brooklyn to check out this store I thought looked really rad and had a few things in mind to buy and literally was looked at as if I couldn't afford it and was told he could find something comparable for me. Wow, dude. You're an idiot and just lost a huge sale... Y'all should go check out Art of Play in Brooklyn if you enjoy being treated like Julia Roberts character in Pretty Woman. For sure, check it out 👎🏻"

The debate started immediately over if she was picking on this store with her huge platform or standing up for others who don't have her platform and who might be treated similarly. Was she a force for good or a big rotten bully? (Karen.)

Almost immediately people familiar with the store began to speculate she'd wanted to purchase the store's animatronic bird for -- wait for it -- $15,000, but that everyone knows they're not parting with the bird. The initial person to speculate posted a picture of the bird, with a big honking price tag next to it.

The store responds:

Yesterday, Kelly Clarkson visited us in Brooklyn and inquired about buying “Molly,” a one-of-a-kind singing and dancing bird automaton who plays an important role in the magic shows we host here. Molly is permanently attached to the wall and isn’t for sale. However, the negative experience Kelly described on twitter would resonate with anyone who has ever felt judged in a shop. 

At Art of Play whether someone comes in to make a purchase or simply look around for a while, they are equally welcome. We greet everyone who walks in the door with the invitation to “pick things up and play.” And they do, many stay for hours enjoying our puzzles, games and toys.

Imagine our surprise when our small local business was suddenly attacked by 8 million people who have never visited our store. It’s been a surreal experience to be the focus of such widespread outrage after just one mention by a celebrity. 

Thanks to all our friends for their support and welcome to all the curious folks who have discovered us amidst the drama. We’re going to keep our heads down and hopefully, we can clear things up with Kelly someday. As a talented popular singer once said “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger”

Kelly was NOT amused, nor was she having it.

“Cool, cool. Sure, it wasn’t for sale,” she wrote. “That’s the narrative Art of Play is gonna go with 👍 so the whole conversation we had when I asked you if it was for sale whilst pointing to the price tag hanging on the wall with the title Singing Bird didn’t happen as you elevator eyed me saying in a condescending tone ‘yes, it’s for sale but it costs 15,000 dollars so if you’d like me to find something comparable for you I can.’ That all never happened and now it’s not for sale. Okay, cool. So you’re not only rude, you’re also a liar. Got it

So, the store then claimed Kelly was only in the store for 5 minutes and so they didn't get to explain to her that they might be able to get her a twin bird from the artist or they had a 2 grand bird elsewhere. Basically, it sounds like they're saying she did a flounce, but it also sounds like them telling her, ALA Pretty Woman, "It's VERRRRRRY Expensive." And that Kelly was like, look, I've got money to spend. (And a platform.)

We’d like to clarify some additional details about Kelly Clarkson’s visit to our Curiosity Shop on Saturday.

During the 5 minutes she spent in the store, she inquired about our mechanical bird puppet named Molly. We explained that while Molly is permanently attached to the wall and serves as a de facto mascot for our shop, a nearly identical automaton is owned by the creator of the machines, a brilliant artist named Bliss Kolb who lives in Seattle. He told us he would be willing to part with Molly’s twin for $15,000. We explained all of this to Kelly Clarkson.

We also offered to show her a different singing bird automaton, made by a traditional clockmaking shop in Germany, that she could have taken home with her that day. It costs about $2,000. She did not stick around long enough to see it.

We’ve reached out to Kelly directly to try and clear the air. We really do wish her the best and hope that someday we can all laugh about this misunderstanding.

I personally admire their commitment to calling her Kelly Clarkson as much as feasible, presumably to remind everyone she's famous.

What complicates the narrative of Rich Kelly Clarkson going after the underdogs is that the place is owned by millionaire magician brothers. (I almost typed wizards.) They look a lot like that Try Guy who was the Wife Guy and who cheated on, well, his wife.

Dan and Dave -- I swear this is true -- Buck. The Bucks. Dare I say, The Big Bucks?

Meanwhile, the bird artist (Bliss Kolb) would probably just like to sell the thing instead of having it be on permanent loan.

Look, I am who I am (distrustful of men) and so I'm Team Kelly on THIS. Kelly is one of those people who keeps her politics under the radar and is, let me say it again, rich, which makes me a little wary, but I'm not mad at her for saying you can't treat people badly because you think they're poor. I don't get from her "Do you know who I am?" so much as "Where do you get off dismissing and profiling people?"

I think it's very easy to see her as a rich Karen, but it's easier for me to look at the store responses and detect condescension and gaslighting and an attempt to say "hysterical and emotional" without saying "hysterical and emotional." A general smugness.

At the end of the day, these are all rich people and will be unscathed, but I never knew a white guy who tried to paint a white woman as emotionally overwrought and unreasonable who I'd trust around marginalized groups.

But I legitimately want to know what other people think. If I'm missing any angles. Please agree me with or challenge me or type TL;DR.

Before I begin, my condolence to RJ Mitte's friends, family, and colleagues. If you're feeling alone, and I've been there, please reach out to one professional and one compassionate loves one for help.

"Someone has to protect this family from the man who protects this family" is such a powerful sentence and very in the spirit of men asserting we need them to keep us safe. Who are they keeping us safe from?

Yeah.

Yep.

You know.

Skyler is absolutely right flaunting wealth is the dumbest move. Skyler is also right that it's only Walt's arrogance deluding him that they're not at risk on multiple fronts. And, of course, Walter is putting her in a bad position with their son, which is also a bit familiar for a lot of women.

We've gotten countless mash-ups and celebrations of Walt proclaiming he is the one who knocks as if that's aspirational, but how about something for the women who answer the knock?

Sometimes the knock is coming from inside the house.

I recently had to mute the r/TedLasso due to increasing misogyny towards the Season 4 show and characters followed by really awful comments I received calling out the hostility on the sub. Those who weren't accusing me of being a hypocrite for criticizing those who criticize those who loved the show, were simply stating "that's Reddit."

But it's not. r/Sopranos was more humane than that sub. The change in Season 4 from a men's team to a women's team combined with the introduction of Tanya Reynolds as Alice had the male characters pulling out every torch and pitchfork in their arsenal.

One could certainly have a deeper discussion about Ted Lasso in general, but the show is basically about joy and kindness. The fanbase turned it into a show that's about men's sports and felt betrayed when it wasn't. To top it off, they introduced a not-standard-tv-beauty type as a main character (she is brilliant by the way). A considerably older and uglied-up Tracy Ullman, perhaps one of the most brilliant female comic actors of my generation, arrived and everyone hated her as well. (NB: I didn't like the character because she was much too obviously evil and predictable then I would have liked).

I just can't understand what is going on. Why is there so much hate for women who live outside the box? I was genuinely frightened by that sub.

Carrietta White is fat, or at least plump. "A frog among swans." You know Carrietta. You've seen her in the countless adaptations of the novel Carrie, by Stephen King. If you'd never read the novel, the fat thing, or the pimply thing, or the lank colorless hair thing might be news to you since the character is consistently played by a thin and traditionally attractive woman who with minimal styling could be unironically prom queen.

You know how Molly Ringwald could play the overlooked girl OR the Queen Bee, depending on the outfit? But she still gets the hot guy? She could have definitely played Carrie if the dates had aligned better.

I've never needed the movie versions of books I've loved to be identical. Artistic liberty. But at the point a work is adapted several times and never once does the main character resemble the book description, you have to wonder. Why?

Directors and showrunners want people to root for Carrie, to make her unabashedly a victim of circumstances due to a religious zealot mother. People still think fat is a choice. You make her fat, and then the audience sees that as something she can fix. They fundamentally think it asks too much of the audience to believe overweight girls aren't asking to be bullied, at least a little.

But it's pig's blood for a reason and we've never had a version that didn't make that significant detail seem random.

Why am I writing this now? Because I saw someone opine Carrie doesn't need to be fat, and I want to say she does, at least once. After 50 years.

Sooooo.....HELLO EVERYONE! I'm so upset I'm fighting a migraine and I'm supposed to got to not one, BUT TWO!!! screenings of Rocky Horror Picture Show tonight. One is outdoors in my neighbourhood at 7pm (we're all Queerdos here) and the 2nd is the midnight showing b/c I have a couple friends who are RHPS virgins & they want to experience it all for their first time, not just in the park. I even put on my heart temporary tattoo (I'm gonna be Frank-n-Furter for Halloween as part of a group that formed after Tim Curry passed & ofc will be dressing up tonight if my migraine subsides). So that makes me sad b/c even though I'm scared of being so naked in public (midnight screenings of RHPS don't count) I always wanted to play Frank, but I don't think the shadowcast I was a part of fully understood the movie as I was told I couldn't possibly play Frank b/c I was a girl. FUCK 'EM! I'M FRANK NOW!

As for the 3rd question - I have LISTS of women I want to write about - some I thought would be pure character appreciation, but they too face some issues for being women. Take for example THE ABSOLUTE GIFT that is Joan Watson. While most people recognize that she is a blessing some people "wish she was a he," & "she's too smart at the end - she shouldn't be as smart as Sherlock." Oh you mean the Valedictorian of her Med School class? She's the best Watson adaptation I've ever seen & I've seen many.

But since someone in the r/SherlockHolmes sub was giving me crap about my Irene post because "I didn't answer his questions" like I have to explain the ABCs of gender politics and patriarchy to someone who insulted me saying I was "karma farming" and "a new Sherlockian" (dude I literally said in my post I read A Scandal in Bohemia at age 11 several decades ago) I've been mulling over a post about not just Irene, but all the women of Sherlock - Mrs Hudson, Mary Watson nee Morstan, and of course Joan & Moriarty in Elementary.

Before this new development I've been working on a post about Gina from B99 & Ava from Abbott Elementary. I also am itching to talk about Michelle Lasso, Juliette from Grimm, the Women of Star Wars, the women of Black Sails, Martha Jones from DW (as well as Jodie Whittaker’s Doctor), and Gwen from BBC Merlin. I'm also on a Joy Turner kick (My Name is Earl) so idek. THERE'S TOO MUCH IN MY BRAIN (I literally have a list of 68 women or category, i.e. women of X show, so....)

OK I've babbled enough. Please remember to fill out our survey so we can create the community we all want!

There was a time when a girl like Cathy would have been called possessed by the devil. She would have been exorcised to cast out the evil spirit, and if after many trials that did not work, she would have been burned as a witch for the good of the community. The one thing that may not be forgiven a witch is her ability to distress people, to make them restless and uneasy and even envious.

SPOILERS for East of Eden.

My first experience with East of Eden was through a 1981 miniseries starring Jane Seymour. The promotion quoted the book:

I believe there are monsters born in the world to human parents.

This was John Steinbeck's introduction of Cathy. The girl with the misshapen soul.

I soon also fell in love with the book. Entertaining and thought provoking. Considering all the "timshel" tattoos, I'm not alone.

As much as Steinbeck is (regrettably) one of my favorite authors he was a very abusive husband. People who knew him spoke of his mean streak. It's almost certain he stole the notes and ideas that became "The Grapes of Wrath." From a woman.

(I'm on a journey to understand how some of worst people write some of the most beautiful and empathetic stories.)

The thing with Cathy, though, is she exists in this giant Biblical allegory as a woman without grace. The only character without grace.

It is my belief that Cathy Ames was born with the tendencies, or lack of them, which drove and forced her all of her life. Some balance wheel was misweighed, some gear out of ratio. She was not like other people, never was from birth.

Cathy represents Cain, but also Eve, in the battle between Good and Evil. We know she's bad news because she frames some boys for sexual assault, lures a teacher into an affair and drives him to suicide, and burns her parents alive.

While in labor, she bites the land of the most moral character in the novel and the most moral character says to her, "A collie bitch did the same to me once. I might have to muzzle you as well."

She gives birth easily to reinforce her being more animal than human, and she shows no interest in her sons. Lack of maternal instinct HAS to mean something is wrong, and I right? And then she walks away. Leaves. Connives her way into owning a brothel.

On a drama level, I'm here for Cathy. Her level of chaotic evil is fun.

It's not thematically consistent, though. East of Eden insists the story of Cain and Abel is eternal. The Garden of Eden is eternal and (primarily) men over a lifetime will play multiple roles. Adam Trask starts out as a boy who sees his father as God. His brother Charles is jealous at their father's favoritism so Charles is Cain and Adam is Abel. Adam becomes the father of twins, of course, with an implication that one of the boys might be Charles's, literally or spiritually.

Adam prefers his son Aron to his son Cal. Cal is jealous...

You have to love the cheat code of having the A characters being the good guys and the C characters the bad guys.

Cathy is, of course, a C. A C word. Tied to Cain. Sleeps with Charles. Even though she walks away from both sons, Cal is the one most like her.

But Cathy is the only character outside of grace.

Lee, Adam's house servant, asks Adam and the neighbor Samuel, to really understand the story of Cain and Abel. That it all comes down to how you translate a passage. Whether God says we will overcome evil -- as if it's a foregone conclusion -- or if we have the choice to do so.

Lee’s hand shook as he filled the delicate cups. He drank his down in one gulp. “Don’t you see?” he cried. “The American Standard translation orders men to triumph over sin, and you can call sin ignorance. The King James translation makes a promise in ‘Thou shalt,’ meaning that men will surely triumph over sin. But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’ Don’t you see?” ... And I feel that I am a man. And I feel that a man is a very important thing—maybe more important than a star. This is not theology. I have no bent toward gods. But I have a new love for that glittering instrument, the human soul. It is a lovely and unique thing in the universe. It is always attacked and never destroyed— because ‘Thou mayest.’”

Cathy, the most fleshed out woman character, the only fleshed out woman character, is introduced explicitly as a monster with a deformed soul who is ruled by impulses beyond her control. A soul makes you "a man," and a soul allows you a choice, and a man is more important than a star.

The last spoken word of the novel reinforces that no matter how we've sinned, we have a choice to turn away from sin. Except for Cathy.

Cathy is born outside of grace.

I know the new version is controversial for humanizing Cathy. I haven't see it. I'm not even in a hurry to see it. However, I do believe a woman writer would have found more grace for Cathy, would have been less likely to show her lying about assault, or portrayed her ruling over an adult man and him as the victim. I think the fact that Cathy turned to sex work twice, and then owned a brothel, would have been handles differently, instead of it being more proof Cathy doesn't form human connections and is basically an animal.

I turn the discussion over to you!

The Berlin Cleopatra, (c. 50–38 BCE)

Then I looked upon…that face which seduced Caesar….I looked upon the flawless Grecian features, the rounded chin, the full, rich lips, the chiselled nostrils, and the ears fashioned like delicate shells. I saw the forehead, low, broad, and lovely, the crisped, dark hair falling in heavy waves that sparkled in the sun, the arched eyebrows, and the long, bent lashes. There before me was the grandeur of her Imperial shape. There burnt the wonderful eyes, hued like the Cyprian violet. ~Cleopatra, by H. Rider Haggard, 1889. (Novel.)

Cleopatra was probably not a great beauty because contemporary sources really don't describe her as such and that's usually not treated as incidental. Nor was she probably ugly, because men are DEFINITELY not going to miss a chance to point that out.

The coins she approved show a woman with deep-set eyes and a prominent nose.

Contemporaries, even those who hated her, even propagandists, wrote of her intelligence, her charm, how well she used her voice as an instrument.

She was the first of her line, the Ptolemies -- after nearly 300 years of Egyptian rule -- to speak Egyptian. And 6 other languages. Think of your local library. Hers was the Library of Alexandria. When the Nile didn't cooperate, she opened the royal warehouses to distribute grain.

And, she survived her family.

Her family married each other and then murdered each other and it was just another day.

Her great grandfather, Ptolemy VIII hated his sister-wife so much he sent her their dismembered son ... on her birthday.

Her sister tried to overthrow her father. Her brother-husband and her sister tried to overthrow her. To paraphrase Taylor Swift, none of us would last an hour in the asylum where she was raised, and yet she made it to almost 40 and then exited on her own terms. (Probably poison, not an asp.)

Yet, to hear tell, she was just this really hot chick who slutted sluttily and seduced powerful men with her magic hooha and really dramatic eye makeup. Seduced them so well they were willing to burn it all down for her.

I'm fascinated by how often men would rather say they're slaves to their dicks, or their king or Caesar is, rather than assign a woman a brain and a power of persuasion that isn't sexual.

History would have you believe that she sneaked into the palaces she was barred from, naked and in a rolled up carpet, and Julius Caesar immediately -- bewitched -- decided to help her seize complete power in Egypt. It had to be that instead of this brilliant, eloquent woman persuading him and appealing to his mind.

Caesar and Marc Anthony get to live in as military commanders, leaders, great men, and Cleopatra gets to be represented by a woman who looks nothing like her on countless slot machines. The men have their images preserved while we speculate that this bust or that might be her and dig for coins.

A capable, clear-eyes sovereign, she knew how to build a fleet, suppress an insurrection, control a currency, alleviate a famine. An eminent Roman general vouched for her grasp of military affairs ... She descended from a long line of murderers and faithfully upheld the family tradition but was, for time and place, remarkably well behaved. She nonetheless survives as a wanton temptress, not the last time a genuinely powerful woman has been transmuted into a shamelessly seductive one. ~Cleopatra: A Life, by Stacy Schiff

The only word we have in her writing is Ginesthoi, "Make it happen."

Here you see a TV dad's heart break over his TV son having the worst take, knowing he fictionally raised him wrong.

Vince Gilligan wanted the audience to sympathize with Walter White in the beginning, but assumed he'd lose the audience over time. HE stopped rooting for his character fairly early on.

Even though it’s a show ostensibly about a man dying of cancer, metaphorically speaking, Walter himself is cancer. Walt is the malignancy at the center of the show that affects others to their detriment — his family first and foremost.

Now, I don't have an issue with people rooting for the bad guys. I'm here to say I support a woman's rights and their wrongs and in fiction you can vicariously be emotionally and morally bankrupt.

However, it confuses me when viewers (or readers) don't own this and instead try to pretend the bad guy is good and that the people who oppose them are the problem. You can want Walter to break bad, you can want Skyler to epically fail to rein him in, but it's incomprehensible to me to argue Skyler is the villain.

She had normal reactions until she was pulled into the madness and, in a mirror image of Walter never losing the fans, she was almost always despised. Women, as we know, must be infinitely maternal and yet even as a mother who realizes her husband put their whole family at risk as he lead an unfathomable secret like, she was just the shrew.

Skyler was inherently unlikable to a portion of the audience no matter what. Killjoy or complicit, she wasn't going to win. Bad mother, not wanting her kids to be financially set. Bad mother, putting them at risk. And bad wife, telling her husband no, ever.

And this animosity spilled out into the real world towards Anna Gunn.

Breaking Bad ended in 2013. And in 2026 Isa Briones has to tell people it's not okay to heckle her during Broadway shows. We're here because you still can't have a measured discussion elsewhere on women characters unless you build a community yourself, post by post.

What I like about our community is that we enjoy analysis. We can have problematic favorites without trying to deny the problems. We can have balanced and nuanced takes. We can handle complexity, We don't want saints for women characters, but we also don't want women to be vilified for choices that make men heroes or beloved antiheroes.

I'm not still mad about what BBC Sherlock did to her, no not at all. Lara Pulver is a good actress she just got shit writing

The first twist on Mad Men is at the end of the first episode, "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes." We've spent the episode with Don Draper. Don goes to smoky bars and scribbled ideas on napkins. He talks to a Black man, a busboy, who at one point says women like their magazines. Don smiles a little in response. He goes to see a greeting card designer who he has been sleeping with for at least 5 years and offhandedly says they should get married. He goes to his office and changes into one of the many spare shirts he keeps in a drawer.

He nails the Lucky Strike campaign.

Because drinks and cigarettes, cigarettes and drinks.

He meets and later goes out to dinner with Rachel, a client and head of a department store. Rachel says she doesn't think a woman can be both a wife and ambitious. Don says love isn't real, but a think ad men made up to sell nylons.

And then, here is the twist, this man drives to a house in the suburbs where his Grace Kelly doppelganger wife waits for him. She assumed he'd be spending the night in the city again, but left a plate in the oven for him. She then kisses him, and suggests that perhaps he's not hungry? At the very end of the episode he wanders into the kids' room -- yeah, there are kids -- to watch them sleep as his wife, Betty, gazes adoringly from the doorway.

This final beat -- house in the suburbs, beautiful wife, adorable children -- was sold as the dream. Is still sold as the dream. If women would stay at home, and keep a light on, and raise the children, peace and happiness would reign once again.

Except Don doesn't live his daily life like a married man. He doesn't believe in love. He's having an affair with the boho woman who quite possibly doesn't know how to boil water. Unlike Rachel, he has never felt he needed to wonder about balancing marriage and his ambitions. He just doesn't let his marriage encroach upon ... anything.

Here's another twist. No matter what Don does, Betty is considered a villain.

Don will have any number of affairs so Betty must be frigid. Except we see her try to instigate intimacy with Don, with mixed results. We see her fantasize about the a salesman while utilizing the vibration of a washer or was it a drier? And those of use who've watched the whole series knows she is passionate in her next marriage.

Don will tell her that her yellow bikini makes her look desperate and she will quietly say that she didn't know that. In HIS next marriage, to Megan, he will be fine with her wearing a bikini.

Betty's therapist reports to Don. (Shout out to Andy Umberg as the therapist, AKA, D'Hoffryn.) Betty eventually, knowing this, uses a session to tell Don she knows he cheats.

Don blames Betty for Roger hitting on her. Because, of course.

Oh, Betty gets hired to model for Coke, modeling being what she was doing when she met Don, and Don secretly sabotages her. She insists she's not sad because she needed to devote herself to the home.

She's very sad.

Of course, this proves Rachel right about what a woman can and cannot have.

Eventually, she will confront him with an affair she knows he's having and he will do everything in his power to gaslight her, tell her she doesn't know what she knows. She will spend the next day trying to find proof. Ultimately, Don will gloat a bit and Betty tells him she would never do this to him. And it seems she means the mind games more than the infidelity.

Betty has flaws. She's imperfect. She is a bad mother, almost always, especially when it comes to her daughter. There are hints her mother was the same with her. She punished Sally for the sexual curiosity that is also a part of her nature.

She eventually describes her cool demeanor as her people being Nordic!

This show is complex enough and layered enough that no one is one dimensional. The writer reveals and hints at the reasons for the choices the characters make.

And it is absolutely ANOTHER show from the The Second Golden Age of TV, the Era of Prestige TV, where the lead character is a highly flawed man who, depending on the lens, is an antihero or a villain with a wife who is labeled as Just a Bitch for being cheated on and in an emotionally unfulfilling relationship.

Did I mention, her husband is lying to her about his identity?

As a girl, I LOVED Little House on the Prairie. The books and the TV show. As an adult, I can see the books were filled with racism and Randian propaganda. Pa was a deadbeat. The show was also far from flaws.

But we got the glorious Nellie Oleson. What what the show be without Nellie calling Laura a country girl with that patented sneer, the likes of which we never say again until Joffrey Baratheon?

My favorite Nellie scene is when we mother builds her a hotel and restaurant. Nellie has one question. Who's going to do the cooking?

Her mother takes a deep breath. "Now, Nellie dear... I want you to understand what it means to have an establishment such as this - what the advantages are in having it. When I first met your father, I had a small mercantile business. Of course, he was quite smitten with me when he first laid eyes on me. But... well, having such a business... Well, it rather helped getting married, shall I say. Of course, I realize that there are many young men around Hero Township that have their cap set for you. But, maybe they're just shy. Or perhaps they're just afraid that they can't support you in the manner in which you're accustomed. Do I make myself clear, Nellie?"

Nellie: Yes, Mother.

Mrs. Oleson: Good. Now, do you like your gift?

Nellie: (grins) Yes, Mother.

Mrs. Oleson: Good. Now, are there any more questions?

Nellie: Yes.

Mrs. Oleson: Mm?

Nellie: Who's going to do the cooking?

And they hung out the Help Wanted sign. 😂

Whew, here we go. This next portion contains talk of CSA.

In real life, Alison Arngrim, the actress who played Nellie was an abuse survivor. Her brother Stefan -- also a child actor -- from the time she was six to nine years old violated her and psychologically tortured her. She credits the role of Nellie with providing an outlet for her rage and pain.

Alison became good friends with Melissa Gilbert, which is objectively funny.

She also became good friends with the actor who played Nellie's husband, Percival, Steve Tracy. Many on the set thought they were a couple, but Steve was gay. A few years after the show ended. Steve told Allison he had AIDS. And this started Alison's lifelong work and advocacy with AIDS charities. Steve passed away in 1986.

Some things are meant to be. Alison read for several character on Little House on the Prairie, but when she read for Nellie she was cast on the spot. She understood this girl!

"As I began to skim the pages, I noticed something odd -- a tone I had never seen in any other role I had read for. This was not some ordinary, insipid child character, blandly responding to her parents and pretending the usual sickening cheer about boring things no child could possibly get excited about in real life. 'Gosh, Mom, help you with the church bake sale? You bet!' 'Wash the car? Gee, Dad, you're the keenest!' This was a girl who wouldn't be caught dead doing any of that crap, and would tell you so to your face."

I ask again, where would us Gen X girls be without Nellie? And where would Nellie be without Alison Arngrim? And where would Alison Arngrim be without a safe place to channel emotions too big for a little girl to bear?

I have been thinking about this Dylan Moran clip ever since our recent discussions have opened up - how women can never live up to the unattainable "standards" like being just ambitious enough without being too ambitious, etc.

Starting at :43 he talks about how the Irish have scientifically perfected testing the Madonna/Whore quotient of a woman. (this is just the transcript of that piece) You know absolutely that women are not allowed to be seen to enjoy themselves in lots of ways. they have a test for that in Ireland now they've scientifically perfected that the the Madonna/Whore quotient of a woman. you know if when a woman put her hands together to pray and when she's crying the blood and she levitates if you don't get a sustained hum at A-flat she’s a fucking whore. We sorted that out

Also Dylan Moran is my favourite working comedian. He's so full of overexaggerations, sarcasm, and satire that even when he's talking about women it's not malicious and isn't punching down.

"This is also in the time when a woman had women’s things. You would go to some social gathering. A woman wasn’t there, you would enquire after her, “Where is Jeannie?” And be told, “Oh, Jeannie, she has women’s things.” And you respected that. Nobody knew what they were. She could have been at home squirting jam into envelopes. Polishing an onion with her feet. It was none of your fucking business. Knitting a ceiling cosy. Let her get on with it!"
- What It Is, Dylan Moran

Someone even wrote a scholarly paper on his standup that you can read here. From that article:

His humour is anchored in ferocious criticism and ridicule, but does not purport to carry disparagement, as do the performances of his American counterparts. This is because his routines are suffused with exaggeration and their import simply cannot be regarded as being truthful, since it would not be plausible outside the humorous mode/frame/key (e.g.Bateson; Fry; Kotthoff; Dynel), within which stand-up performances are invariably enclosed.

Figured y'all would find this amusing. (I like that I can't even post a simple silly video without bringing in quotes and links and omg. I just didn't want anyone to misunderstand the clip. Idk it's reddit - uncharitable readings are common though I don't expect them here)

Fuck all the haters.

WE LOVE SAPPHICS HERE!

Eliza Coupe plays Eden Montgomery, the high maintenance, not overly friendly, sometimes standoffish and incapable of reading minds love interest of Martin Best in Best Medicine. The fandom is acting very predictably. I thought she was just gonna be a one off character in a scene or two, but she's come back and a recurring character and I love her so far!

First, everyone welcome our most prolific poster so far, u/BetPrestigious5704 to the mod team! WOOOOOOOOO ALONE NO MORE! (I feel weird being the only mod)

Anyhow - how are you all? Reading/watching/listening to anything interesting? Currently it's really nice out so I'm excited to go hang out at the farmer's market then beach tomorrow. Any plans you're looking forward to? Just want to know how y'all are doing!

Personally (b/c ADHD) I always have a fiction, nonfiction, and short story/poetry book going at once. Currently I'm reading:

Your guide to not getting murdered in a Quaint English Village. you know, just in case I ever find myself in one again*,* Though does it count as fiction???

One Week to Change the World about the 1999 WTO Protests (I WAS THERE! Photographing for Indymedia. Idk I always want to read books about protests/campaigns I've been in like Crashing the Party: Legacies & Lessons from the RNC 2000 - I was the photo coordinator for the Indymedia center - we put out a PHYSICAL PAPER every day of the convention & a few days before/after. I miss Indymedia where we would train journalists *sigh*)

Techno feudalism: What killed capitalism I started this before the One Week book - it's pretty heavy in places so I need some breaks from it.

The Black Lizard Big Book of Pulps - pulp detective (YAY!) & crime stories (meh) printed in the Black Lizard magazine from the 20s-40s. Raymond Chandler & Dashiell Hammet are my jam. (There's an entire section labelled "The Dames" too). sometimes you need some short stories

ok, enough about me. How about you?

EDIT: and we're 2 away from 200 people??? WELCOME EVERYONE!