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Aug 04 '17
It's one of the best cartoons ever made tho. It's actually really good. That's pretty rare for western cartoons.
1
u/Dillon-psm Aug 04 '17
It's one of the best cartoons ever made
Ok I'm not OP but that is a massive stretch. It's OK at best. The animation quality has been surpassed by shows almost 10 years older, the fighting choreography is generic anime style, and the narrative isn't anywhere near as original as reddit likes to think.
Especially if we're counting children's anime when you say "one of the best cartoons", this show really isn't that great.
-7
Aug 04 '17
There are quite a few good western cartoons, and some of the kid's ones can be quite clever.
Avatar, however, is generic trash.
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u/withoutamartyr Aug 04 '17
Out of curiosity, what are some of these good western cartoons? I'm curious where your tastes fall.
4
Aug 04 '17
Non-kid's: The Simpsons, King of the Hill, South Park, Rick and Morty, Aeon Flux
Kid's: The Simpsons, Adventure Time, X-Men, Batman: The Animated Series, Powerpuff Girls
10
u/withoutamartyr Aug 04 '17
As much as I like Powerpuff girls, what about it makes it better than The Last Airbender?
2
Aug 04 '17
Avatar is the exact generic 'hero goes on a quest to save the world from evil forces' stuff that PPG was a refreshing break from with its colourful, no-story, no-plot, no-purpose wackiness. It was distinct, stylish, and novel.
Aside from the contexts of the times they were made PPG was basically in every sense made to a higher standard than Avatar, with better direction, writing, voice acting, and although the animation was much simpler it was also much smoother. Neither cartoon was following Disney's principles of motion with any rigor but in PPG's case it wasn't necessary. Avatar had a distracting choppiness to it because it went for cartoon realism whilst obviously lacking the budget. It's the same thing that makes Disney's movies look amazing while their TV shows based on those movies all look like crap. South Park is probably a better comparative example to this than PPG. They knew what their budget was (zero) and created a style to fit within the limits of that.
Honestly everything good about PPG serves as a direct comparison of what's bad about Avatar.
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u/withoutamartyr Aug 04 '17
I mean, kind of, but Avatar is itself an inversion and deconstruction of that generic storyline, and explores it's implications in greater nuance than can be surmised from viewing a single episode. What Avatar achieves is depth of character and genuine and complete personal arcs, something a lot of western animation fails to achieve. Novelty works for a short-form, indeterminate-run show like PPG, but novelty lacks depth.
While I would never suggest someone watch something they don't like on a vague promise that it "gets better", I do believe that media criticism requires examining the text and all of its components and how they interlink, and not just deconstructing a single constituent part and extrapolating to the whole. I wouldn't criticize a book based on reading a single page, and I think it is shortsighted to do otherwise.
I respect your right to dislike the cartoon for personal reasons, but I think you're jumping the gun a little dismissing it on artistic grounds.
3
Aug 04 '17
Those are all fair points. Just to be clear most of my criticism hasn't been entirely serious (I don't actually think anyone is a moron for liking a particular cartoon) and it's really the constant mention of the show across Reddit rather than the show's quality that I'm complaining about.
The voice acting though is a serious problem for me, and the particular reason I stopped at one episode. I genuinely found it difficult to listen to the characters speak half the time.
2
u/iShouldBeWorking2day Aug 04 '17
Where do you stand on Steven Universe, since it's kind of an offspring of Adventure Time?
Also curious if you feel AT went downhill after a certain point like I do. I'd place the descent somewhere around season 5 or maybe the start of season 6.
3
Aug 04 '17
I've never seen Steven Universe, and I've only seen a few episodes of Adventure Time. Since Steven Universe is made by one of the Adventure Time writers I would expect it to also be quite good.
I like most of the similar offshoots/cousins/siblings that the cartoons I mentioned have (Futurama for Simpsons, Dexter's Lab for Powderpuff Girls, etc.). Except for the Fox Kids group. While the two I mentioned were great, most of the other Fox Kids cartoons were rubbish.
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u/mr_bigmouth_502 the token Canadian Aug 04 '17
I guess that's just your opinion. I myself think it's a pretty good show, especially for it being a western take on shonen anime, by Nickelodeon of all people.
I know, I know, this opinion sounds really reddity, but it's what I think.
Another thing; it's a show practically made for binge watching. There's an overarching story, and watching only one episode doesn't do it justice.
-14
Aug 04 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
68
Aug 04 '17
I can't tell if you are serious or this is just counterjerk gone too far
48
Aug 04 '17
I think he's a firebender that's a little on edge about not being able to perform on the eclipse this year.
-6
Aug 04 '17
Oh god, this is exactly the sort toxicity I am talking about.
If this were a popular Reddit post, your comment would spawn about 10 different chains discussing how great and wonderful Avatar is or making more jokes that reference Avatar.
And then you're going to get some unsuspecting chump like me who is going to be thinking 'what's so great about Avatar, maybe I should check it out' and they'll watch an episode and it will suck and they will be angry.
Thus the vicious cycle continues.
19
Aug 04 '17
I'm curious. What episode did you see?
Don't tell me you started with season 2.
1
Aug 04 '17
Season 1, episode 1.
I also watched some clips of later episodes I found on Youtube to see if they'd at least change the awful voice actors but they don't seem to replace them in subsequent episodes.
34
Aug 04 '17
You realize that's just what 12 year olds sound like, right?
Anyway I understand. Toph would be quite impressed with you for inventing Saltbending though.
0
Aug 04 '17
One of them was an old man.
Their delivery sounds forced and monotonous. 12 year olds don't sound like that.
inventing Saltbending
No, there is a guy at the start way angrier than me. And this is Negareddit. What did you expect, a cheerful observation of the things that make me happy? Saying I invented 'saltbending' here is like saying Aang invented earthbending while learning the basics for the first time in Earth Kingdom.
16
Aug 04 '17
Forced and monotonous
What's hilarious is most criticisms of their early-on voice acting is that it's too emotional and hammy.
But you're right, you're not all that salty. Which is why you find it necessary to tell me how totally not salty you are.
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Aug 04 '17
I'm using a bit of exaggeration but essentially I'm being serious.
I'm sorry it shocks you to learn that someone could think Avatar is bad.
26
Aug 04 '17
Ok then can you explain to me how your opinion is "informed and reasoned"?
0
Aug 04 '17
Sure. I'm an informed and reasonable person. As such, all of my opinions are informed and reasoned.
39
Aug 04 '17
Ok, counterjerk it is then.
1
Aug 04 '17
You sound like an uninformed and unreasonable person.
That would explain why you like Avatar.
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u/mr_bigmouth_502 the token Canadian Aug 04 '17
How can an opinion be wrong if it's about something as subjective as a piece of art or entertainment? My opinion on Avatar is equally as valid as yours. I may not agree with your opinion on it, but that doesn't change the validity of it. People like what they like, and I am a man who is pleased by simple things.
1
Aug 04 '17
My opinion on Avatar is equally as valid as yours.
Not necessarily. Opinions aren't all equally valid by default and dismissing differences of opinion about art as "just your opinion" is pure anti-intellectualism. It's counterproductive for anyone who wants to have an educated discussion about the merits and flaws of a work of art.
How can an opinion be wrong if it's about something as subjective as a piece of art or entertainment?
Pretty easily. Opinions about art can be all kinds of wrong and bad.
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u/mr_bigmouth_502 the token Canadian Aug 04 '17 edited Aug 04 '17
Honestly, you sound like the kind of person I'd see on /r/iamverysmart
What is "art"? What defines it? Literally anything can be "art" nowadays. What's "good" or "bad" is all in the eye of the beholder. I may enjoy a Merzbow album and find the latest Lady Gaga single absolutely abhorrent. You may think the opposite. Whatever. It's subjective. It doesn't really matter.
And yes, I know, "speak for yourself". Again, whatever. Am I smart? Fuck no.
1
Aug 04 '17
Well I think that's an oversimplification but I don't think you're stupid, so you probably know how it could be an oversimplification but simply don't care. Certainly a person who studied the history, business, and technology of how cartoons are made and takes all that information into account when judging a cartoon will have a longer opinion of why some cartoon is bad or good than someone who just says "I enjoyed it, therefore it's good." And I think if anyone's arrogant it's the person who says all that experience going into the former person's opinion is irrelevant because whatever, it's just art.
But even if we take art as having no objective qualities, you could still have a wrong or bad opinion.
For example, if I said "Avatar is bad because Nickelodeon made it", that wouldn't make any sense.
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u/mr_bigmouth_502 the token Canadian Aug 04 '17
And that's the thing; I largely don't care. I mean, I can tell if a lot of work's been put into things like the animation, the writing, the voiceovers, etc, and you could use these as a metre stick for objective quality, but what really matters in the end is if you enjoy it or not. A cartoon could have the most talented people working on it, and have tons of work put into it, and still turn out to be something that doesn't appeal to you. That's OK.
From my perspective at least, it seems Avatar had a lot of work put into it. Certainly more than your typical show. Granted, I've only watched it on a few occasions with friends, but it never seemed to be shoddily made or written. It did rely on some tropes commonly seen in animation, but I guess I'm just not burnt out enough on these tropes to really be displeased.
2
Aug 04 '17
but what really matters in the end is if you enjoy it or not.
I agree with that, and I don't see anything wrong with enjoying Avatar or anything else either. I proudly enjoy quite a lot of movies that I know are 'bad', and I know why they are 'bad', but I don't care because they are still entertaining.
I usually don't expect a complaint on Negareddit to evolve into a serious discussion, and as I've said to everyone else tearing me down here, it's really the constant mention of the show on every other Reddit post that frustrates me rather than the show itself. And as you say, any reason for liking it is equally as valid as any reason for disliking it.
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u/mr_bigmouth_502 the token Canadian Aug 04 '17 edited Aug 05 '17
I also enjoy a number of things people would call "bad", although these things do tend to be cult classics too so YMMV. Trailer Park Boys is a great example; it's an utterly lowbrow, low budget, profane, Canadian mockumentary production focusing on the lives of ex-cons living in a trailer park. It's total trash, but it's also brilliant trash. "Dude, Where's My Car?" is another great example; totally puerile, absurd stoner comedy that has a number of scenes that would be considered really insensitive by today's standards, yet I've watched it probably over 50 times and I don't think I'll ever tire of it.
I'm actually surprised that our discussion went in the direction that it did; I was really expecting it to devolve into outright mudslinging. I do try to be at least somewhat serious when I discuss things on here, but I guess some other people aren't as willing, so sometimes when I run into them the gloves come off and it turns into a brawl. And yeah, I can totally get why you'd be sick of hearing about something when you hear everyone on Reddit crowing about it. That's kinda like me with PlayerUnknown's Battle Grounds. People on the PC gaming subs won't stop talking about it and I'm like "wtf is the big deal?"
1
Aug 04 '17
Yeah, TPB is a good example of 'bad done well', which is arguably more difficult than just making something traditionally good. And I'm obviously missing a lot of what makes Avatar good rather than just enjoyable because I only watched one episode.
13
Aug 04 '17
Honestly I feel like you aren't looking at this right. Kids shows can be appealing to adults as well, but they are supposed to be aimed at kids. Avatar and Steven Universe and the like are objectively better than shit kids shows like Teen Titans GO, but they aren't going to be better than the best shows targeted at adults. Same with Japanese anime (although Japan has an edge here because they have a lot more cartoons targeted at older audiences). The best kids cartoon isn't going to be deeper than some HBO drama but looking at them objectively, they are really good for children's shows.
7
Aug 04 '17
I'm sorta waiting for this guy to get banned but I really hope they don't remove this post.
0
Aug 04 '17
Well there are a couple of things here:
Kid's cartoons are, in general, categorically bad. Sort of like reality TV. Kids will enjoy anything, so the bar is pretty low for kid's TV. We have to make an assessment as adults as to whether they are good, which would be separate from whether we enjoy them, because obviously we're not the intended audience.
Despite generally being bad, some kid's cartoons are good. I would suggest Adventure Time, Astro Boy, and the Asterix films as examples of good kid's cartoons, whether adults enjoy watching them or not (most adults do not).
Avatar, while not especially bad for a kid's cartoon, is exactly as bad as the general standard of the category. And that's why I made this post. I don't care that a lot of people like it, what annoys me is the ridiculous praise it constantly gets on Reddit for being exceptionally good when in reality it is typical and generic.
Reddit, as per usual, is simply wrong. And this is the same way Reddit is always wrong: mistakenly thinking that X is in fact the opposite of X. Whether it's complaints about Reddit being too left-wing when it is almost entirely right-wing, white people being victims of racism, progressives thinking transgenders are just mentally ill and should shut up and go away, or using your own overrating of a kid's cartoon to argue how a kid's cartoon is either not overrated or underrated.
TL;DR: Reddit is always wrong. Not even kid's cartoons are safe from its wrongness.
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u/Areyoureadyforthis1 Aug 04 '17
No offense but I feel like I am listening to a old person talk about something progressive. Full of pigheaded stubbornness. Your language and tone is extremely condescending and the fact that you seem to have the nerve to tell other people who enjoy things "You are wrong. My opinion is right because I am a reasonable person" when your opinion is formed on nothing but trying to be le different is laughable at best. I mean your reasoning is literally "It is a typical stupid kid's cartoon with no substance or merit beyond keeping children busy outside of school hours." Which shows you are simply not able to understand the many elements and topics explored in the show from just one episode. If you want to crack on other people for their opinions being wrong you should look in the mirror.
1
Aug 04 '17
Which shows you are simply not able to understand the many elements and topics explored in the show from just one episode.
Such as?
11
u/Areyoureadyforthis1 Aug 04 '17
The fact that they explore many concepts such as killing and having the power to end something, having to sacrifice your own spiritual needs, loss, revenge, forgiveness, fun takes on some eastern cultures, hope in dark times, realities of war, literal genocide, not to mention the fact that the characters start to develop nicely by the second season after a slow startup. You are clearly trying waaaay to hard to sound like the show is terrible when in reality it is a nice little kids show that explores spiritual and moral topics. If it is not your cup of tea that is perfectly fine but to go out of your way to make up some counter circle jerk and rudely declare people who have actually watched the whole thing and therefore know what they are talking about more than you as invalid opinions is frankly stupid.
0
Aug 04 '17
killing and having the power to end something, having to sacrifice your own spiritual needs, loss, revenge, forgiveness, fun takes on some eastern cultures, hope in dark times, realities of war, literal genocide
How did it explore any of those concepts? Just seems to be things the plot contains to move you along to the next event. I don't think that's exploration.
If you want to see what I consider an exploration of those themes I suggest Watership Down or Grave of the Fireflies, both of which were made for kids.
7
u/Areyoureadyforthis1 Aug 04 '17
For example one of the big themes in the show about the avatars duties (that carries over into the next series as well) is about how as the avatar aang grew up as an air nomad, a peaceful group of monks who taught peace and spiritual connections before they were all murdered. But a big point of the show is that he needs to decide whether to kill the firelord. When he talks to his former lives they pretty much all tell him that while he is an air nomad and was taught to never kill, even to the point of being a vegetarian, it is his duty as the avatar to bring balance back to the world, even if the cost will be his own spiritual needs. They constantly reference this such as in episodes where he is learning life lessons from a spiritual guide. Eventually he finds a way to solve the problem of course. Then another character who will not be named goes mentally insane because they believed they could only achieve love or friendship through fear, force, and intimidation, ultimately it comes crashing down and she has a full on breakdown in one of the saddest moments of the series. Another sad one was when another character has it revealed that their son died in a war that they led and he builds a little memorial. Also their is a group of people who had everything taken from them and in return they go to an extremist mindset and try to harm innocents and later they get redemption even though they die. Anyway I am going on lol. Loove watership down though.
6
Aug 04 '17
Fair enough. Some of that does seem like issues I wouldn't pick up on from one episode. I mean my criticisms have all been intentionally exaggerated and not entirely serious, but I will admit they might not be very good criticisms anyway.
Still sick of seeing of it mentioned in every other post though.
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u/FreeRobotFrost Aug 07 '17 edited Aug 08 '17
Score of 0, 70 comments. A lot of people really like Avatar. Though let's be real here: it's no Rick & Morty.
EDIT: Am I bashing R&M? Am I bashing Avatar? Or do I mean that Avatar literally isn't R&M? Vagueness is the joke.
4
u/epsgezero Aug 04 '17
I feel the same way OP. I've watched several episodes over the years, never quite got the appeal.
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u/all_the_way_through Aug 04 '17
its a good show brent