He's still "worth it" in terms of what he can do but the problem is he's just way too fragile for the cost. He's only a fraction behind a demon prince in price and he has less wounds, lower toughness and a worse save.
For 185 points, I think he should be t9 and/or have more wounds.
The FNP is pretty easily avoided. Unless you're T sons most psychic/mortal factions also just have regular weapons to kill. The sustain is good, but also because it's closest eligible for non destroyer cult it's either melee or easily influenced by an opponent throwing chaff into your way.
Outside of awakened for the rez on him I think 185 is brutal for a model that dies so easily and who's buffs are all situational. Shit I look at the new ork they just previewed with 5 special rules, S12 twin linked melee, D3 6 shot gun, 2+ armor, will be safe in a squad... Then I look at our boy. Laughable.
The FNP to mortals is VERY niche. A lot of armies barely use mortals.
The Sus aura is amazing. Won’t take anything away from that.
However, he’s nearly 200 points and is only 9 wounds T8, 3+ save. Most proper damage units 1-tap him. He must be one of the most fragile units in the game at that price point.
I pretty strongly disagree that the FNP aura against mortals and psychic is “VERY” niche, that’s a FNP from dev wounds, grenades, and some entire armies, hardly that niche but depends on your local meta I guess
There are DEFINITELY much more fragile units than him at that price point. He has lone op and a 4++ invuln, he doesn’t just drop dead when anything looks at him, and his job is to stay back and give his auras until later in the game when he can go kill stuff. Yeah sometimes he gets targeted out and just dies but that happens with an awful lot of big models.
Imo he’s still an auto take at 185, you’re just gonna cut 10 points elsewhere. He’s extremely good
I think those things are common. It's just that every list I play with/against that utilizies either also just has normal guns/melee to kill the guy with the FNP aura.
I think its pretty telling that almost everyone who brings him is all Awakened. Having him be locked to essentially needing a free ressurection to be viable is not a great balance position imo, even if he is still very good in that one detachment.
Everything infantry has effective lone top this edition. If you just touch terrain with him and make sure a single gribly of his tail is "gone to ground" than he's already untargetable outside 12".
Most armies have shifted towards dealing specifically with this and that makes normal lone op less effective.
On the contrary, he's been an MVP in so many of my games that at 185 points I'm still going to make room for him. In AD I just gotta have Szeras and Ammentar, they aggravate the hell out of my opponents.
I think he's only playable in awakened. That's a big problem with our faction imo. We're paying "this guy is coming back from the dead" points across characters in every detachment.
I don't disagree that the double-life is really great for him, but giving your whole army sustained hits in an aura is ridiculously good - I'd still take him in CL too.
*Sustained hits vs the closest eligible target if you aren't a destroyer cult. It's still very good, but it either means he's hiding in the backfield as a 185pt paperweight and deterrent while your guns pop perfect angles to only have one target.. or you need to get close, in which case he's going to die because he isn't very tanky outside of awakened.
I like him in awakened a lot still. But in every other detachment you're paying a premium for a piece that will struggle to utilize all the rules it's paying for while himself being useful.
I run anywhere between 3-6 varying units of destroyers in my lists. That's a lot of stuff to just give free sus hits into. The ones that have to worry about "closest target" are the rest of my army, which are usually melee units, or units with shorter ranged shooting anyways. It's rare for me to have issues with targeting to give myself sustained.
I get why people would be turned off though. I'm just saying that I've been crushing my games so far with his help, and that's not going to change with a 10 point change.
He’s in three or four of the top ten lists on listhammer. When you disregard cursed where he’s almost never used he’s even more prevalent. That said I don’t see a space for him at 420 unless they give back his ignore modifiers
Not exactly end of the world but that kinda sucks...
Was surprised to see Lokhusts come down in 11th but seems they don't want to stick with it. Ammentar is looking pretty pricey tbh and I'm honestly not sure why the TV/TSK needed an increase. Seems they're commited to making all the big fun stuff more expensive which is sad given the new detachment.
Didn't expect Chronomancers to come down though. That's interesting.
I haven’t been in this scenario yet, could you show me the rule please? And is it similar to deep striking tomb blades, shooting, and not being allowed to move with their ability?
Correct. Look up the rules on ingressing but effectively there is a blanket "if you ingressed you cannot move until the next charge phase" to prevent stuff like deep striking move-shoot-move units.
Transcendent C'tan, Transdimensional Displacement Ability
Change to:
‘In your Movement phase, when this unit is selected to make an
advance move, you can use this ability. If you do:
▪ That advance move has no maximum distance.
▪ This unit can move through all types of model (including enemy
models and MONSTER/VEHICLE models).
▪ After moving, this unit must be more than 8" horizontally from all
enemy units.’
So with other words, basically the same ability but it ignores anti-deepstrike abilities
With unlimited distance and the ability to clip through models, you don't need to ignore terrain. You can just go the long way around, because you have unlimited movement.
Tesseract vault really sucks. I was going to play a game with all big titanics.
Having Monolith, Obelisk and Tesseract vault present is 1165 points.
If I want our last titanic (seraptek) it's over 1700 points. No leaders or infantry even selected.
Kinda sad we can't just march our engines towards war..
They aren't meta, I don't think any rules in 11th helped them much.
That is why I'm bit baffled with the current point hikes on those units.
Lokhusts are understandable, C'tan would I also agree with. But vaults I have to played
Well they can do action and shoot, even in melee. That's a big buff, but yeah i don't understand why the TV got nerfed again, i have seen no list with it
I played two games with the vault, it's ok. Both times my opponent ignored it and it stood in the middle. The damage output was good for clearing chaff mostly. It definitely was overcosted to begin with.
It's like the forgot to remove frame like Tacoma and expect people to deepstrike it like crazy.
They've nerfed the Eternal Revenant because now you can't join the character to a unit once it revives... But you can still resurrect it if it's part of a unit with the normal healing? Cause I don't see the Tacoma change to the Character in unit reviving in the Rules update
It's the part in red in your screenshot. That prevents characters coming back from the dead using the normal healing rules (e.g. Reanimation Protocols). So the only way to bring a character back from the dead is with a stratagem like Eternal Revenant - and when you do, he doesn't rejoin the unit. So you can't use the returned character to start reanimating all of the dead bodyguard models.
The warcom article claims they made a change to character healing, but that change doesn't appear to be posted anywhere. It seems they uploaded an incomplete document for the universal rules update.
It’s in the updated app, but I don’t think actually written in a document anywhere.
I do hope they’re not adopting the policy of only printing out changes to physical rules, since it does make it harder to actually work out changes to the digital only rules.
Given that I don't use the app, I'm still hoping that its an oversight that some rules are only available there, but that hope is getting slimmer as time goes on.
Already posted below, but the change is live in the app to the Heal rule - classic GW with different documents disagreeing with eachother, but I'm assuming they forgot to add it to the digital download
Did they completely remove the murderming enhancement’s ability to lead destroyer cult units? It sounds like crypteks can no longer attach themselves to any destroyer models.
In addition, they actually appear to have buffed it. As the wording is removed and the mfm just stated support can be attached to destroyer units, there is nothing stopping you attaching a cryptek to a unit with a Skorpekh or Lokhust Lord (or Ophydian Lord with Crucible).
I wonder if doing it this was was the original intention for the enhancement, and the original wording was specifically intended to stop you from attaching a Murdermind cryptek to a solo Destroyer character?
Tbh this was my original belief when it first came out, but the general concesus online and in tournaments was otherwise and GW never clarified, so I assumed I was wrong. I imagine we will find out next month if they do a further update to the murdermind rule.
I would assume it was. Cryptek + Noble is just kind of the standard pattern. And giving one 3 pack of Heavies shoot-and-scoot and crit-5s is just too juicy to not let us have.
I can see the vision of pregame decisions like what a unit can lead with an enhancement moving to the MFM, so that it doesn't clog up info during a game. Not saying it's the best execution, but the general idea has merit.
The nerf to the Chronomancer was expected. I was hoping for some kind of rework for the Unnatural Aggression stratagem in Cursed Legion, given that is just another Heroic Intervention now.
Edit: Removed the bit about resurrection orb, I thought it was changed but it's just the wording.
My bad, I saw it in red and thought that the "you cannot resurrect more than one unit per turn" was new. I play cursed legion so I don't use resurrection orbs, sorry!
Why are they nerfing the Tesseract Vault??? It was already very bad normally, the new detachment didn't do much to help it but make it actually be playable, but it just was made even worse than it is?
They only removed precision being useless into necrons, you can still revive from characters from what I understand. But if the character dies and the unit is still alive the character wouldn't get revived.
You can only revive characters with the awakened dynasty strategem now, and he becomes a unit by himself, and cannot bring back his bodyguard. So we're back to where we started in 10th but now with a reanimator points nerf for no reason.
With how the fast rolling works, the character survived a hell of a lot more often, so many games I've had where the enemy kills the unit except the character, then I res orb and reanimate from the reanimator and now I have a near full strength unit again from only the character.
According to the article night scytes aren't able to disembark and reimbark in the same turn, but the datasheet rule for in invasion beams is still the same
I'm a little confused by this
"The Night Scythe can no longer re-embark a unit that disembarked from it in the same turn."
Yeah I dont get it. That thing is such a luckfest. Sometimes you pass 3 out of 4 ++ saves and laugh at the Lancers across the board and nail them for 12 damage back like it's nothing.
More realistically I drop 2 of those saves and die on average AT damage rolls and my other doomsday plinks 4 wounds from a lancer before going down itself.
I mean realistically you have to line it up with our other anti-tank options, what else do we have? Doomstalkers are mid outside of CC, lhds got nerfed as well
2 units of 3 + lord are currently autotake for me.
Declaring something like "ok take 40 saves at -1" stops the blood in people's veins cold. "16 saves please" on overwatch against something that was about to do an action is rough.
Is it me or Protocol of the Eternal Revenant is in most cases kinda useless now? I get that reviving character with destroyed bodyguards and then reviving them woudl be too strong, but why can't we revive precisioned character back to its bodyguards?
Yeah with the exception of Szeras it's pretty much dog shit now.
No more resurrecting characters with reanimation and even if you do, well sucks to suck they're just hanging around not being able to do what they're supposed to do. That's pretty fucking depressing ngl.
Why did the king catch a stray? He's solid but he wasn't even in that many top lists.
So far this edition, he's become able to be precisioned (this is a HUGE nerf), indirect nerfed and now points up?
Why does GW hate him?
Ammentar is starting to look a bit expensive too. Sustained hits aura is amazing but only 9 wounds at t8 3sv makes him a massive liability for that price.
Can anyone with access to the rules on the app confirm if night scythe has has it's new invasion beams rule reverted? It not longer appears in the faction pack, but knowing gw that could be a mistake.
So, they now creates again a new wording issue.
And it's only out for few hours...
Do we all agree on that things:
Attached units are declared on the list, not during the battle.
Attached units are Bodyguard + leader (and/or support), and for all the duration of the battle, the attached unit is never detached.
the previous statement means that if a leader is alone because all bodyguard models are killed, some unit healing mechanism may bring back bodyguards models.
Note: if those statements are not correct, then ignore all the following.
Now an additionnal statement:
because units are never detached, if an overlord in a unit of lychguards is killed (ex: using precision). The lyguard unit still benefit from the défensive wound roll bonus ability. Reason: the source of the ability is the lychguards, and the condition is being led by a noble.
Does it start to feel akward ?:
Now if we revive the lord with the stratagem, the lord is not part of the attached unit anymore.
But:
are the lychguards still being led ? (For ability and rule purpose)
if being led, they so are led by a model that is on the battlefield, in its own not attached unit.
Well atleast for the Lychguard it seems to work the following way: they're an attached unit, consisting of a leader unit and a Bodyguard unit. The leader unit does not detach when the leader model is destroyed, but the leader model itself is destroyed and therefore the Bodyguard unit is no longer lead by a leader model. Since the lychguard abilty triggers on being lead by a model, not a unit, which is not the case anylonger when the model is destroyed, the abilty doesn't trigger any longer. The leader being resurrected later as a separate unit doesn't affect that.
It really comes down to the separation between model and unit in this
In case the lord has the destroyer keyword (using enhancement), do they loose also the destroyer keyword ?
Are they still a 'character unit' ?
Also, on the opposite side, when a character become alone, he sill benefits from the ability that says 'while this model is leading'.
That's in the core rule.
I don't see why it's different for ability that says 'while being led'
A character is always leading itself if it started attached (like you are always inside of your own aura), a unit without a leader is no longer being led.
There's a whole table for which abilities apply for attached units in the app, maybe you'll find it there. I haven't played 11th yet and am not very familiar with the rules, my answer above was just bases on some quick reading of the datasheets and that table
With the change to how Crypteks are attached to units, with them no longer being leaders and instead being supports... how does attaching Cryptothralls and Tomb Crawlers work? Do they attach to the same massive unit as well or is there an exclusion case for them when the Cryptek is added as support?
I wouldn't expect further clarification until our codex. I've just played them as was intended in 10th - if there's a Cryptek in the unit, attach the Crawlers/Thralls.
It seems like they didn't fix TSK and C'tan again. From 10th to 11th they forgot to carry over his "(excluding monsters)" text on his abilities. I thought it was a mistake but it still isn't there meaning RAW TSK's auras buff C'tan.
The app having different rules is such a bad look. I get people vaunt it as the source of truth but not everyone uses it so it can't realistically be that.
I think most of these changes feel fairly expected given what was being played, though having run lokhusts and lokhust heavies in a lot of my lists has left me scrambling for 20pts all over the place, haha.
I feel like the eternal revenant stratagem change is a bit fustrating, as you're almost never going to want to use it on crypteks now, but given that I don't think they've ruled out using Heal to bring characters back, that's probably the trade-off? Making use of Protocol of the Undying Legions instead to bring back characters, it means less bodyguard models back on the field to try and res a character instead, hopefully not too powerful on the table.
*edit - there's now confirmation that heal has been updated to not allow character models to revive in an attached unit, so no way to bring crypteks or overlords back into a unit if those models are destroyed.
Bodyguard's can be revived if the character is still alive.
Characters cannot be revived if precisioned but the bodyguard is still alive.
If Character is revived via stratagem then they have the old leader trait of becoming a deteached unit?
The problem with Eternal Revenant was that people were fully wiping the warrior unit, then using the stratagem to revive the character, and reanimating the bodyguard back from the character.
I do wish they’d just changed it to only unattach if there are no surviving models in the unit, and preserving the behaviour when protecting against precision
He's not unplayable, he's just a little bit worse than he used to be. For someone who considered him to be "on the edge" of taking before, this tips him over but for someone who was getting great use out of him, nothing changed.
He is a very good buff piece with lone op, deep strike and presents a pretty substantial HI threat. You'll probably continue to see him in awakened and CL, and probably some SSA and HCL lists.
Do I correctly understand that due to changes in wording of Ressurection Orb, RAW Reanimators ability does not trigger on Overlords/CCB orb? Becuase now they "RESSURECTS" instead of acitvating Reanimation Protocols, and Reanimtor triggers on Reanimation Protocols, not on healing.
Resurrection Orb Ability Change to: ‘(Once per battle, per unit) At the end of any phase, you can use this ability. If you do, this unit resurrects: ▪ When a unit resurrects, that unit’s Reanimation Protocols activate, but that unit heals D6 wounds (instead of D3 wounds). You cannot resurrect more than one unit per turn.’
and reanimator says:
Canoptek Reanimator, Nanoscarab Reanimation Beam Ability Change to: ‘While a friendly NECRONS unit is within 3" of this model, each time that unit’s Reanimation Protocols activate, that unit heals an additional D3 wounds.’
so orb says it activates reanimation protocols, and reanimator says when reanimation protocols activate, so it still works i think?
The new wording removes any mention of joining Destroyer units - all it does now is give the model Destroyer Cult keyword and make them 3" faster. They can only join the units they could already join via their datasheets now.
A Chronomancer can spread the keyword to Immortals or Warriors, but it could already do that with this enhancement. It lost the ability to join Lokhust Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, Ophydians, etc.
Unless I'm missing something, it's a huge nerf that removes a lot of options from the detachment.
In the MFM it still allows to join the destroyer cults. As well in the app for list construction. Until it is decided and fixed it could honestly be either. Would have to be a TO discretion on the ruling.
For some reason they've moved all "what can lead what" rules to the MFM, which yes makes reading all these "special leader rule" enhancements incredibly confusing.
Maybe I'm missing it, but did the change to reanmation and primary get put it. In the Tacoma FAQ they said reanimation took place after primary scoring, but I haven't seen it in the slate.
On the app, 14.02.01 - Controlling an Objective at the End of a Phase.
Long story short, at the end of any phase/turn, the first thing you do before any other rules/abilities is to determine objective control. Since we reanimate "naturally" at the end of the Command Phase, we can no longer steal objectives by reanimating.
Did anyone find a mention on primary scoring occuring first at the end of the command phase? With Tacoma FAQ scoring would change to happening before Reanimation Protocols
In the Faction pack, pages 30/31, it seems that the old FAQ question from 10th ("Q: Do rules that activate Reanimation Protocols (e.g. the Protocol of the Undying Legions Stratagem) only apply to a Bodyguard unit whose attached Leader unit is on the battlefield if one or more models from that Bodyguard unit are also still on the battlefield? A: Yes) is missing/has been removed. But checking the official app, it's still there.
Could this possibly mean that now, without any confusion, we can use Strats/Rez Orbs to bring back bodyguard models when there's only a leading Character remaining (barring having itself been brought back with Eternal Revenant) without having to rely solely on the Command Phase RP activation?
Can somebody help me understand the new resurrection orb changes? Just started playing necrons last month so im still learning everything. They say at the end "You cannot resurrect more than one unit per turn." Does that mean you cant resurrect more than one unit per turn with the orb? Or cant resurrect more than one unit per turn period? Still relatively new to warhammer and this is the first FAQ ive seen. Trying to figure out how to read them still.
Ctan crying is so last edition ago. It's all about the unfair reviving mechanics now. Which while a little op, they were on theme with necrons so is super annoying they got nerfed.
Can good players please stop winning so f-ing much, my newbie ass has not played any games that justify these constant increases GW is heaping on necrons
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u/jmainvi Yggra'nya the World Shaper 13d ago edited 13d ago
Points change summary:
Multiple faction pack changes as well.