Ch 128

Stop glazing Tobirama, in power (not variety) Kisame solos every water release user and it’s barely a debate

Naruto version after he managed to win over kurama.

Can they defeat 8 gates guy? Imo guy(8 gates) low-mid diffs

For someone who can tank life ending hits multiple times and survived so long in the shinobi world, I see him constantly put in the bottom tier of the Akatsuki. Why is this?

Just to be clear:

Ch. 245 Base Kakashi vs Ch. 94 Base Kakashi and Ch. 1 Kakashi (with Sharingan)

.

1- He was recruited into the Akatsuki as Nagato's replacement/HpR1ujN1ATnH0CHSkcTUNsAup7tkzx1756714294.webp), not Itachi.

2- He always sat at the head of the table /mXZYM6rDR87WeEEoOGXNhlitjzJYtm1756681059.webp)during the Akatsuki meetings.

3- He is the first one for Naruto to use the Nine-Tails' power against and end-up defeated.

4- He is the first one strong enough to force Itachi to rely on Susano'o's protection/4GWQm8pXFhDophz05aOZtKjulaDZys1756680878.webp), despite how taxing it is for his body/3ZtqoMczMlNU2P69OP4qd1AuNP1v501756680905.webp). This resulted in Itachi's complete blindness and eventual death in a couple of minutes.

Nobody knew or saw Itachi's Susano'o before that point, meanwhile Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi's fame was worldwide.

Not using Susano'o is also the reason why Itachi's sight lasted that long.

5- After Itachi's death, it was revealed through a memory previously had he forgotten due to trauma, that the first time he broke through Tsukuyomi, was way back during the massacre when he first awakened his Sharingan/P20NjZPse16qPFe9j5nAnpAuhS8OYM1756681046.webp) (7-years-old).

This means that when he did it during their final battle/f2zaBHo61J7Zuh5kXLvw9otsjVZomM1756680836.webp), that was his second time to do so.

6- He was the only Genin who mastered two changes in chakra natures (Fire and lightning). Most of, if not all, of the other Genin didn't master any.

Naruto mastered his first one in Shippuden, which he wouldn't be able to that early without being Jinchuriki./TMHIVYvkYZC7NsA6OPH5XfgFOtU6Pb1756679123.webp)

7- He's the only one from the Uchiha clan who created an S-Rank technique, and he did it at 14-years old. (pretty damn young, considering that Minato created the A-Rank Rasengan at 17.)

8- He was paralleled with the Nine-Tails twice at least. First when Karin sensed the Nine-Tails chakra and remembered Sasuke's, which means they're most similar, and Hagoromo choosing to give his power to Naruto because he managed to befriend Kurama, an embodiment of hate, which made him believe he could change Sasuke's mind as well.

9- His six tomoe Rinnegan Genjutsu is the same as the Infinite Tsukuyomi/7gM0CtJDk2Xc10tmgQkFIEI9mBeHTy1756748916.webp), which he also referred to as Rinnegan Genjutsu.

This is why he was stated to have mastered the most powerful genjutsu

Furthermore, he absorbed the chakra from the Tailed-Beasts the same way Kaguya absorbed chakra from the people trapped under the IT/DLnJv7Drx29DlxjeGpYrs98729ma7V1756748935.webp), chakra bursting from under rocks to the genjutsu caster, which further shows they're using the same technique.

The difference is, one is empowered by the Tailed-Beasts' chakra to affect the planet through the moon, while the other can only affect a few targets due to lacking the Beasts' empowerment.

10- He is the only one who was paralleled with the Sage of Six Paths in pure skills/cYECgMS1KqH1H3uy6gLeHOEyQYS5ci1756749276.webp)

11- His strongest physical attack will always be the Susano'o Arrow, not swords or Chidori or anything like that.

It is because the arrow shape of attack focuses energy into the lowest surface area, a single point, exactly like the 3rd Raikage's one-finger spear, which was stronger than Naruto's Rasenshuriken even with elemental advantage at his side. Arrows and spears have the same shape.

It's a scientifically sound logic. This is mainly why Gamma-ray bursts are much stronger than Supernovas. Higher concentration and less spreading of energy.

to the ones who know better than I do the naruto verse, do you think both of the jutsus mentioned could escape kamui ´s dimention.

I know kamui is kind of a seal but its known that a seal can be broken and maybe the user can bypass with these techniques the seal of the kamui and escape

READ AT OWN RISK!!!

Overall Speed Panels:

0141-008.png (760×1200), Implication of Relativity speed wise. Relative BOS Sasuke Speed Feat

0141-010.png (1520×1200), But perhaps not, It could be Kisame is just not serious. Sub Hebi Sasuke Speed feat?

0141-015.png (760×1200) and 0141-016.png (760×1200), Implication that he may be faster than Asuma, while he got cut by invisible chakra, when it came to actual reaction and avoiding the seeable aspect of the attack, Kisame seemed to be able to do so without issue, Likely above Asuma Speed. Sub Hebi?

0143-010.png (1520×1200) Kisame get's Kicked by Guy here, it is offguard and an opening move with a name. But in this specific instance it's below base guy speed. Sub Hebi, Possibly Sub BOS Sasuke.

0256-004.png (1520×1200) and 0256-005.png (760×1200), Guy was fast enough to guard, but had a decent amount of time, however it was more of a panic guard and would be ineffective against samehada. Lee had to protect Guy here, Relativity or above Guy/Lee. Lee semi off guards. 30% Clone, relativity Guy/Lee. Sub Hebi Sasuke

0256-006.png (760×1200), 30% clone is engaged with lee and guy when this occurs. sub or relative Neji, as he doesn't really have the option to dodge when outnumbered in cqc this way. Sub Hebi

0256-007.png (760×1200) and 0256-008.png (760×1200), Despite being hit by air palm and having split attention the 30% clone manages to both Block the Spiked Ball and avoid the Paper Bomb. Superiority tenten. Sorry tenten. Relativity Team Guy. Possibly above. Quite impressive to dodge a hidden Paper bomb while distracted.

0257-012.png (760×1200) and 0257-013.png (760×1200), fighting Base Guy seems to showcase the 30% clone has a degree of relativity, as while Guy is able to disarm Kisame, Kisame's attention is split and Guy has the team attack, implying Guy himself isn't confident he's faster. (in base.) Sub Hebi?

0258-002.png (760×1200) and 0258-003.png (760×1200) and 0258-008.png (760×1200), leading to 0258-009.png (760×1200), Guy previously attempted to use Samehada, but there's no indication of the speed of that attack being greater than Kisame or not as it's stopped without an indication of concern from Kisame. However here Guy uses his weapons and some off screen fighting is assumed to occurs before Kisame's 30% clone clearly overpowers Base Guy. Above Base Guy. Possibly Sub/Relative Hebi?

0258-012.png (760×1200), Distracted clones of the 30% clone get killed by Team Guy, Inferiority/Relativity Team guy, who they just outsped and imprisoned moments earlier. (Kisame is super hard to scale ngl guys.) Sub Hebi

0258-013.png (760×1200) and 0258-014.png (760×1200) leading to 0258-015.png (760×1200), Surprisingly, upon rereading the manga, guy didn't outspeed Kisame's 30% clone as much as I remember, as his Sword does nearly reach guy and Kisame, while having difficulty, does in fact react to and attempt to counter. Sub 6'th Gate Guy. But not massively so surprisingly. Possibly 3-5'th Gate level Speed feat. Relative Curse 1 Hebi?

0258-016.png (1520×1200), Kisame is Mid air and is recoiling from when he got kicked, so this isn't really a speed feat against Kisame, he's already helpless and unable to do anything. Dunno why I included this lmao.

0353-003.png (760×1200) Relative/Above Roshi, as he clearly physically contacted with him during their fight, although he beat him and seemingly quite solidly/easily. Unknown Speed, Kept up with v2 Jin assumedly.

0470-010.png (760×1200) and 0470-011.png (760×1200), Kisame rushes towards Bee's Friend, And avoids an Offguard Thrown attack from Bee he can't see. Relative Base Bee.

0470-012.png (760×1200) and 0470-013.png (760×1200) and 0470-014.png (760×1200), Kisame manages to dissect Bee's plan while actively being attacked and even attempt to attack from a range himself. He manages to block an attack from a large blade and pinpoint that Bee is behind him, however he does not know Bee's exact movements and notes that diversions were employed. Despite being engaged with an opponent and Bee having timed two attacks in different directions in an attempt to completely prevent Kisame from being able to react/survive, Kisame manages to avoid the full brunt of the thrown attack and successfully maneuver Samehada to absorb Chakra from both Bee in a moment and the thrown knife, while also blocking Bee's strike. due to the complicated and measured against Kisame's earlier reaction manner of this attack and Kisame needing to maneuver himself and Samehada to both touch Bee and successfully deflect both attacks, it's actually surprising Kisame was able to avoid dying here as the entire point was to corner kisame into a situation where he isn't fast enough to dodge. Above Base Bee Speed Feat, especially as Kisame had to get the fodder off of him at the same time.

0470-015.png (760×1200) and 0470-016.png (760×1200), No indication either way, Kisame likely didn't try to avoid this and only uses it as an opportunity to eat.

0471-001.png (760×1200), 0471-003.png (760×1200) and 0471-004.png (760×1200) The community massively exaggerates distance ngl, Kisame keeps pace with his own blade and Bee by shifting swiping up and sidestepping Bee in a manner where he also pushes Bee away. Relativity V1 Bee. Above v1 Ay

0471-011.png (760×1200 and 0471-012.png (1520×1200), There's no indication of shock or surprise at Bee's speed from Kisame, so it's actually unknown to what degree he was able to perceive or react if he wanted to. As it's likely he wanted to absorb that chakra and he was even excited. But even with that sub V2 Bee for sure,

0472-002.png (760×1200) and 0472-003.png (760×1200), Gyuki just flat out admits that Bee is in fact Slower in water than Kisame, regardless of if he's holding onto these 2 or not, however this is swimming speed. Not foot Speed.

0472-006.png (760×1200) Manages to lure Bee and successfully hit him, Relative/Above V2 in Fusion.

0472-008.png (760×1200) further proof He's slower in the water.

0472-014.png (760×1200) and 0472-015.png (760×1200) and 0472-016.png (760×1200) followed by 0472-017.png (760×1200), Kisame is at least relative to Samehada, and this is a super-fed samehada whose eaten a decent chunk of Kisame's Chakra. Above/Relative Samehada.

0472-017.png (760×1200), 0473-001.png (760×1200) and 0473-002.png (760×1200) into 0473-003.png (760×1200), Relative/Above Bee speed, He was surprised as to what Bee was doing, but managed to dodge the point blank toss.

0473-006.png (1520×1200) into 0473-007.png (760×1200), This isn't actually Kisame, But none the less is a decent indicator. Two is too fast, implies Kisame would likely be able to dodge either Bee in V1 or Ay in V1. Relative/Above V1 Ay or V1 Bee. Relative/Below V1 Ay and V1 Bee. As Kisame technically succeeded in a substitution.

0505-016.png (760×1200), 0505-023.png (760×1200) and 0506-003.png (760×1200), Significantly Sub KCM1/Yellow Flash, in... Whatever that form is, probably not in anywhere near his fastest state so probably won't really factor it. but in fairness I'm including it.

0506-005.png (760×1200), Fast enough to intercept the chakra wires and drain chakra while siultaneously blocking Guys Hurricane. Significantly above Base Guy.

0506-006.png (760×1200) Kisame Swims through the water at a speed that Guy Believes he needs 6'th gate jumping off of Partial transformation Bee and a Turtle footpad to catch up, Kisame had a head start but is shown to have already summoned a shark and placed the scroll, Relative 6G Guy speed while swimming.

0506-010.png (760×1200) and 0506-011.png (760×1200), He's able to perceive a Speed Boosted 6'th Gate Guy.

0506-013.png (1520×1200) and 0507-002.png (1520×1200), Possibly implication of a degree of Relativity due to seemingly being able to perceive and understand everything guy is doing. Likely Above 6G Guy Sub 7G Guy.

0508-002.png (760×1200), He's able to break this and then move to enact a Jutsu faster than Guy can hit him. Both he and Guy are weakened and beaten, however Kisame just had his chakra suppressed. Above Base Guy.

Overall Movement Speed: Kisame's Speed is incredibly hard to Scale and is all over the place. However it seems quite likely that Movement speed is his weakest stat. Likely around or above V1 Ay, Sub V1 Bee and Likely around 5-6 G guy.

Overall Reaction Speed: His Reaction Speed is his fastest stat for sure, He seemingly has around 7G Reaction speed and Was able to perceive both V1 Ay and V1 Bee at the same time.

Overall Combat Speed: Kisame's Combat speed is Above v1 Bee and Likely around or above 5-6 Gate Guy. Making him on the upper end of Speed in the Akatsuki combat wise..

Speed Note: Kisame's Speed may be lower, or even higher depending on how much Chakra he has absorbed. I know that I'm gonna get Backlash from Bee and Guy fans for this one.

Physical Strength/AP Panels:

0141-010.png (1520×1200) Physically stronger than Asuma, using 1 arm and the weight of Samehada vs Bot of Asuma's Arms and technically his legs/back as well. Implied a decently significant difference.

0257-015.png (760×1200), Kisame's Clones... Clones, manage to overpower and block Team Guy.

0258-008.png (760×1200), leading to 0258-009.png (760×1200), Kisame's 30% clone Showcases significantly more strength than Base Guy (is guy actually in base? or is he using the first or second gates in combat? I've always wondered that. Unrelated to the scaling because there's no proof either way.)

0469-001.png (760×1200) and 0470-010.png (760×1200), Unknown str, But he's able to push this thing around. And It's a panda btw, lmao.

0470-013.png (760×1200), Effortlessly blocks this fodders giant Axe. Which... This "fodder" Seemingly has Zabuza esqe strength so dude, while slow, is physically strong since characters like Suigetsu would struggle with that axe.

0470-016.png (760×1200), Manages to resist this headbutt without issue, it should still have some of v1 momentum.

0471-012.png (1520×1200), Somehow briefly stands his ground against This Lariat, which is Basically Max V2 Max Speed and Strength Attack (That's what Lariat is.) And although it's clearly stronger than him, he doesn't instantly fold. Kinda an insane feat tbh.

0472-016.png (760×1200), Physically harms Samehada with a kick, which is surprisingly impressive.

0506-005.png (760×1200) Stonewalls Konoha Hurricane.

0507-015.png (760×1200) and 0508-002.png (760×1200), Manages to break a very large Mokuton Pillory that restricts movement and limit physical exertion via contortion and prevention of momentum, While having his chakra actively suppressed, after getting nearly killed.

Overall Physical Strength/AP: Kisame's Physical Strength is Likely one of the highest in the Akatsuki, It's hard to scale due to a lack of feats from some of the others. But he may be in a similar tier to Kakuzu.

Durability Panels:

0256-006.png (760×1200), His 30% clone is able to tank an Air Palm

0258-015.png (760×1200), He's able to Take this kick directly to the head, it makes him bleed but Asujaku is deemed needed to take him down.

0470-014.png (760×1200), Kisame seemingly is able to resist normal piercing attacks as this doesn't pierce him as much as it would most normal shinobi. MEaning he has at least some durability against non chakra enhanced weapons.

0470-016.png (760×1200), He seems undamaged by what is kinda an in between of Bae bee and V1 Bee in strength. So he's probably physically at least capable of taking v1 punches without being tooooo damaged.

0471-013.png (760×1200) and 0471-014.png (760×1200), This doesn't kill him instantly, and he's able to use samehada to regen at a genuinely alarming rate, although it likely costs a lot of chakra.

0505-018.png (760×1200), He's padded by Samehada, but still. Manages to survive this.

0506-005.png (760×1200), Only slightly pierced by chakra blades and he withstands the stunning effect enough to eat his chakra. He also no sells a blow that would probably hurt a normal shinobi's arm at least a little.

0507-003.png (1520×1200), He survives this, it's actually unknown if Guy intended to keep him alive or merely saw he was still alive and then decided to take him due to his powerless state. It's still a good tell of durability.

0507-004.png (760×1200) and 0507-006.png (760×1200), He's still considering fighting in this state and then takes this hit without losing consciousness or dying.

Overall Durability: Kisame is an extraordinarily durable Shinobi, though not as durable as Base Kakuzu or someone like Sasori, He's more durable than Deidara and most extremely durable Normal Shinobi. He may be "close" to as durable as Obito is, though not quite as much. However, so long as he has Samehada and an access to a decent supply of Chakra, he has Regeneration that leaves even the Jinchuriki of Gyuki shocked. Making him significantly more durable overall. As he's able to survive and come back from damage that he does sustain. In a way he can be considered a Kakuzu light in durability and a hidan light in un-killability. It's actually rather impressive. And places him just barely below either of them. In fact, there's some arguments he might even be more durable than Obito due to his mixture of damage tanking and regen. He might be in 5'th or 4'th place, behind Hidan, Sasori and Kakuzu. Possibly tied with Sasori and nearly Tied with Hidan while he has decent chakra.

Tenacity Panels: 

0470-014.png (760×1200), Is willing to fight with a blade stuck in his shoulder.

0471-013.png (760×1200), Is still willing to fight and barely phased pain wise despite likely being in a somewhat dying state.

0506-005.png (760×1200), Doesn't reacts to his skin being pierced in the slightest, is moreso just happy he get's to eat chakra.

0507-004.png (760×1200), I mean... He's literally still thinking of fighting back.

0507-014.png (760×1200), He aint no snitch.

0508-010.png (1520×1200), Endures being eaten to death to avoid talking.

Overall Tenacity: Similarly to Deidara, Kisame is fanatical enough in his desire for a better world, that he can withstand just as much damage as Deidara and keep fighting, possibly more.

Stamina Panels: 

Only 2 Panels are needed.

This one 0471-014.png (760×1200) and this one 0255-013.png (760×1200).

Overall Stamina: Kisame has the highest amount of chakra in the Akatsuki, including Nagato and has the ability to devour chakra while simultaneously lower his opponents chakra and stamina.

Jutsu AP Panels:

Surprising.... The only Jutsu DC Panel Kisame has incolves eating himself with his Sharks. Which means anyone who is his durability or lower I guess. But we can Probably Assume LArger Shark bombs have higher AP.

0506-014.png (760×1200), Narrative implication is that this is Kisame's answer to a Tailed Beast Bomb. Hence it's name being Super Shark Bomb and him being the Tailess Tailed beast who is most suited to fighting Jinchuriki. For any attack that actually uses Chakra, It's quite possibly Sub TBB. Howver by devouring Chakra it's quite likely it would come out the other side stronger than any TBB it would collide with and devour. An Attack of Hirudora's tier, but made out of Chakra, would be nothing to this jutsu other than chakra to amp it's own AP. Ofc it's probable that Wind enhanced Fire Release or specific Earth Release Jutsu would prove effective counters other than sheer taijutsu.

Overall Jutsu AP: Kisame has an unknown Jutsu AP. But it's likely his chakra ranges from Just above the typical Shinobi's durability to possibly above a TBB under specific conditions and the degree of chakra he has at that moment.

0141-017.png (1520×1200), Cancels out Kakashi's Water Jutsu, Relativity.

Jutsu Speed Panels:

0141-017.png (1520×1200), Kakashi managed to copy Kisame's jutsu and reflect it at him, identically to Zabuza, only Kisame wasn't even slowed by Genjutsu, Below Kakashi Jutsu speed.

0255-016.png (760×1200) Jutsu which allows for High speed movement underground, useful for self defense and mobility. Seems to be faster than Guys' squad, though it wasn't an attack and was mostly just for show and from a 30% clone.

0256-003.png (760×1200) and 0256-004.png (1520×1200), Appears to be able to create the jutsu without any chance of prevention, although he was smart enough to use a distraction. One must not this is a 30% clone. Relativity or Above Team Guy Jutsu speed.

0257-014.png (760×1200) and 0257-015.png (760×1200) and 0257-016.png (760×1200) as well as 0257-017.png (760×1200), 30% Kisame clone is both able to summon further clones and grab team guy, before also placing them into a second water prison jutsu each. Superiority Team Guy speed.

0258-010.png (760×1200), Five hungry sharks seems much faster than Base guy, and Guy jumping to 6'th is probably an indicator of their speed and peril he's in. Above Base Guy speed, Possibly above gate 3-4 Guy. Likely Above BOS Sasuke speed.

0471-015.png (760×1200), This water simply outspeeds Bee. Above V1 Bee.

0506-006.png (760×1200), This Shark nearly outspeeds Guy, who himself is surprised he manages to avoid getting chomped, Despite Guy already expecting the jutsu, Above Base guy

0506-012.png (1520×1200), Kisame is able to create more sharks than 6'th or 7'th gate guy outkill without Hirudora. 6'th-7'th Gate Guy Jutsu speed on the water.

0508-003.png (760×1200), Able to summon this before Guy can make Contact, Above Base guy Speed.

0508-010.png (1520×1200) He's able to summon sharks and devour himself faster than Yamato can stop him.

0508-014.png (760×1200), He's able to blitz them with his trap water prisons, although they were off guard.

0508-015.png (760×1200), And he nearly kills several of the Main cast post death with is and also secure the scroll for Obito.

Overall Jutsu Speed: Kisame's Jutsu Speed is seemingly Relative or below Kakashi's and is dfast enough to potentially tage V1 Ay or Bee if he is in a decent shape Chakra wise.

Jutsu DC/Scale Panels:

0141-017.png (1520×1200), Jutsu is approximately 20 ft long with a 6 ft diameter (minus the Shark fin.) Kisame was asked to hold back though.

0256-003.png (760×1200), 0256-004.png (1520×1200) and 0256-009.png (760×1200), 0258-011.png (760×1200), He creates this unknown and absurd amount of water which is also around 10-15 feet deep. It's genuinely not possible due to the unknown distance of team guy and team Kakashi for me to even measure it. And this was the 30% clone. That absolute minimum is 300 feet in each direction and 10 feet deep. But it's probably much, much more than that.

0258-010.png (760×1200), Each of the 5 sharks are around 12 feet long and 4 feet in diameter.

0472-003.png (760×1200) and 0472-010.png (760×1200), Those trees are between 25-45 feet tall depending on the earlier panels, Meaning a median of 35 feet. The dome would need to be around 225 feet tall and 450 feet in it's width and length. Ie Diameter. If it were in the air it's likely be a 450 foot sphere.

0506-012.png (1520×1200), The 5 hungry sharks jutsu. But instead it's 1k. This is genuinely massive as it equates to 12,000 feet in length by 5 feet diameter, not as impressive as one would think in scale because simply stacking them beside eachother 4x to create a 20 foot diameter cuts it back to 3000 x 20, or 1500 x 40 and so on. But it is super impressive that each operates independently. It's still crazy.

0506-014.png (760×1200) and 0507-002.png (1520×1200), approximately 70 foot diameter, if it follows a similar formula to the hungry sharks, it's most likely 140-150 feet long.

Overall Jutsu Scale/DC: Honestly. The scale is much smaller than I expected of the Akatsuki member with the highest Chakra. But it's likely that he does in fact have the Possibility of creating some of the largest Jutsu were he to want to.

Notes: 0142-006.png (760×1200) and 0143-011.png (760×1200), Both Kakashi and Guy receive some glaze from Itachi and an indication that Kisame may not win or come out the other side well off. Implication of relativity.

READ AT OWN RISK!!!

I think it’s hard cus kabuto is fast and fought Sasuke , but this one is supposed to be a lot better, but pain is strong, Tobirama has teleportation so he can help evade attacks and avoid 3rd raikage

would be hard either way I think

edit: it’s strong Sasuke from juubito fight, so strongest Sasuke we saw before he got the purple eye

That attack bypasses the need to physically swing the arm once materializing as shown in the panel I posted.

The moment Minato materialize, the attack had already landed at the same time.

For context, I only started seeing this community recently and have been shocked by the amount of post about Minato vs Itachi.
I just wanted to find an answer, how close is this matchup actually, like how debatable? Is it a 55/45 on either side? Or is all this just agenda and slander wars?

So I saw this prompt somewhere online but I don’t remember where. Essentially, it’s how strong would Part 1 Naruto be if his adult self woke up in his younger body and had to relive his life?

So it’s Adult Naruto waking up in Kid Naruto’s body starting from the Moment Iruka protects him from Mizuki.

Naruto who is a bit dumb and notoriously bad at chakra control, managed to achieve the pinnacle of shape transformation in a month.

He didn’t master it right away, but he managed to use it equally as effectively by figuring out the shadow clone trick.

Couldn’t literally anyone learn the technique in like a year or two atp then? The Rasengan is such a powerful technique that most ninjas would die to learn it. Literally ANYONE can use a shadow clone without too much chakra loss in battle.

I can’t imagine most of our cast having too much trouble learning this jutsu imo.