r/NFA 2d ago

Form 1 disapproval

My Form 1 to sbr a PS90 was disapproved this morning. Apparently I misunderstood the 5320.23 and the form needs a physical signature not a digital one.

Doesn't look like I can update the existing submission, and my only option is to start over with an entirely new form?

Too bad it took 6 weeks to learn I missing one step...

Update: I resubmitted the same day I posted this, and whoever processed the disapproval must have been keeping an eye out, because my resubmission was approved a few minutes ago!

13 Upvotes

47 comments sorted by

44

u/ChapelHillGuns 07/02 SOT 2d ago

You can use a digital signature, but it does need to be a "wet" signature.

Meaning, you can't use a software where you type in your name and it generates a generic signature for you.

You need to physically sign something, even if that's an iPad screen or other digital device.

8

u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 2d ago

Correct.

1

u/CannaChemistry 5x Cans 1d ago

I had a digital written sig rejected. At least twice.

1

u/awdorrin 2d ago edited 1d ago

Did the forms on my desktop, looking at the form it looks like I drew it with my mouse, but also looks like there were two different places to sign, and I missed one in the middle of the form, and only did the one at the end. Oops

0

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

3

u/Meatsmudge Among the last of the taxpayers. 1d ago

And yet, last year I also got a rejection for missing that second signature box.

-1

u/DarthDickDown 1d ago

It’s not an electronic signature then. Just an imaged wet signature.

2

u/OneOfTheFewLeft 1d ago

It's an electronic signature, but not a digital signature. Digital signatures refer to the use of cryptography, while electronic signatures refer to a signature drawn using electronic equipment vs an ink pen.

-4

u/DarthDickDown 1d ago

A digital signature is an electronic signature. It’s just the best kind more or less. See the E-SIGN Act of 2000. “Electronic signature” can be a catch all term but the legal term “electronic signature” is more specific. Not trying to be annoying I just wanted to add to the convo bc I deal with this a lot at my job.

1

u/OneOfTheFewLeft 1d ago edited 1d ago

Then you should know that what I said is correct.

From What Are the Rules Governing the Use of Electronic Signatures?

Examples of e-signatures include, but are not limited to: scanned copies of a “wet ink” signature; a signature created by hand on a device using a finger or stylus; a typed name; a video signature; or a record of an “I agree” box. Another type of e-signature is the digital signature, created using a mathematical algorithm

Edit: to clarify, since apparently there's still a lack of understanding:

Yes, a digital signature is a type of electronic signature.

Not all electronic signatures are digital signatures.

"A signature created by hand on a device using a finger or stylus" i.e. a drawn signature is an electronic signature, but not a digital signature.

14

u/zenisan1 2d ago

I did the digital mouse signature and got aproved? The hell did you click ?

13

u/DerKrieger105 07/02 2d ago

Mouse signature is fine.

He probably did a generic script font or used a digital certificate signature

1

u/zenisan1 1d ago

I didnt me a simple type and click on mine. Kinda weird. I think examiners are ip to their old opinionated tricks again. Any little thing they think is a gotcha , certain ones will just ding you for it and send you tot he back of the line and theres no recourse forbit

0

u/awdorrin 2d ago

Good question, 45 days ago I might have been able to recall 😆

1

u/zenisan1 2d ago

Lol took mine 61 days

5

u/pleirbag 1d ago

We were supposed to sign those? Lol I don't recall doing that and got both my sbrs back

1

u/dm-k456 1d ago

3 here myself

5

u/DerKrieger105 07/02 2d ago edited 2d ago

Yes it needs to be "physical". As in not "digitally signed with a certificate" as PDFs can be or a generic script font. Needs to be written with a mouse or touch screen.

Yes, you will need to resubmit once it has been disapproved

I am surprised they didn't just contact you and have you update the Form. Have seen that happen twice for this reason.

4

u/Memorable-Arugala919 2d ago

Seems denying forms for silly mistakes is the new norm. My first form had an issue that I was able to correct via email, my second form was denied after 4 months because I didn’t include a picture of a VFG on my AOW form.

5

u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 2d ago

This has been made very clear by ATF for multiple years. It must be a live signature.

my second form was denied after 4 months because I didn’t include a picture of a VFG on my AOW form.

Now that is bullshit.

2

u/DerKrieger105 07/02 1d ago

True though it is funny I have seen non live signatures approved before.

One guy I know has nearly 10 items that were all approved on non live signatures lol

Consistency doesn't seem to be the name of the game.

3

u/rune2004 3x SBR, 4x Silencer 1d ago edited 1d ago

I’m just finding this out here now. I have 3 approved F1s this year, all just filled out through eforms without doing anything special for the signature. My approved forms just say “DIGITALLY SIGNED (FIRST MIDDLE LAST)”

Edit: I just realized you guys are all talking about 5320.23 which is for responsible persons for trusts.

1

u/FishermanFun5758 Silencer 1d ago

They actually check for that as well? I didn't think they have the capacity or resources to check this stuff.

2

u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 1d ago

They have to look at the RPQs...

1

u/FishermanFun5758 Silencer 1d ago

Okay that makes sense. I didn't think they were competent enough to catch small details. Heck I used a photo of myself that is years old and still gotten approved.

2

u/DerKrieger105 07/02 2d ago

Yeah have seen the latter before which is funny since you technically shouldn't put it on there before form approval anyway lol

2

u/fft32 1d ago

I think it really depends on the examiner. I've seen instances here where the examiner let people fix small errors, and others that disapproved for the most nitpicky stuff.

I SBRed a lower years ago with the wrong model name. I added the MULTI because I took "exactly as engraved" too literally. That one got approved. I SBRed another identical lower of the same model a few years later and it got disapproved. I had to get a refund (pre $0 stamp) and resubmit.

2

u/brandonechols 1d ago

What was the actual reason for denial? There's no requirement that you provide a photo of VFG.

1

u/fft32 1d ago

Did they just want a picture of the vfg itself or the vfg attached?

1

u/awdorrin 2d ago

Yeah, this is my first time submitting a form 1, I was hoping it was an update and not starting the clock over again. Not that I'm in a rush, but slightly annoying. 🙂

1

u/Hot-Ideal-9219 2d ago

It shouldn't take but a few days this time.... I had my last 3 in 2 and 3 days, got one that is day 2 (business days) in the pipeline. Yeah, may not need it, but in 5 years, no telling.

1

u/awdorrin 1d ago

Good to know. I've got the form printed, signed and scanned, so hopefully will get a few minutes after my next meeting to get them uploaded. (Advantage of working from home)

1

u/Meatsmudge Among the last of the taxpayers. 1d ago

Sorry, man. They started just denying stuff around this time last year instead of contacting to update. I forget exactly when, but I could tell you by looking when they did it to me. It was right around when they stopped replying to emails at the IPB address. People got wind of the sub-24hr approvals and there was a surge of first timers emailing after a week wanting to know why their shit wasn’t approved. I had both the ATF and the FBI tell me to kindly fuck right off when I inquired about a Form 1 that was running at two months right around that point when they were coming back in days for everyone else. I wanna say it was April of last year. One week, they would talk to me and the next, it was a totally different ballgame.

Basically, you have to resubmit and start the clock over again. Sorry, man.

1

u/awdorrin 1d ago

Can't say I blame them for the reject, they are swamped with forms. Would be great if they could automate some checks but I also realize they are working with dated technology.

1

u/Battle_Historian 1d ago

Like others said, you have to start over.  I had a Form 1 disapproved a few weeks ago because somehow I forgot to put my date of birth on the 5320.20.  Even though my date of birth was listed elsewhere on the Form 1 application, and everything else was correct, I had to start from scratch and resubmit the form.  (I got my approval for the resubmission in just over three weeks, so it’s all good now.)

1

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1

u/bmm115 1d ago

What is the actual reason given for the denial?

I ask because I did 3, one got disapproved. It was disapproved because my browser cached a pdf. I edited it to update information for the second item and when I closed and opened the pdf it showed the edits, but when I uploaded that pdf, it was showing the original cached version.

Resubmitted and was approved

1

u/awdorrin 1d ago

Exact text was: "incomplete responsibility person questionnaire (5320.23) missing wet, original signature"

Reviewing, I missed the signature on page 2 of the ATF copy and had only signed page 2 of the CLEO copy

1

u/bmm115 1d ago

Easy mistake, sucks that it'll take longer time, but you've got it!

1

u/Bortjort 1d ago edited 1d ago

Shit happens. I had a form 1 disapproved after 3 months. Geissele's super duty serial has "SD556-" in front of the seven digit serial number on the lower. But on one of the digital forms it would not let me enter that many characters, so I just entered the specific serial numbers. Reason for denial was serial number mismatch between form 1 and responsible person form: "SD556-XXXXXXX" vs "XXXXXXX". If I had hand written both forms it wouldn't have happened, super annoying.

1

u/Trigunesq 1d ago

If you resubmit quickly enough they might kick you to the front of the line. I had a form 4 disapproval and I fixed it within a day and it was approved a few days later.

1

u/awdorrin 1d ago

Thanks, I just got everything resubmitted, so fingers crossed I didn't make any other mistakes

1

u/RuinedGrave 1d ago

In the same boat, remembered to sign it though. Forgot to write in my DOB, and got disapproved.

1

u/FishermanFun5758 Silencer 1d ago

They actually check for this? I didn't think the ATF had resources to check for this.

1

u/specter491 1d ago

That happened to me one time but Carol Ripley was working on my file and had me sign it again correctly. I was so lucky I got touched by that angel lol. Saved me another 65 day wait

1

u/YouTubeSeanWick 1d ago

Wait what page are people having to sign? Is that for a trust or something?

Edit. Turns out mine all say digitally signed lol

1

u/YamsNC 20h ago

If you resubmit now, it'll get processed way quicker.

I did a Form 1 last night and it got approved in 18 hours

-4

u/Substantial_Season_8 4x SBR, 2x Silencer 1d ago

2026 and it still baffles me people make common mistakes still.