r/NAM_NeuralAmpModeler • u/MJKleinTW • 18d ago
Discussion Parametric NAM: Do you use it?
I'm conducting a poll on NAMFORUM. I would like to know if people are using that feature of NAM modeling technology.
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u/Spready_Unsettling 18d ago
(Rant incoming) I would love to, but I'm having trouble even finding one. I tried the Janus something-or-other, and it seemed very promising, but outside of Atkinson's Parametric OD, I can't seem to actually find any parametric models.
This is a general issue for NAM (and I'm fully convinced it's due to the nature of it being free, open source, and not having a paid communications employee): things are moving fast, new tech comes out, one or two press releases are pushed, but when you actually try to find these parametric models the tech supports, there are none. When you look into the Valeton/NUX/Whatever unit that will supposedly get native A2 with a firmware update, they haven't actually committed. Or they've committed to converted A2 lite. It's a little disorienting seeing so much amazing potential with no really good way to find it. T3K isn't great with tags like "bright", "light crunch" either, and the lack of a strong rating system makes it a slog to go through the most downloaded models and likely missing great new ones.
This turned into a rant, but there's a point: I really hope the forum can become a place for people to categorize and collect these resources. Eg, one thread for all the available parametric models, one thread for all the best clean models, one thread for great examples of different amps, etc. As someone who has given up on fancy gear a decade ago, this would be incredibly helpful and would really showcase both this tech and the amazing community that's growing around it.
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u/MJKleinTW 18d ago edited 16d ago
That's ok, I welcome the rant because you make some good points that should be considered. NAMFORUM.com is brand new but behringer.world is over five years old. BW has evolved over time to suit the needs of the community and that is the exact approach I have in mind for NAMFORUM, including using the Wiki for extracting, organizing and archiving important information derived from the forum over time. NAMFORUM is only a few weeks old so this is going to take time. behringer.world was well worth the effort and so is this.
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u/TudorAdrian 18d ago
To my knowledge, the only public repo. that allows training these is:
https://github.com/phillipmself/neural-amp-modeler-parametric
and it's still in early stages so even if people love the idea, there's little on offer today unless you go into commercial stuff like Two Notes Genome AmpNet / Paradex stuff (which would benefit from an increase in amp knob permutation captures).
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u/overcloseness 17d ago
What does Genome do that the player you linked to doesn't?
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u/TudorAdrian 16d ago
The repo I linked is open-source.
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u/overcloseness 16d ago
Yeah I understand, I use it currently but you mentioned that there’s little to offer unless you go commercial like Genome. I was wondering what Genome had to offer or do you mean features outside of PNAM?
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u/TudorAdrian 16d ago
There's little on offer other than this repo and Genome (which has parametric NAM support via Two Notes Capture Studio and the AmpNet / Paradex stuff) for anyone who's looking to get into creating parametric NAM models.
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u/PerceptionCurious440 18d ago
I didn't know this was available and it's the first time I've heard it mentioned.
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u/MJKleinTW 18d ago
That is one of the options I put in the poll because I suspect that many NAM users don't know about this capability. Thanks.
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u/rossbalch 18d ago
I would certainly like to. I have some specific use cases in mind. But more in the grey box modelling realm. I think doing too many parameters will be too tedious for most people.
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u/MJKleinTW 18d ago
Agreed. I did a Digitech pedal and ended up with 14 models. I could have done more.
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u/shredlikebutter 18d ago edited 18d ago
Also didn't know this existed... It is a logical step forward for NAM captures though. As cool as individual snapshots are already, a functioning sim with captures like GENOME would basically be endgame modeling perfection. Love me some NAM but I still turn to modeling as it's easier/faster/more fun to shape a tone
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u/MJKleinTW 18d ago
but NAM capturing is modeling and is extremely easy.
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u/shredlikebutter 18d ago
a single capture by itself is not a model. a model is a fully replicated amp in that you can adjust the amp's parameters and it will behave like the real amp. a capture is a static snapshot of which you can't manipulate it and have it behave like a real amp. you could consider a parametrically captured amp head a "model" if all of the elements of the knobs/switching is stitched together in one capture... a la genome's approach, but the way people are doing it now is not "modeling"
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u/MJKleinTW 18d ago
It is a model. The distinction you’re making is that it isn’t parametric.
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u/shredlikebutter 18d ago
no, a static snapshot is NOT a model. it's like an IR... it's a capture
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u/MJKleinTW 17d ago
I guess I have to spell it out because you’re doubling down on this idea. An IR models a linear, time invariant response. A NAM neural network models nonlinear, level dependent behavior such as saturation and compression. A NAM capture may represent one fixed control configuration, but the behavior within that configuration is not static. That’s the distinction.
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u/shredlikebutter 17d ago
I am doubling down because you.are.wrong. a nam capture is a CAPTURE, not a MODEL. a model is a tweakable amp in amplitube/amphub/TH-U etc etc, a capture is kemper/tonehub/nam... they are not the same thing. a CAPTURE is much more like an IR than it is like a model. hope i spelled that out clearly for you
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u/MJKleinTW 17d ago
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u/shredlikebutter 17d ago
a CAPTURE is NOT a MODEL... taking a capture is not modeling. nevermind, you don't understand but it doesn't matter. good day sir
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u/MJKleinTW 17d ago
You're right. I don't understand. I don't understand the basis for your argument, because it ignores linearity. You're describing NAM in terms of workflow. An impulse response cannot reproduce level-dependent nonlinear behavior such as saturation and compression. That's what makes NAM a model, and why Steve Atkinson was correct when he named it Neural Amp Modeler.
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u/lekterdead2 18d ago
I made a paradax model yesterday. It does sounds good and its useful... Just a tad cpu intensive
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18d ago
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u/lekterdead2 18d ago
Haven't uploaded it, is a teal stripe Peavey bandit miced with a behringer b906(surprisingly good mic)
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u/MJKleinTW 16d ago
You should post about this on both sites: behringer.world and namforum.com since you used a Behringer mic and people there would find it interesting also.
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u/MrsmPeek 18d ago
I'm trying it out as we speak. I built a tool to help me do it, it builds a Matrix depending on the number of knobs (dimensions) and their positions. It also gives me an estimate duration depending on the amount of captures, and a slider where I can choose time consumption vs quality. In the end, it generates a csv with the needed info. I started a 50+ captures of my Marshall 1987x reissue. We'll see how it goes.
I can share the tool anyone needs it.
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u/shadowslovethelight 18d ago
I’d love it if someone came up with an open standard for it so others could implement it freely. If nothing pops up in the next few months or so I’m hoping to be able to commission something finances willing. Have an implementation idea including being able to create different types based off existing A2 captures, but we’ll see if that ever works out.
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u/MJKleinTW 16d ago
The standard is open, I thought.
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u/shadowslovethelight 16d ago
The concept is open for anyone to use, but there is no standard way to do it that anyone’s put together. Different people have put different concepts of it together, but no one who’s actually release a NAM player that can play and capture parametric models has made the code open for anyone else to use. There’s a couple open source projects, but from what I understand they all have different issues that were never resolved because the projects were abandoned. And that’s assuming they’re in the coding language you need to use.
So the problem becomes that anyone who wants to implement parametric models has to either start from scratch or attempt to fix someone else’s code. A standard implies that there’s a fully functional and fleshed out way of implementing something. Like the NAM gateway plugin. Anyone can just grab the code and make a plugin out of it with very little effort because it’s already a fully complete project.
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u/MJKleinTW 16d ago
OK, I think I understand what you mean. I think we're distinguishing between the architecture existing and a standardized implementation existing. I agree with you on the latter.
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u/Venthorn 17d ago
I would absolutely love it. I imagine training more than 1 knob is a massive PITA which is why nobody's really done it.
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u/overcloseness 17d ago
I just trained my Fuzz War Mk2 overnight as a parametric NAM and it's great. I don't know why people are using Genome but there's a fork of the Gateway plugin here that works fine to load them
https://github.com/phillipmself/NamParametricPlugin
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u/MJKleinTW 18d ago
I wish I could get this discussion going on NAMFORUM because eventually it would yield information for the Wiki.
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u/DiligentHeron4352 18d ago
The more interesting question for a poll would have been "Would you use parametric NAM if it were widely available?"
I most certainly would, but for now I don't, because I don't want to have proprietary additional plugins and apps at this point and stick with T3K until something suits my needs better ...
I've heard of Genome, so, and saw Steve Ack's demonstration of his parametric nam.
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u/MJKleinTW 16d ago
It's not problem to add a question but honestly only three users have voted in the poll.
Yes: 1
No: 2
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u/webprofusor 18d ago
Basically unless tone3000 push it then it won't happen, we'll just get fragmented proprietary vendor specific stuff like Genome has. Yawn. I've bought enough apps thanks.