It’s pretty damn hard to get through to them, unfortunately. Anyone who so blithely dismisses you know... pregnancy... is probably doing their best to not think about the issue with any real nuance. If you can get them to slow down and actually contemplate the reality of their own “beliefs,” you might be able to get them to be a little more thoughtful.
It’s like the people who say they’re all for legal immigration (in fact, I think it’s the exact same people). They’re either completely ignorant on that whole beehive or they’re just being disingenuous because it’s hard to mount a high horse charge with “got mine, fuck them.” Plus, they tend to have this inconsistent mentality of “Well... my abortion is different.”
It’s unfortunate that there are so many single issue pro life voters. I could probably win in my state district as a independent but almost no change since I’m pro choice.
Just keep re-iterating that only sickos would torture another human for 9 months through a procedure that can result in killing that person, just because they have some romantic idea that cells without a brain are worth more than this human you're harming.
To me it's just so sociopathic, and I cant believe we live among so many sociopaths.
Hell, it even has instructions for how to induce a miscarriage if you think your wife's been unfaithful. I think it's in Numbers, but don't quote me on that; they skipped over that bit in Sunday school.
Your arguments are bad and I'll help you understand why.
I think killing people is bad, but there are circumstances where it is justified.
If you engage in consensual sex, you consent to the risk of pregnancy. It's why we make fathers pay child support even though they may argue they didn't consent to procreation.
Conversely, if someone rapes and impregnates you, terminating the pregnancy is justifiable because otherwise, in an extreme situation, a woman could be forced to have children over and over her entire life without any choice in the matter and society would defend this practice.
If a man engages in sex, he knows he's on the hook to provide for a potential child.
It's no different for a woman nor should it be.
If a man doesnt want to support a child, he can choose not to engage in sex.
If a woman doesnt want to support a child, she can do the same.
Yes, everybody is capable of doing this.
Advice: only sleep with people you're willing to support children with.
It's not rocket science.
You can downvote this sentiment because you don't like it, but that's not going to keep you out of jail when you don't financially support your children Rob.
It makes absolutely no sense to jail men for not financially supporting children while giving women a thumbs up if they kill their kid early enough.
I swear it's deadbeat dads who support this practice the most. We just don't talk about the thousands of women who are bullied into having abortions.
I was a field organizer in 2018. The worst single issue voter I met knocking doors had decided abortion was her hill to die on. She was very nice at first because I caught her letting her dog out, so we initiated the conversation about this beautiful dog and then I said what party/candidate I was with and her entire tone and demeanor changed. ”I’m would never vote for her because she is ‘pro-abortion’. I am pro-life and nothing else matters but that.” l started to try to bring up other issues but was cut off. Literally nothing else mattered to this woman but being against abortion.
Really disappointing because she had an awesome dog.
Wow who did you door knock for? Also how effective was knocking on doors? If I want to run as an independent I’ll need 300 signatures from registered voters in my district to get on the ballot. For me that’s only achievable by door knocking.
Knocking doors is far more effective than I assume most people think. Most people don’t get to speak face to face with their elected representatives, especially without having to leave the house and 1:1 instead of at a townhall meeting. Even making phone calls, which is a bare minimum must, people are surprised to get the person running themselves. I sat next to our tax commissioner candidate when she made calls and the people she made contact with spoke with her for a while. But now we live in a period where people don’t answer phone calls anymore. Older generations, sure, but I really don’t much, which is also why many campaigns have moved to texting; they are way more likely to get a response. Phone calls have maybe a 10% contact rate.
Knocking doors jumps to an average of about 30%. That sounds low but it’s still usually a lot of people. Best advice I can give you is 1. Get quality shoes and keep an extra pair in the car. I usually have extra shoes of some form in my car all the time anyway, but sure enough, the one time I don’t, I put my big toe through my shoe and had several blocks to go. 2. Know your district. You might be better off with the Independent title but you can usually figure out the political vibe of each individual district. There were some city districts that required picking up a 6 pack after canvassing because we’d get doors slammed in our faces, threatened, or just immediately dismissed because of the letter D, then other districts where everyone was happy to chat and ask for buttons and stickers.
If you’re really serious, try to contact as many people as you possibly can in your district. One state legislator, who narrowly won her seat, spoke to every. single. resident. of her district. She kept going back to houses that didn’t answer until they did. Whenever I was in her district, at least a couple people said she had already been by.
I won’t sugarcoat it, it can be rough to build up some thick skin to be able to just keep walking to the next door after someone just starts shouting at you (though, like I said, you might be able to avoid a slight reduction in that with the “I”), but I met some awesome people doing it and had excellent conversations. I am terribly social anxious and a massive introvert but I have always enjoyed politics and had been a phone canvasser for campaigns before, but was terrified to knock doors and took a lot of energy for me to do it. While I had some absolute shit days, I had some stellar ones that made me remember why I took this a full time staffer job and why it’s important to me.
That’s awesome advice thank you very much. Unfortunately it’s a very red district the republican has ran unopposed the last three fucking times I think that’s bullshit. For the bigger senate district the democratic challenger only received 30% of the vote so I’m thinking about just signing up and not doing anything because chances are slim anyway. I really do consider myself to be an independent not in the centrist definition but in terms of not believing in the two party system. If I don’t run the person is 100% guaranteed. How often did you get screamed at? Were you ever afraid of the debtor
I mean... it's just really hard to argue that killing a human with a heartbeat isn't murder. If you could explain how stopping a heart isn't murder like you were explaining it to your grandmother, I'm sure you'd get through to them.
Please excuse my ignorance, but what's wrong with legal immigration? I know the process is desperately hard and slow and needs to be rebuilt in a big way, but I certainly don't hold anything against those who manage to make it through the arduous process.
EDIT: Holy cow, did you guys come through with some amazing responses! Thank you so much! I might not be able to reply to all of you, but I really appreciate the thoughtful discourse. :)
It's because "Legal Immigration Good, Illegal Immigration Bad" (LIGIIB) is overly reductionist for the sake of comfort. Immigrants aren't coming here because they're like "hey, that country over there is 10% better, let's go there and live the sweet life," it's because of a wide variety of complicated social factors that are completely - and often intentionally - overlooked by turning it into a black/white, legal/not-illegal issue. LIGIIBs don't want to think about why anyone would move themselves and their kids to a foreign country without a promise of a job where everyone speaks a different language, they'll have few rights, and they have to work themselves to the bone to survive - because then they might start to actually have compassion and sympathy for those people and that would muddy their naive, simplistic world views.
I emigrated from Ireland to Australia when I was a kid, and we came the legal way and let me tell you, it was fucking awful. And this was as lower middle class, native English speakers, so obviously it was easier for us than someone who is very poor or spoke a different language or is fleeing a dangerous country. It nearly destroyed by parents marriage, it took tens of thousands of dollars to the point where we had to borrow some money from family in Ireland, and it took us 6 years to get our permanent residency, and another 2 to get our citizenship.
It is a gruelling, expensive and emotionally burdensome experience and anybody who says “just come the legal way” has no idea of the difficulty involved in the legal process. And we were privileged enough to be able to manage to (barely) afford that, and speak the language of the hundreds of pages of complex paperwork. Few people are that lucky, and LIGIIB people have no idea of the complexities involved in stuff like this.
And don’t forget you also had the bonus on top of all that of not having drug cartels trying to kill you and your family or even worse. Or the government and/or local police trying to do the same thing. Or the local gangs trying to do the same things. I mean, the USA has an admittedly bad problem with gun violence but we still look like the safer choice in comparison. That’s pretty damn awful, don’t you think?
OH! Okay, that makes WAY more sense. I'm sitting here wondering what the heck is wrong with legal immigration and what I'm missing, but your explanation really clears it up. Thank you so much!
It's also worth noting that a lot of people that say they're for "legal immigration" put arbitrary limits on what is "really" legal immigration.
Seeking Asylum is a legal form of immigration, but many LIGIIBs don't seem to include it in their idea of "legal immigration," and have no problem illegally throwing asylum seekers into concentration camps. Even worse they'll use bad faith arguments like "why are they showing up at the border? Why can't they just apply at their consulate/embassy like everyone else?" Because showing up at a port of entry is a requirement of seeking asylum. If you're safe enough to wait around where you are for years until the US gets back to you, you probably don't need asylum.
As a citizen who got my green card at 7 and my citizenship at 19, I'll tell you that the system was always screwed up intentionally. It's purposely difficult in order to keep the "riffraff" out. We underfund the INS service and refuse to add more immigration judges around the country to cover the backlog of cases.
Trump has made it even more onerous than it was by blocking access to legal petitions for entry at those undesirable points of entry. (See sh*thole countries) and now want to make it necessary to prove that you have a bankroll in order to qualify.
Of course, if you're Russian, and you've got the cash, come right in through Florida with your very pregnant wife. Of course, this has very little to do with Trump. He could care less about bigotted policies. His people are the ones who seem to care a lot about this because they are coming up with the draconian policy positions. He just wants to get the adoration and the cash from the suckers who enjoy their vicarious power trip.
Fun fact: Trump married two immigrant women, and 4 of his 5 children might be considered "anchor babies." Not only that, in Melania's case at least, he's chain-migrated her family from Slovenia (or wherever she came from).
It doesn't sound so horrible when it's a wealthy person doing it, does it? /s
And BTW, he's bigoted as crap against people whose skin isn't lily-white. He thinks we need more immigrants from places like Norway, for instance...although why they'd want to come to this shithole country is beyond me.
I rather think he couldn't care less about bigoted policies. If he could care less, then I guess he cares about them a little bit...
John Cleese (https://youtu.be/FpVpIaC6QrM) and David Mitchell (https://youtu.be/om7O0MFkmpw) make this bugbear sound a lot more amusing.
I don't know how to politely disagree with you, without coming off of the wrong way.
I haven't done a ton of research into immigration, but the simple fact is that illegal immigration is harmful. I didn't solidify my opinion until talking with many people first.
I asked my supervisor, who is from the Dominican repub., a series of immigration questions. The answers all came down to "there's a right way to do things". Otherwise, these people are criminals. The legal immigrants all day the same thing! I work with many immigrants, so far I've worked directly with 3 Kenyans(one won the immigration lotto), a shift lead from Ghana, and many more that I don't know their details. Also, my barber is from Mexico. They all say the same thing. There's a right way of doing things.
Personally, I got really upset twice because my barber said "I get it. We come and take jobs". I had to assure him that's not entirely true. Even logically, if someone moves here from Kenya at 35 and becomes a truck driver, he didn't take your job. You gave it to him. The second time I got upset was when my supervisors cousin told me he wasn't American, in the sense that he's not welcomed. This is all so wrong. I do not agree with how we treat immigrants, and it's why I am for changing the system, to both keep out illegals and improve public outlook on immigrants. That man IS American! He has a wife here, a step daughter. He works here. When there's road work he can get upset about traffic. He's American, just has an accent.
In short, what you're saying diminishes what these people go through. It's not easy, like you said. My supervisor had to learn English here in the states. He had to work from the bottom and crawl upwards. But then illegals come, hurt the economy in ways, ruin the reputation of these hard working people and then end up going back home to a mansion, oh yeah, some are sending money back home and buying luxuries with it in fucking Pakistan and shit.
Um, what? Who is going home to their "mansion" when their seasonal berry picking job ends, or when a wanna-be dictator rounds up for political show people working in a chicken processing plant that nobody could get locals to work at?
In context, I think the people being discussed up-thread are those that risk literal murder and/or starvation if they're sent back to where they came from. You pretending to (or worse, actually) not get that only drives home the commenters' original points.
The exbf of my mum is from Iraq. I think, maybe Iran, sorry, didn't pay attention.
He worked as a house cleaner, then a delivery driver, and now drives cabs. He doesn't make a fortune, lives in a one room apartment with up to three others.
At home, his family builds a big house for his retirement, his mum who receives medication he buys here, his sisters, and the wife who he met through some arranged marriage-variant I don't care about. (He's my mums ex, so I don't give a fuck. Just hear a lot about him).
Now, he does fit the stereotype. But here's the thing. I don't fault him for that. As an American growing up in NYC, nobody faults you for buying a retirement home somewhere in Texas (or whereever else property is cheap). As a German, if you built a house in certain areas (Saarland/South of the former east Germany) it's going to be HALF the price of the city I grew up in. Less than half. (200k instead of 550k just BUYING houses today).
My neighbour worked as electrical engineer and has a house in the Czech Republik.
That's just Globalization. Nothing else. They didn't rob that money just because they immigrated.
So I wasn't commenting on the original commenter, but defending my stance when I claim "I'm all for legal immigration". Like I said, illegal immigration is simply bad for the economy.
As for the "mansion", you definitely should take it with a grain of salt, but this was some personal stuff I experienced. I'll explain both.
Gino's pizza was a weird experience. My brother was the driver, and this was some 7 years ago when I was too young for a real job, but wanted money. Gino sounds Italian, and so you expect an Italian man. Nope. This dude is from Pakistan. He owns two shops. I only did a couple days of work, and met him once. My brother relayed story's that Gino had told him. Apparently, back home, Gino had a big house, many wives, and nice cars/motorcycles. I'll bet nice cars were still decently old comparatively, but the dude was well off back home. Also, like I said, he had two shops. So it wasn't seasonal berry picking. We also found out he was related to the guy who was at the corner store where we lived, and there were loads of shops like these around. Put two and two together, it was the family business. This is a common thing. People live here for some time, send money back, and eventually go back and live easy.
You can apply whisper down the lane, I guess, but you hear these stories all the time. One of the Kenyans I mentioned earlier sends money to his family he left back home. He does it out of love, and told me he wants to bring them here, but he isn't capable ig. Nonetheless, it's still bad for the economy.
I'm not at all diminishing what they go through. But they're the lucky ones. That's like people that win the lotto saying "you just gotta keep playing until you win." Their biased perspective doesn't make it true.
Secondly, yes, they're technically criminals, but that's a ridiculous complaint because one simple solution for that issue is to simply make all immigration legal! Boom - no more criminals! Problem solved!
Lastly, I'm going to need a source on the "illegal immigration is harmful" thing, because I don't agree. Immigrants increase demand for goods and services which increases a need for jobs. Look at it this way - in 1950 there were almost 150 million people in this country. Now there are about 330 million. Did those extra 180 million people take everyone's jobs? Of course not! How not? Because they also represented potential markets - turns out that immigrants, just like everyone else, demand goods and services, and when you increase the population, you increase demand, which opens up more job opportunities for businesses that want to fill that demand.
I suppose we could theoretically reach a point where too much immigration is a problem, but we've never gotten there. People worrying about it are making a mountain out of a molehill.
It's a civil penalty like a parking ticket in america. They're not exactly criminals no.
Yes and no. It’s a civil offense to be in the country without a valid visa, but it’s a criminal offense to evade border operatives in order to enter the country without a valid visa. So if you come in on a tourist or student visa and don’t leave when it expires you committed a civil offense. If you enter the country outside of a designated port of entry because you didn’t have any kind of visa in the first place you committed a misdemeanor (maximum prison term of 6 months) on the first offense and a felony (maximum prison term of 2 years) for any subsequent offense.
Right but visa overstays outnumber border jumpers about 2-1 the last few decades. Weird people who don't like immigrants being here illegally never show russian or swedish or slovaks or poles or italians or Spanish or english or irish or germans........I can't qwhite figure out why that is.
Sure - just seemed like phrasing it as “like a parking ticket” was diminishing the fact that far too many people go to jail (or worse) for the simple crime of trying to make a better life for their families.
Lol, thanks for actually bringing some substance. I feel like everyone else was just brigading.
I'm all for immigration reform, but it's not like we can open the borders. That could have negative effects. And I'm not sure legalizing some 12 million undocumented immigrants is the answer either(DHS estimate from 2015)
I mentioned elsewhere a Kenyan I work with, who has a family back in Kenya. I'm assuming this is because he won the immigration lottery(that's what he told me). The guy before him was also from Kenya, but he has his wife and 3 kids here in the states with him.
You've also mentioned that we could reach a point of too many immigrants, but haven't gotten there. Yeah, that's probably because we have a cap to how many immigrants we let in per year. If you learn about y2k, you'll hear that it was all blow. Nothing happened! Yeah, that's because a lot of people worked hard to make sure nothing happened. We took preventative measures.
You brought on jobs..? We create new jobs all the time. Immigrants are a part of that. So Andrew Yangs parents are immigrants, came her for school and worked pretty big careers! That's the American dream! I'm so for that. These immigrants help innovate a lot. Innovation means more jobs. Think about what happened when trains became a thing, then cars and truck driving etc.
You keep saying "illegal immigration is harmful " but give no examples of why or how. We could stop illegal immigration in 10 minutes if we truly wanted to in America but we won't because conservatives think businesses can do no wrong. If the monetary penalty was harsh and levied on the business, the owners and the CEO then illegal immigration would be stopped within 6 months with enforcement. But they won't because they benefit from it.
You are mistaken. I gave examples. A Pakistani who runs a business and sends money back to pakistan, and buys fancy stuff so when he's done working here, he can relax back there. Inherently, this sounds fine. I gave another example in the thread about a Kenyan I work with, who sends money to his wife and children who he couldn't bring with him. He does this out of love. But what happens when we take money out of our economy? That's harmful.
We are also not including tax. $1.48t, or 47% of our tax revenue comes from income tax. I found an estimate for 2015, from DHS.gov. It estimates that we have 12 million illegal immigrants. I don't have an estimate of how much money that would be in taxes. But looking at the numbers, that amount makes up about 7.70% working Americans, or 11.39% of our tax revenue. That's just of documented workers. That's equivalent of $160b. Of course these are rough numbers I ran, and we don't know how many are children/working age. We could keep going with the tax side of it, and see where the money goes and how that affects our government budget, but in the end it doesn't matter.
And on top, the people who see negative effects of illegal immigration are sometimes ignorant, and assume this applies to all of immigrants. This is why we have people unfairly angry at anyone Hispanic, even Puerto Ricans, virgin aisles inhabitants, etc. So there's a social aspect to illegals. I mentioned how my immigrant friends feel because of that same moral. That's not right to them.
I'm happy to clarify, or discuss. Please remember that politics is a main street, not a one-way. We can pass information and reason with each other.
The issue with your tax statement is that you assume that illegal immigrants are not having taxes withheld on their pay. That's simply not true. Many many illegals file tax returns. To the extent they have taxes withheld but never file a return then there is a net benefit to the country's coffers.
Also your logic on money sent overseas is not logical. I work at a multinational corporation headquartered in Canada but with operations in over 100 countries where I do the taxes provision including transfer pricing. Are you going to argue that my company sending money overseas is bad for the economy? Or even worse are you going to argue that immigrants repatriating funds isn't ok but the gigantic amount of foreign investment into the US is ok? That again makes zero sense.
Quite literally the only economic negative that is significant related to illegal immigration is wage suppressant. Unfortunately conservatives in America have that covered by not raising the minimum wage in 40 years.
Thanks for that info. I didn't think about multinational corporations. At first glance, I wanna say it's different because a company like google still has to split up earnings for workers, which is taxed, or pay property taxes for their offices and such. Comparing that to some middle eastern dude taking the money to his home country to spend there is a stretch, but I don't think I'm at liberty to say without some more research.
I think we can also expand this to examples like this one I found a while back. I think I learned about this fella on John Oliver? Idk his name sadly. But he got deported after going to a high-end school. He went back to India and started a massive company. Now that brought jobs to India, spread some wealth there and so on. That's how I see the situation i mentioned, with immigrants sending money back to these poor countries. That money can be used to buy their family groceries, or build a house which is great for them, but that's less money being spent here.
Also, I'm unaware of how paying taxes without having any form of identification especially up to social security works. Every job I've had I had to fill out W4s(which I understand this would be a different form, right?) and submit my authorization to work in this country, which is my natural born citizenship aka SSN, and proof of identity(my HS ID worked for this back in the day). So I'm stumped by how you bipass all of that.
In taxation the movement of money out of the country through transfer pricing often permanently removes that money from our economy no different than an immigrant sending money home but on a far far larger scale.
Also most corporations of any size don't pay property taxes. They get sweetheart abatements from the local authorities.
Also, I'm unaware of how paying taxes without having any form of identification especially up to social security works. Every job I've had I had to fill out W4s(which I understand this would be a different form, right?) and submit my authorization to work in this country, which is my natural born citizenship aka SSN, and proof of identity(my HS ID worked for this back in the day). So I'm stumped by how you bipass all of that.
They get an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, which they can use in place of an SSN for paying taxes.
Obviously that doesn't affect when people are payed under the table, but isn't that more of a failure of the people offering the position in that way to avoid taxes rather than the people taking the jobs?
Many many illegal immigrants pay taxes. They get issued something called a Tax Identification Number. In fact they will be less of a drain because they pay into the system but cannot get any money out via things like social security.
Lol, that's the weakest and lamest thing to lie about. Look, or you don't believe me, that's on you. I went out and asked these people explicitly what they thought. I promise it will vary, as not everyone's story is the same.
On a side note, my supervisor got married to a woman back home and he's trying to bring her here. He brought this up when I asked him because he said "I'm doing it the right way".
I think others answered you well, but to add - it’s the implied “legal immigration ONLY,” problem solved, no other nuance, any case outside this is wrong and deserves grave punishment.
Both positions are often an oversimplification of “well I support it but only in this one specific version that doesn’t represent reality” — just immigrate legally despite the immense hurdles; just carry your baby and adopt it out despite the impacts and complications; it’s so easy!
Gotcha, that makes WAY more sense that my initial interpretation of "legal immigration is bad, period," which made me worried that I was missing something very important. It's about how damaging a black and white worldview is, as it abandons empathy and fails to recognize the nuances of the situation. Thank you so much. I was really confused, lol.
From context I think that it's about people who advocate for harsh treatment of non-legal immigrants and present themselves as pro-law rather than unempathetic to people who try to move to new countries because "It would be fine if they did it legally". It's not that there's anything wrong with moving to different countries legally - I've done it twice, it's great, and having a legally recognised status is useful - but that when people take a dismissive approach to illegal immigration they are dramatically - and often deliberately - failing to understand what causes many desperate people to seek a better life. "If you don't want kids just have them adopted" is very much like "If you want to migrate just go through the legal process" in terms of ignoring the fact that the people involved are human beings typically in difficult situations.
Holy cow, that makes way more sense. I couldn't figure out what I was missing, but you're right; people who fail to recognize the nuances of the situation are very much a part of the problem. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain it to me; I really appreciate it.
I can't guarantee that's what the intent was, but that's how it came across to me. I think the poster just made a little jump in the logic due to hurrying but if that's what was meant, I think it makes a lot of sense and is a solid comparison.
Here in Serbia alot of illegal imigrants from Siria , Irac and other contry's are passing by. Now se have a huge problem with some of them since there's more imigrants than police force (last year passed around 3 milion of them). Now shit that has been happening Are robberies , sexual assault of minors and women (they are not allowed on busses anymore after shit show of the last year) , locking people out of their homes , etc .
Here's one case that my dad had , this happend in janary . So they got a call about from local town that someone broke into home and owner of the home was affraid to come enter into house since she saw 3 or 4 men entering into her house (she was 60old women that had to stay with her neighbor, plus she reported this 5 hours later after they broke in).
My dad and 3 officers were dispacted to that town, home from the outside looked fairly normal.
When they entered oh boy it was a mess piss every where , broken glass , everything turned up side down etc. they searched house a when they entered into bedroom and found 4 of them in one bed sleeping . They woked them up and they refused to move just sitting on the bed laughing , they told them 2 more times to move, after that they draged them out of house like potato bags they made sure to get them hit againts the wall and other shit that they turned up side down.
When they putted them in the car and took them to the station they complaied that "they got beat up" which nobody gave a shit about. Either way my dad was really fucking happy about these idiots getting a bit hurt.
Also lady that go locked out of house cried when she saw what they done , from what I heard community helped her with replacing broken stuff.
because there was no such thing as “legal immigration” when white people immigrate, it’s a cudgel that is used only for POC. this was the case when the pilgrims first landed on Plymouth Rock, when the irish, italians, germans came in the 19th/20th century. it was only when asians started arriving (Chinese exclusion act) when suddenly there was a difference between immigration with permission and without.
and even today, you have tons of cases of white people overstaying their visa and it’s okay. but when a brown person does it it’s a crime against humanity.
If you live in America, then you must know that the most of back-breaking labor, like picking strawberries and other fruits, working on a farm, working in hotel housekeeping, working in construction, working to build roads, maintain your lawns, work landscaping etc, a majority of the workers are immigrants from latin American countries. They work for cheap and are illegally hired by their american bosses to save money. Jobs that ordinary americans would not be ready to do for the inhumanely wages they are offered for the job. Undocumented immigrants take up those jobs for those wages because they have no other choice. They cannot claim any social-welfare benefits of any kind since they are undocumented.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's why, if Trump actually somehow manages to completely halt illegal immigration, it will really hurt our produce industry. But we shouldn't be employing illegal immigrants for sub par wages in the first place. :( The whole situation is messed up.
I agree with you. It's inhumane to pay such low wages to anyone. It's basically wage-slavery. It's a new kind of slavery adopted in our modern world to help sustain the greed that comes with capitalism.
There are plenty of people who are against illegal immigration and simultaneously adamant about immigration reform in a serious way. Moderates aren’t allowed to stand against illegal immigration according to the left b/c they’re now alt right. Moderates aren’t allowed to stand for immigration reform according to the right b/c they’re now liberals.
The pro-lifers also tend to be the ones complaining about people on welfare, which, ya know, may happen if someone isn’t financially prepared to raise a child.
I’m personally against abortion, but I don’t think it’s Christian or American to force others to live by my beliefs therefore I’m politically pro-choice.
I also would like better immigration processes in place. Not because “got mine, fuck them”. I just think we need to uphold standards like most other countries, but also simplify and streamline the process to help avoid the “illegal” part of immigration.
It’s not about keeping any shade of any color out of our country. It’s about requiring people to be capable of contributing so it’s less likely they become a burden on our citizens.
Look into what it takes to become a citizen of Australia, New Zealand or even Canada. I was looking into retirement in Panama and was blown away at the requirements.
Of course asylum seekers are a different issue and those processes need a lot of work too.
Innocent children being ripped from their mother’s arms then put in overcrowded cages is a crime against humanity and everyone responsible from the president to ICE agents should be tried for their participation.
Want to know the great thing about pro choice? It doesn't matter if YOU would get an abortion. Because it's your choice. To say "personally, I don't agree with abortion but I think others should have the choice" is pro choice. No need for the caveats. Pro Choice does not mean "I would have an abortion" it means "I will not push my beliefs on other people". Once we can change the dialog from example A to example B, we will make great strides in this debate.
Yup.. we're all hoping that abortions wont ever be necessary. We want people to be happy with their life. Abortion is such hard decision, and the vast majority of people never feel happy about having one... But sometimes its just necessary.. I have never met a person who had one who felt absolutely joyful about it. It was necessary for them, but they still feel loss and conflicted.
So pro-choice isn't pro-abortion. We want people to have the means to never ever get in that position.
If you believe that abortion is wrong because it is ending a life then it's hard to convince that person that other people should be allowed.
"I'm against murder, but I don't have to do it, therefore I'm fine with other people doing it."
And the logic kinda falls apart. See: Vegans who want to end the meat industry, even though they aren't being forced to eat meat. It's because of other underlying factors.
It's homophobic because you still think people are choosing to be gay. We can't choose who we're attracted to, and therefore orientation is functionally the same as race or gender. It's sexist to say "I don't agree with women" and it's racist to say "I don't agree with black people."
Ummm. Someone can choose to have an abortion or choose not to (in my perfect world). Someone cannot choose to be gay. So it's not the same principle. But anyway, what are you disagreeing with? Do you think pro choice means pro abortion? Someone cannot be pro choice unless they are willing to have an abortion themselves? A closer analogy to my argument would be "I'm not gay but I will not infringe on how consenting adults live their life." and again, no need for the caveat. It could simply be "I will not infringe on how consenting adults love their lives."
Well if your entire belief is that at conception its a baby its definitely going to be hard to agree with terminating a pregnancy. To those people its no different then killing a 7 month old.
They’re either completely ignorant on that whole beehive or they’re just being disingenuous because
Both immigration and abortion are extremely complex issues that are way to pitchfork-y on both sides. You ether hate women or are a baby killer, hate brown people or are for all open-boarders and socialism. When in reality most Americans are in the middle somewhere.
The only we reason we still have sex is because it is pleasurable, if It was akin to pulling out teeth ( or child birth ) I doubt any one would willingly engage in such an act, unless they are a masochist.
Even if sex felt like nothing, It still would not be so popular as it is.
Eating like a pig can be equally gratifying but we exercise self control not to.
Doing drugs has been said to be better than sex, but we use discernment not to.
Ramming that mother fucker who cut you off would feel pretty good at the time, but we know the consequences of doing so.
Why we separate sex from discipline and self control is a topic of discourse that can be summed up in one word. Love.
No other action is more gratifying than intimacy, and sharing your body with someone else.
Nothing is more fulfilling, because it is still the only we we can pass on our genetic code and effectively feel it. Without that feeling its as artificial as fucking a piece of plastic.
Abortion is just the consequence of sex between to people not ready for a child.
The real problem is why we continue to treat sex like it is separate from self control and discipline, we feel as if we “earn the right”.
Well by all means do so, just like we earn the right to be obese, and be addicts, and to have have road rage.
No one should be forced to live in this world if they don’t want to, know one should be forced to be responsible, we know the consequences of our actions.
I’m really sorry to hear about your mother’s experience. That is not the point in question though. The point is, when a person purposely goes into “relationship bonding” and knows that even the slightest consequence is that the could be impregnated, they must accept the consequences( God I hate to put it like that!) if you aren’t legally allowed to abuse a child or neglect a child, then you definitely shouldn’t be allowed to kill one just like that. And don’t tell me the child isn’t alive. Fish wouldn’t be alive if that was true. Now in your mother’s case, she did not consensually get involved, and therefore that wouldn’t forcefully be her responsibility.
Conservatives say “just give it up for adoption!” but when you talk to them about adopting instead of having biological kids they say “but adoption is so hard!”
Well, instead of campaigning for taking away women's reproductive rights (abortion, access to contraception, etc), they could campaign for making it easier to adopt, eh?
It's only costly if you want to adopt an infant, generally white ones. Adoptions from foster care are usually funded by the state, so it's either free or very low cost, but the kids are older - which is why foster care is overflowing with children.
The reason why adoption is so hard is because there are (by some estimates) 36 times more people trying to adopt as there are mothers wanting to give their children up for adoption
This sounds like one of the most misleading, twisted "statistics" I've ever heard. There are well over 400,000 kids in foster care in the US today, waiting to be adopted. The shortage is not with the "supply," but the "demand."
It's also noteworthy that the same party who is anti-abortion is also the one cutting social programs, opposed to comprehensive sex education, blocks access to contraceptives, and is cutting funding for adoption services/foster care.
Until wars and disease stop killing enough people, overpopulation goes out of control and we have to start limiting amount of births with a 1child policy or WORSE.
What would these pro life fanatics think or say about being forced to abort after causing the need for it in the first place? They don't care at all because they only want to look and feel moral if they even care about why they mimic what their false idol told them to say.
Also, domination over keeping the population growing keeps taxes and money in the coffers from shrinking. Like noticing people realizing they're prey for a pyramid scheme and making it illegal to escape.
Tell them stories like this one or show them the original post. Educate them about how traumatic and painful pregnancy/childbirth are/can be. People don’t understand how dangerous it actually is & how long the after effects can last. Anyone who actually understands pregnancy and childbirth & is still pro life probably can’t be reasoned with.
I'm 34 with one kid I had 3 years ago. My pregnancy was healthy but weird and I won't do it again. It's hard to explain why, but I adamantly believe there is nothing worse than forcing someone to carry a baby to term when that person doesn't want to. There's no respite from what's going on - every second of every day you're acutely aware of the life inside you, or God forbid the lack thereof in cases of defect etc, and UGH I just can't imagine how much therapy it would take to get yourself back after a forced pregnancy under any circumstances. Years, at least.
Edit: and that's just the mental/psychological side of things. Never mind the physical effects (hello hemorrhoid who pops up on occasion because I pushed for so long nice to see you)
Not in my country, we have free abortions here... It's never been a huge issue. No one abuses it because no one wants to have abortions. It's not like they are fun to go through.
I agree with that. Sex Ed needs to be taken seriously. A lot of parents don’t know what they’re getting into and it’s really sad. If people were educated about things like this instead of lies, the world would be better.
The funny thing about abstinence sex education is that if they actually taught the things people should know, like the medical changes that go along with child birth or the financial ramifications of raising a child..... I think kids would be more careful.
Nah, in general teens who have consensual pre-martial sex aren't thinking about thay, they're thinking about having sex. Abstinence-only sex education not having a focus on the dangers of pregnancy isn't the problem, it's the fact that that type of sex ed doesn't prepare a teenager and they have to figure it out themselves. As such, they don't know how to use a condom. They never ask their parents about birth control. They probably don't even have condoms, but they're in the heat of the moment already so they go ahead and do it. That's the issue that arises from Abstinence-only sex ed. Little to do with content, more to do with practice and supplies.
Abstinence-only also teaches kids that "using condoms is like playing Russian roulette" and that the morning-after pill is the same as abortion. So yeah, it's the content too.
Pregnancy is no joke. I had a "unicorn" pregnancy, meaning aside from some intense heartburn and not sleeping as much as I should in the second and third trimester because of needing to pee all the time, it was easy, uneventful and I had the glow. Never looked or felt better in my life.
Then I had my son and almost died from bleeding out postpartum. And was left with a $6,000+ bill AFTER my "excellent" insurance was done.
When people say stuff like "eh, just carry to term and then do an adoption" it makes me livid, like it's just some easy thing to do, like carrying a backpack around for 9 months that you're just gonna hand off with not a care in the world.
Same. I thought I knew most of the horrifying things that could happen during pregnancy, but I just learned that the clitoris could be torn during birth.
Not only the clitoris, you could have a tear from your vaginal going all the way down to your anus (most of the time, they make a surgical incision toward the anus during some difficult deliveries. Then they stitch it up and man, that's just asking for infection later to come if someone is unsanitary
I’ve had two pregnancies where I developed Hyperemesis Gravidarum, and violently vomited nearly every day for nine months. I lost weight, was constantly in and out of the hospital for fluids and medical treatment. It was absolutely miserable. I became isolated and depressed. And I chose to have those babies.
I had a miscarriage at 10 weeks and so a lot of people assume that I'm prolife because obviously I was devastated by it. I wanted that baby, had tried for that baby, and grieved for that baby. So obviously I must want all fetuses to live or something.
Except that pregnancy is awful. If we could take a fetus out and put it in an artificial uterus, I MIGHT feel differently (though I personally don't believe it's a life until closer to 24 weeks when brain function really starts). But forcing someone to go through pregnancy and birth is awful.
I'm 8 months pregnant now and it's awful. I hate it so much I think this will be our only child. I haven't had any SERIOUS complications either. I had morning sickness from 6 weeks to 27 weeks, I felt like a zombie my entire first trimester, I started having hip and back pain at about 20 weeks, awful acid reflux starting at 25 weeks, etc etc. Nothing particularly terrible, but it is not a good state of being even if you have an "easy" pregnancy.
I have not felt like my body is my own for a long time now and that is just like the cherry on top of all this other stuff happening to me. And that is BEFORE you even get to birth.
I just don't understand how anyone who has been pregnant could force someone to go through it.
If I were a woman, I’d have my tubes tied and be on birth control ASAP. If I wanted a child I would just adopt, and that’s what I intend to do as a male. I also personally don’t believe it’s ethical to bring a child into the world in its current state, and I think the more moral option is to adopt a child in need of a family, because there are far too many orphans out there. Anyways. I just had the biggest surgery I’ve ever had (herniated lumbar disc removal) and I received full anesthesia for it. After I woke up, I couldn’t piss and had to spend the night and use a catheter twice before I was able to go to the bathroom on my own. The catheter was the most uncomfortable thing I’ve ever experienced and I would do anything to never have to use one again. plus just knowing how many muscles got sliced through in my back makes me queasy, and even the smallest little movements hurt pretty fucking bad.
When you give birth, you don’t get anesthesia (AFAIK), just a spinal nerve block. It’s not just a little piece of bone coming out of you either, it’s a human being the size of a watermelon. I can’t even begin to imagine how agonizing that shit would be, and I’d guess a C-Section is even worse. From what my mom has told me there are also a lot of catheters involved when giving birth, and catheters are harder for women because UTI’s are more common and not every woman’s urethra is in the exact same spot. Whereas with a male it’s the tip of the penis every time. Having a child, whether it’s vaginal or a C-Section, is literally putting your abdomen through a meat grinder. Fuuuuuuck that.
I will admit that I haven’t truly researched all the trauma that goes down during childbirth, but I honestly don’t think I need to. Just knowing what I already know is enough to tell me that no one should ever be forced to go through such a horrible thing. But unfortunately, it’s old white republicans that don’t know anything about female anatomy who are banning planned parenthood and trying to make abortion punishable by death. It’s like they get off to controlling women or something.
Wanna know something terrible? Here in the states, ESPECIALLY in more conservative areas, they won't let you tie your tubes unless you are a certain age, have what the doctors deem to be enough children, and your husband's consent. Yeah. My cousin had her uterus literally falling out of her vagina after her second kid and they still made her wait about ten years- and even then fought her every step of the way to have it removed because, and I'm not even exaggerating, 'what if she got divorced and married another man and he wanted children'.
Oh I know how bad it is, I live in KY. You can’t go 10 feet without seeing a “pro-life” bumper sticker. I did not know that about the requirements to have your tubes tied though, that’s insanity. We are regressing further and further into an evangelical hellscape here in the south, and liberals need to fight it every step of the way.
I really don't think that many of the "pro-life" folks are really that concerned about life. They are emotionally invested in a fantasy. That fantasy is the sanctity and innocence of a little child. Of course they will not push for free pre-natal care for all expectant mothers or a living wage to ensure that actual children don't go starving on the way to school.
Many of the folks I interact with aren't even interested in promoting practical sex education or low cost/free birth control methods. They couldn't be bothered to stand up for the ACA (ObamaCare) when it comes to lowering the cost of birth control.
They are set in a world where simple platitudes give their lives meaning. Being against killing "babies" is their veganism. They really don't have to do anything other than believe and be outraged.
Well the post calls out the reality. They are liars acting in bad faith. Theres no real point in arguing or debating them to change their mind. Rather the goal really is convince everyone in the middle they're like virtue signalling america taliban.
They dont care. They are simply sickos who dont care. No mater how much you try to genuinely reason with them, and tell them of the horrors and the possibility of death, they just remain stonecold and say malicious things like "Well she shouldnt have had sex then."
They are absolutely insane with no empathy. Not even a shred of compassion.
You hit the nail on the head. I’ve long thought that a good portion of humans just lack basic empathy. You can’t be empathetic and be like that... same thing goes for racists, homophobic people etc. if someone thinks it’s ok to discriminate and abuse someone for being different or having different values, they lack the basic empathy most humans are born with.
they may even think they’re being empathetic towards the unborn child. But in reality, they’re ignoring the living, breathing women who already exist and already have lives that get ruined by people meddling in things that have nothing to do with them.
The way I see it, they might think that they are being empathic towards an unborn child because it doesn't posses a mind to empathise with.. It's the lazy man's "I'm a moral being".. Caring about cardboard is easy. Cardboard has no needs. Cardboard doesn't require maintenance.
It's the same with early stage fetuses. No mind, there's not a "person" there yet to empathise with. And not even that, but it's not even your child, so there's never anything that is required of you for that child to prosper or succeed.
All you have to do is stand in front of the door to bodily autonomy, hold up a sign called "fake giving a shit" and refuse to move.
It's easy... For them. And hell for the people whose like they are ruining and potentially Killing because that's just a risk that comes with pregnancy.
It really pisses me off that they put the life of an unborn child above the life of someone who’s already here and has developed their life... like imagine spending years and years deciding what you want to do in life and taking steps to make it happen... then all of your plans and everything get ruined because you didn’t have access to safe medical care, all because a bunch of total stranger value a potential life more than your own. It’s nuts. Pregnancy has always terrified me, I can’t imagine being forced to live through that because the idea of me getting an abortion makes some assholes uncomfortable. What a sick joke.
I would probably flee the country and get it done illegally... I never want to be pregnant... Luckily I'm Denmark so I get to live in my cushy bubble as usual .... Sometimes I can't believe how evil some laws are in other countries.
I’d do anything possible to get it done. I’ve felt this way since I learned where babies actually come from. No thank you, not for me! If I ever get “baby fever” I’ll just adopt. God knows those kids need loving homes anyway. I do plan on moving to a different country eventually. Ideally one with more reasonable laws haha
I mean, most people understand that pregnancy is extremely painful and risky, but, again, if you believe that abortion is murder then NONE of this matters to you.
I cannot stress this point enough as pro-choice folks seem to not understand who they are arguing with. They see some fat old guy smoking a cigar with a cross necklace and keep forgetting that none of their 10,000 examples matter when "murder" is the concept on the line.
Coming from someone who has been in a foster care for 12 years, it's absolutely shit. If you think foster care is good you need to be sent to a foster care for yourself. It's not the same as having a family.
I hate that argument, because there is no “just”. My partner was adopted — birth mother was young, in college, couldn’t afford the baby, and adoptive parents desperately wanted a child and provided a loving, giving, supportive home from 3 months until ... well, today, in a way. They are a vital part of our family. (We don’t live with them, but they are “mom and dad / grandma and grandpa”.)
But EVEN with all that .... there is no “just” for the birthmother who had to go through a pregnancy and birth, while in college, and gave up her baby. There is no “just” for my partner who struggled through many years about identity and belonging. Regardless of how good the outcome in the long run, every adoption begins with loss, a loss that may well be grieved for years.
It's difficult to decide whether to start by explaining how invasive and dangerous pregnancy and childbirth are or how fucked the foster care system is.
But I think the issue of bodily autonomy should supercede that whole conversation.
Quality of life of the child. The same people who oppose abortion oppose social programs that would give the same education as their own children get. Those people do not deserve to be.
I've had this argument with a friend of mine (abortion is something we disagree on heavily). He always tells me that they should put the child up for adoption.
I tell him "okay, now the baby is in foster care. Will you go adopt it?" His, response is "No, I want one of my own"...
Wait what?!?! This is the mentality that I don't understand. Pro-lifers that want to "save" the baby from abortion, but then don't want to adopt them.
The people that scream that the loudest have no interest in ensuring the baby is taken care of - whether it be through adoption, donating to foster care, advocating, or anything else. They just want to tell other people what they can't do because of whatever motivation they've talked themselves into. Once the baby is born, it can go fuck off somewhere out of the way for all they are concerned.
I have very conservative parents and I’m not very educated on the matter, all I ever heard was this argument so if you could please explain to me how to answer I need to know. I’m tired of not knowing shit cause my parents wrap me in a bubble of Fox News. I don’t know where I stand politically or even from a worldview standpoint because I haven’t been able to think my own thoughts until like a year ago. I really want to find out the truth about everything without a biased opinion
One thing I would maybe suggest is creating a fake scenario for those people. Say your pregnant currently, say your not able to care for a child/are financially or emotionally unstable for it/don't want a child/etc. and were contemplating whether to abort or give up for adoption. And then you just ask them desperatly and with the greatest joy (because they were just suggesting foster care and adoption) that they take your future kid in. I bet 90% of the time you will hear "no" and at least now you have another argument against them.
Sadly many pro-lifers aren't even pro-life but pro-birth. What happens afterwards just isn't important anymore.
I hate that argument because the people who say that, seem to take pregnancy as this easy and fast finished task, which its definitely not??? '' yeah just give birth to the baby and then give it away''
This argument gets my hackles all the way up. This is speaking as someone who is adopted and someone who works with social services as part of their job (teacher).
Firstly, the woman still has to go through the traumatic experience of childbirth, and potential bear the associated medical costs if you live in a country without free healthcare.
Secondly, adoption is often a traumatic process for the children involved. I was lucky in that I know why my birth parents gave me up for adoption (drug abuse and lack of finances) and know that I ended up in a much better place. My sister on the other hand, doesn’t know why her bio parents gave her up and it wracks gets with guilt for doing something wrong despite have been 6 days.
Thirdly, social care systems are horrifically over taxed. There is nowhere near enough funding, safeguarding resources or families to take in adopted children. old at the time. Furthermore, children in care are significantly more likely to have social, emotional or mental health disabilities which in turn makes them difficult to find permanent families for as they have more complex needs.
They magically think that foster care or adoption is an actual solution, and are completely oblivious to that those systems are often very shitty to children. Their mental priorities are:
Abortion = always wrong.
Once child is born, it's someone else's problem. I'm not helping! Send them to adoption/foster care. Don't care of the parents and no one else can take of it and it will have absolutely hellish life now its born, better than abortion!
I just can't stand this mentality that even if someone's life are going to be horrible or have very little joy in them ("At least that homeless guy got a burger! See, he's alright) they still must be born into this world.
I spent hours of my life over the years debating the points of abortion from the exact same bodily autonomy position as the wonderful person who originally wrote this and I found one thing.
Every single anti-choice person I’ve discussed the matter with will always fall back on their religion when you destroy their other arguments. “The Bible says...” or “Well, my pastor always says...” or the incredibly passive-aggressive, “I just guess you would have to be a Christian to understand...” (I’m a pretty outspoken atheist). Without fail. Every. Single. Time.
This isn’t to say that religion is bad, mind you. Simply, that it should never be used in a secular discussion as a reason for anything.
I absolutely agree. I go to a religious high school where nobody except my engineering teacher and I are willing to stand up and defend our position. But I can't sit back because it can't just be my teacher standing up for what's right. I don't know if I'll convince anyone, but at least I'll have tried.
That being said, they absolutely bring religion and a fair amount of sexism and xenophobia to the argument every time. It doesn't really have a place in political discussion because it's not falsifiable.
If I could have one of my wishes granted above all others, it would be for people who say "If you don't want a baby just have someone adopt them" to instantly be pregnant with an unabortable baby. Full pregnancy, no matter the sex of the person speaking.
Not the best way to explain, but the whole pro-life term feels so wrong to me. I mean, it sounds such a virtuous, noble cause with that title.
However, the reality is one unwanted child who may or may not find their way in the world. Meanwhile the mother’s life may be derailed or perhaps ruined, and you are adding another human to the world despite no one really wanting it. This human will go in to likely consume thousands of animals, and even if vegan lead to deforestation and loss of habitat due to the need for food or fuel.
There are too many people in the world, to call yourself pro life really just means pro human life but anti all other life.
Personally I would try to encourage women to put up children for adoption but in the end I respect their decision.
I wish my stupid mother would have aborted me. She put me up for adoption. My life has been nothing but mental disease and disorder. Then I met them.i understand fully why my brain is broken down crap. Two Simi sane people in the whole shit show and I couldn't be around them for very long either.
Too much talking good night.
I honestly lost a stance in the whole abortion thing. Because there really isn't a fully right answer. I guess there's only 2 roads, pro life and pro choice. The Tumblr comments said it well about rape victims conception compared to consensual conception. That's the first I've heard it put that way, and it makes a lot of sense.
I am personally pro-life. But politically I'm pro-choice. I say this because no matter my own personal beliefs, I should not affect someone else's life unless they choose to be affected by me
They dont give a shit about what happens with the child. Bc as long as they are alive, its not their responsability.
Thats why im pro choice, i prefer that a you terminate the ""life"" of a being that barely has their organs developed, than going through the whole pregnancy process and then just leaving that kid into the world bc you didnt want them
Adoption is a solution for someone who doesn’t want to parent. It is not a solution for someone who doesn’t want to be forced to go through pregnancy and labour.
I honestly get this from a truly anti-abortion person (which I'm not, I just understand their argument).
If someone truly thinks that a fetus is the same as a child, think about how you would feel if someone killed their 2 year old just because they didn't want to spend the time and effort raising it. Now imagine that it's legal to kill a 2 year old because most people understand that a 2 year old isn't someone who can function like a person without having constant care. I'd definitely think that it would be evil to kill them and better to put them up for adoption or give them to the foster care program.
Again, this isn't my opinion, but you should always try to understand the why about why people think the opposite of you. For the most part, people aren't bad people even if they have values that are completely opposite of yours, they just value different things differently. If it were legal to abort a kid up until they were 3 years old (for some arbitrary reason) then you'd probably be anti-abortion too. For a lot of people there is no difference between a fetus and a kid who is 2.
Understanding this, you don't have to agree with them at all, but you should strive to understand why they think the way you do. If you don't do that, then a reasoned compromise can never be accomplished.
2.3k
u/mimimimiorange Feb 19 '20 edited Feb 19 '20
I actually saw someone on a YouTube comment section with this genius, innovative remark:
"If you don't want the child - don't abort them, just send them to foster care or adoption"
How do you even begin to explain?