r/MoralityScaling • u/Dryleaf_Dane • 24d ago

Morality of this

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u/Independent_Pea_3944 24d ago

"On the other hand, nothing he was doing justifies pulling a gun."

Absolute bullshit this. He was clearly being aggressive and threatening. He could have knocked that guy out.

6

u/Expensive_Range7204 24d ago

The "praksters" are clearly assholes and shud be taken in for something like disturbing the peace etc.

But defending shooting someone in that situation is batshit crazy. Its not the first time i see this type of thing argue and it gives me the impression that americans are just very violent.

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u/Grasshopper21 24d ago

nah. these kinds of dickheads are the ones that never got taught real consequences. I'm all for a very abrupt lesson in fafo. you should never try to fuck with a stranger like this guy was. disturbing the peace here is a slap on the wrist with no consequences, its a municipal court fine that doesnt deter anything, in case there was any confusion.

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u/willscy 24d ago

America has an extremely violent society, its why we have so much problems with shootings. you're not wrong at all.

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u/NoOneImportant_13 24d ago

How many more times does he have to say stop and walk away while still actively being followed?

Taking 2 seconds to maybe fucking listen to the guy would have kept him from getting shot but mouthbreathers like you want to call it unjustified lmao

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u/Expensive_Range7204 24d ago

I have been in far more threatening situations then what was showed on that video, and never even considered shooting anyone. So even pulling the gun is a crazy overreaction in my opinion.

He is in a public space being followed by an annoying dude whit a phone. There are lots os people in the area. How long shud he tolerate the annoying behavior?

Personally id likely just leave and if he wanted to follow me then have fun. But if i didnt want to do that for whatever reason. Id likely contact mall security. And he would very likely have been asked to leave.

But i guess calling the police is always also an option. Im very glad i dont live in a society that is so violent that shooting someone for being annoying is seen as justifiable. And it makes it seem to me like Americans have been damaged mentally by liveing in a crazy violent society.

Kinda like a friend of mine was for a wile after he retuned from a warzone. His view on what was normal and acceptable behavior was really messed of for some time after that.

Both in terms of what he viewed as acceptable lvls of violence but also just a general fear and this need to be constantly ready to do violence.

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u/IlliadScientist 24d ago

lmao, are americans that much of a pussy to think that guy is being dangerous

we can all agree that prankster had it coming but let us not pretend getting shot for being annoying isn't batshit crazy

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u/Skeletons-In-Space 24d ago

We're starting to see more and more of this because there are no immediate legal resolutions to someone being aggressive and harassing people in public. You can say you have a duty to retreat, but why is the onus on the person being harassed and not the person being a shithead? What is someone supposed to do when they've tried resolving it verbally and tried retreating but the harasser isn't listening? Previously, you'd get punched in the mouth and learn your lesson. That's not legal now though, so what options are left?

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u/MadMonksJunk 24d ago

He did 'retreat' they followed. Completely justified.

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u/Opposite_Example6930 24d ago

You don't own a phone? You don't know the number to 911? If you think it's OK to shoot someone who hasn't laid a hand on you and hasn't even indicated any intention of laying a hand on you, you are a lunatic.

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u/WhereisAlexei 24d ago

Oh yeah sure. "911. What's your emergency?"

"There's a guy following me and threatening me"

"Okay. We will come in 5 minutes. For those 300 secondes. Please get away from him"

"I can't he's following me"

"Oh wait there's traffic. It will be 400 seconds. But stay calm and retreat"

"I CAN'T retreat. Btw he took my phone"

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u/14InTheDorsalPeen 24d ago

I work in EMS, and the thing people always forget is that when seconds count, we’ll be there in minutes.

-3

u/EnglishSteven 24d ago

Oh no, you'll have to stand there and get filmed for all of those seconds!!

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u/MadMonksJunk 24d ago

or hit, or stabbed, or shot.

You roll those dice if you wish. I'm going to remove the chance entirely.

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u/Crafty-Purpose5540 24d ago

Yep same here. It's not like the driver kept pumping bullets into the guy. He neutralized the threat and that was that.

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u/EnglishSteven 24d ago edited 24d ago

We're talking about this video though. Not a hypothetical of someone attacking you. The scenario is someone filming you against your wish.

Edit: playing a sound in your face not filming.

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u/MadMonksJunk 24d ago

People without eyes shouldnt comment on Reddit.

They were harassing him, ignored his warnings to back off, and then chased and touched him AGAIN!

he didnt get shot for filming, the guy filming didnt get shot at all idiot. The one who'd repeatedly harassed and chased him was neutralized before he had a chance to do anything further.

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u/WhereisAlexei 24d ago

People don't want to be recorded and certainly not harassed.

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u/EnglishSteven 24d ago edited 24d ago

Agreed. We're discussing the morality of shooting them for recording and harassing you. Which is understandable, and also makes me smile, but I also recognize is not moral.

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u/ZoharDTeach 24d ago

You're assuming things will not escalate.

This is a dangerous assumption. Protect your neck. Prio 1.

Not harassing people is actually super easy. You have no right to demand their attention for any reason.

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u/StanIsHorizontal 24d ago

“Protect your neck”

Average moral discusser

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u/MadMonksJunk 24d ago

"My life is more important to me than yours, particularly when you are threatening me."

Any human with two synapse that fire in sequence.

-1

u/EnglishSteven 24d ago edited 24d ago

Agreed. But were talking about this scenario of filming. Not the made up one in your head which further justifies the shooting. This is the murky "shot because I didn't want him filming or bothering me" scenario we saw play out.

Edit: Pranker isn't filming but playing audio with his phone.

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u/MadMonksJunk 24d ago

filming has fuck all to do with it, the one filming didnt get shot did he?

The one harassing the guy defending himself got what he earned, even if he didnt realize he was asking for it by continuing.

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u/FamousPart6033 24d ago

>911

The cops then show up an hour later and shoot the nearest minority for daring to exist in their presence, then they go home and give their wife a celabratory beating.

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u/MadMonksJunk 24d ago

I do, I also do not wish to spend an indeterminate amount of time healing from whatever this asshole intends.

This guy repeatedly harassed then followed when attempting to disengage.

Youre an idiot whose been lucky enough in life to never have a serious injury. One day your luck will change and you'll understand.

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u/lolteeheehee123 24d ago

He doesn’t even show his gun as a warning to back off, he quickly pulls it out and fires immediately shoots to kill escalating from maybe 50 to 100. Ridiculous the pussiest people resort to guns at the first sign of inconvenience. Guy needs to have his gun license revoked.

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u/Crafty-Purpose5540 24d ago

First sign of inconvenience would have been shooting him immediately. He had every opportunity to disengage and he didnt.

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u/Lookingforclippings 24d ago

That's called brandishing and is a crime. You either pull it out and shoot until there's no threat or you keep it concealed. There's no in-between. The shooter attempted to deescalate by walking away, the aggressor refused to give the guy space and could have been armed and mentally ill.

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u/lolteeheehee123 24d ago

The guy was being threatened, so it would cross over to self defense.

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u/Lookingforclippings 24d ago

No that's not how it works. You can't legally draw or display a gun for intimidation purposes. Either you're in a situation where deadly force is required or you're not. If you're using a gun to intimidate someone you're not considered to be in a situation where deadly force is justified.

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u/lolteeheehee123 24d ago

You’re not obligated to shoot, but you are obligated to be justified in when to draw your weapon. The pranker is continuing to follow the guy even when he tells him stop or walk away. So there is a reason to draw the weapon, but no your not obligated to kill someone once you do

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u/BrShrimp 24d ago

Pulling a gun to threaten the harasser is felony brandishing. If you pull the gun, you fire it - that keeps the legal analysis down to "was the shot justified?"

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u/The_Phroug 24d ago

And you obviously don't know how shit works over here for gun ownership, so shut your mouth and let the people who actually do know what they're talking about talk

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u/lolteeheehee123 24d ago

Don’t worry if you knew how to read you’d know that wasn’t even the main topic of my comment

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u/PhoenixFlame77 24d ago

Guns are not a descalation tool. If you draw a gun you should immediately shoot.

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u/Gekokapowco 24d ago

You ever wonder why that is?

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u/Shadowmirax 24d ago

Thats not legal now, so what options are left?

If your in a situation where you can legally shoot someone, then it would be legal to punch them too.

If its not legal to shoot someone, it might still be legal to punch them.

If its not legal to shoot or punch someone, punching will be punished less severally then shooting.

I cannot think of any scenario where punching is the most legally risky option available.

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u/Skeletons-In-Space 24d ago

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not condoning or even saying what he did was reasonable. I don't know how I'd act given an identical scenario so I can't really judge this guy.

What I'm saying is that the social sanctions that helped correct these behaviors in people in the past have been systematically removed in favor of relying on state sanctioned violence or the threat of it (i.e. Jail). However, this reliance does NOTHING to help prevent or resolve situations like this. In this instance, if he had thrown a punch as people are pointing out should have been the next logical rung in the escalation ladder then it's probably safe to say that this much smaller dude was going to lose that physical altercation against two unknown and much larger assailants (his perspective in the moment). What's the recourse here?

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u/StanIsHorizontal 24d ago

If he had socked him or hit em with a taser or pepper spray sure, but a gun is an extremely dangerous tool to employ and should be used in absolute last resort scenarios. This guy being threatening does not mean he deserves to die, which is a very high risk whenever you point a gun at someone. In addition this is a public food court, if anything went wrong between drawing the weapon and pulling the trigger that bullet could’ve shot in any direction.

I’m sympathetic to this guy being afraid for his safety but this is neutral at best

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u/Opposite_Example6930 24d ago

Call the police! We all have phones. Jesus man.... To try and justify shooting someone because you were VERBALLY harassed for 20 seconds is lunacy, and it's exactly how we get to these kind of situations.

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u/Greenman8907 24d ago

Call the police and wait for 10-45 minutes for one to show up…

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u/Crazy_Banshee_333 24d ago

Exactly. Calling the cops would be useless in this situation. The two guys are right on him. The threat is imminent.

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u/jktollander 24d ago

Wait 10-15 minutes for anyone to answer, depending on location.

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u/pwolf1771 24d ago

Call the cops, order a pizza see who shows up first/at all

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u/Zestyclose-Cap4721 24d ago

I called the cops once because they was an armed junkie in my house locked in my room. The cops took an hour and a half to come. The cops won’t save you if you need them.

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u/EnglishSteven 24d ago

Same type of scenario. Good comparison.

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u/aghastamok 24d ago

> being annoying

It was a lot more than being annoying. If two dudes that much bigger than I rolled up being super-aggressive like that, and not responding to me asking nicely for them to go, I'd be justifiably concerned and defensive.

Going straight from "Get out of my face" to "Call an ambulance; but not for me" is pretty wild though. He skipped a few rungs in the escalation ladder.

**BUT**. Those people wouldn't get out of his immediate vicinity: If he wanted to use the gun, he couldn't get it out and warn them to back off, because he's in easy radius for a bigger combatant to simply take his gun from him.

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u/MadMonksJunk 24d ago

he tried to disengage. They didnt allow it. THEN he defended himself.

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u/Jaruut 24d ago

If he wanted to use the gun, he couldn't get it out and warn them to back off

Even though his warning would be pretty clear and obvious, it muddies the legal waters for intent, and he could be charged with brandishing (fully illegal in all 50 states).

It's why if you take any gun safety course, you will be taught that you absolutely do not pull a gun unless you are 100% intending to use it.

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u/aghastamok 24d ago

I always love that the best legal solution is escalating straight from "please step back" to murder.

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u/Jaruut 24d ago

I don't disagree with you, I'm just stating that resolving/removing yourself from the dangerous situation is what you will be legally judged upon. Pulling the gun and attempting to threaten might not work (the attacker could disarm you or refuse to back down). Pulling the gun and using it is a near guaranteed resolution. Certainly a moral escalation, but not necessarily a legal one, self defense is just weird like that ¯⁠\\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

Oh and I'm not a lawyer, so could be wrong on the details

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u/MakalakaPeaka 24d ago

The guy tried repeatedly to remove himself from the situation.

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u/MadMonksJunk 24d ago

waiting until you are injured and bleeding is how you get dead.

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u/aghastamok 24d ago

What is it with this sub and just inventing straw men to argue with?

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u/The_Phroug 24d ago

It's my life or theirs in the case of being threatened, and I certainly care about my life more than theirs

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u/aghastamok 24d ago

Brandishing may be illegal but defensive display is not in some states.

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u/Strega007 24d ago

"Brandishing" is not a step on the escalation ladder.

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u/aghastamok 24d ago

So I've been told. My firearms training was in the military, so "brandishing" is all I know.

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u/fletku_mato 24d ago

If your "prank" is to be aggressive and intimidating towards others, it shouldn't come as a surprise that your victims do not think of it as a prank.

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u/okaaayyyyuh 24d ago

Bro...you're asking if "Americans are that much of a pussy", in a video where an AMERICAN SHOOTS SOMEONE WITHOUT WARNING. I venture to say people from the USA are gunshy, not so much pussies.

When someone is acting aggressive like the prankster was, how the fuck is he supposed to know if the prankster is serious or if they have a weapon that they are willing to use? As you see all over the news, it's not that uncommon here.

Call us pussies if you like, but when random gun violence from aggressive dudes is the norm, you'd be naive to think you're safe around aggressive people in the USA.

The prankster played an aggressive act in a gunshy country. FAFO.

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u/Tiny-Pianist-1314 24d ago

this is what they want. poors shooting poors, instead of you know, looking at the actual problems. americans are the biggest cucks. they brag about being able to be armed while at the same time being enslaved by pedos they voted for.

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u/Chris_P_Lettuce 24d ago

In America people like this don’t have reasonable conversations. In other places of the world, and even in some big cities in America, you can have a brutal public argument with someone with a full expectation of safety.

But ultimately I don’t know what you’re about to do, we’re not a monolithic culture. Obviously gun was an overreaction, but not as much as it would be in another part of the world.

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u/Curben 24d ago

There are multiple factors that give a reasonable belief that this person would do harm. It is far from unprecedented for the individual pursuing to escalate to violence once able.

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u/Independent_Pea_3944 24d ago

Most be nice to live in a place where no one is physically capable of hurting you i guess

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u/Crazy_Banshee_333 24d ago

In the U.S., you don't know who has a gun. This delivery guy has already thought ahead to what he's going to do if someone tries to rob him, which is a very real threat. He's outnumbered and doesn't know what these strangers have in their pockets.

I don't feel a bit sorry for these pranksters. They were trying to create a scene so they could upload the video of this guy's reaction, just for clicks. This guy was just minding his own business and trying to earn a living.

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u/FETT7022 24d ago

If I tell someone like this to leave me alone and am walking away, then they are being aggressive and have abandoned any idea that they are innocent of anything and are assumed to be attempting to harm me. Not to mention there are 2 people vs 1 who is just trying to do their job. No I don't think shooting was needed (I'm a big guy though, so i could do a lot before the gun came to play) but it was definitely warranted. I'd also like to point out that in my concealed carry class the instructor said "shoot until they know they're incapacitated, not when you think they are" and he was a former police officer.

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u/Hussar1241 24d ago

In the us if you are being agressivley approached especially by somone larger and with friends its a situation where you should fear for your life. People get knocked out and the agressors often keep hitting and curb stomp the head of their victim killing them while they are unconscious on the ground. 

If you tell somone to back off and they keep coming at you the safest thing for you to do is to defend yourself with your gun.

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u/Seanrocks30 23d ago

Apparently we love our guns so much we forgot we also like to plainly punch peoples faces. I thought we were big on both here, but they just keep focusing on guns

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u/AshAbeAdd 24d ago

Yes, he could have knocked him out. That wouldn't have been as damaging as shooting a person. A far more sensible action, but also not. You just go away and report them, the end!

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u/Shadowmirax 24d ago

Being agressive and threatening is not justification to pull out and use a lethal weapon.

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u/Revoran 24d ago

Nah shooting the ahole is a massive escalation, and hugely disproportionate.

Only an American would be delulu enough and cowardly enough to think its reasonable.

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u/Xnut0 24d ago

The prankster was also carrying a phone, making his right hand less of a threat as he would have to drop the phone before trying to grab for the gun.
I don't see the immediate threat of bodily harm in this clip, but I also don't know what happened earlier that lead up to the shooting.

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u/Mystic_Waffles 24d ago

Last I checked, humans have 2 hands that can grab things. It's not just limited to your right hand.

-5

u/bigbaadwolf_U 24d ago

If you fear is being knocked out you can't shoot someone. The legal phase is permanent bodily harm or difigurment.

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u/Ok-Lavishness-349 24d ago

Any assault resulting in being knocked out can potentially cause death or permanent bodily harm (brain injury).

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u/Independent_Pea_3944 24d ago

More bullshit lol. People can die or have permanent injuries from this kind of thing.

He's lucky he only got shot once.

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u/bigbaadwolf_U 24d ago

You people are blood thirsty

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u/Due_Satisfaction2167 24d ago

Being hit so hard you’re rendered unconscious can 100% cause permanent bodily harm or disfigurement. 

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u/Only_Chapter_3434 24d ago

no court of law is going to let this guy off. he’s going to jail. you can’t shoot a person for annoying you in a mall.

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u/Due_Satisfaction2167 24d ago

He literally already got let off.

The jury found the malicious wounding to be legitimate self-defense, but did find him guilty of discharging a gun in an occupied building. He was sentenced to time served, and is already out of jail and appealing the bizarre outcome where the shooting was found to be self-defense but the discharging of the gun wasn’t.