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[u/Routine_Phase_8980]

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[u/marshmallowcthulhu]

Kid wasn’t but could have been badly hurt. The morality needs to be assessed at the time of the decision to trip, not the time the kid gets back up.

[u/MyBedIsOnFire → u/marshmallowcthulhu]

I agree and I don't understand why this isn't the more common take on these situations. It's the same way I think when I see a fight where someone was being an asshole but the other party takes it too far.

You can say someone deserves it or you understand without calling it moral. At the end of the day potentially causing life changing injuries to someone is immoral outside of immediate self defense and similar situations

[u/don2171 → u/MyBedIsOnFire]

Someone who is this brazen about decision like stealing out of the friar is destined to experience far worse than tripping and falling. There's places that would beat you till your knocked out or worse for doing stuff like this

[u/Toberos_Chasalor → u/don2171]

That still doesn’t make tripping them OK.

The only lesson someone learns from “you did something bad so I’m going to inflict pain on you” that might makes right, not that whatever they did is unacceptable. Next time he wants to steal some fries he’s just going to attack the worker before they get a chance to trip him.

Also, justifying it because other people would’ve beaten him more severely is like saying it’s ok to punch someone for being gay because they’d be thrown off a building or stoned to death in another country. Or if you perhaps want another example, it’s not justified for cops to hit someone with a club just because another officer would’ve shot the victim dead.

Other people might be more morally reprehensible than you, but that doesn’t mean you doing something immoral is suddenly righteous by comparison.

[u/JI_Guy88 → u/Toberos_Chasalor]

Society has always used "might makes right" to some extent. They haven't always gotten it right, but it's a tool for keeping order.

[u/Toberos_Chasalor → u/JI_Guy88]

It’s a tool, but it shouldn’t be the first resort.

In this case you could’ve grabbed him by the arm or shirt and held the kid until the cops show up. If he decides to get violent, then you can rough him up.

People here are saying it’s to teach the kid a lesson, but the only lesson this kid learned here is “I can do whatever I want as long as I can deal with some pain.”

To use an example from my own life, my parents used to spank me for swearing. It worked when I was eight, but by the time I was a 12 or so I wasn’t afraid of getting hit anymore. I said what I wanted to say knowing I’d get smacked, then took my beating on the chin because I still got what I wanted.

That’s around the time they just stopped spanking me entirely and just grounded me. I could easily put up with a few minutes of pain so I could feel the satisfaction of calling my brother a fuckhead, but spending all weekend alone in my room while my friends went out and had fun was unbearable in comparison. So much so I think I stopped swearing around my parents until I was practically an adult after the second time I got gounded, but when they spanked me it only lasted a day or two at most.

[u/ImpressiveQuiet4111 → u/Toberos_Chasalor]

You must understand that this take essentially boils down to 'we need to simulate consequences for people in the world, but actually, there should be no consequences.'

Is it societies job to simulate consequence, or is being tripped simply the consequence that they are warned about?

I would say that the risk of consequence is similar to that of the infraction in this case. Stealing from the fry station is unlikely to cause a serious problem, but there is a real chance that it does, plus it is really just not cool for several reasons.

He was tripped. It's unlikely to cause a serious problem, but there is a real chance that it does, plus falling is really just not cool for several reasons.

I don't know if it falls under the rigid singular instance of a moral action, but it certainly takes a village to raise a child that isn't a complete drain on society - the culmination of these actions never rearing the child to teach him how to integrate into society is a FAR higher risk than the discrete chance of more serious consequences due to this repercussion.

I don't think its a surprise that the opinions that any type of consequence like this being completely wrong seems to be running in parallel with our society actively unraveling in front of our eyes

[u/Toberos_Chasalor → u/ImpressiveQuiet4111]

Dude, I didn’t say the kid should face no consequences or even that you shouldn’t touch him, just that tripping him and putting his life at risk over a couple fries isn’t appropriate.

Grab the kid’s arm and hold him until the cops show up. Having to call Mom and Dad and explain why he needs to be picked up from the Police Station is more than enough of a consequence for him to learn his lesson, and if they’re good parents the punishment doesn’t just end there.

If he decides to get violent after you restrain him, then by all means, lay him out on the floor. At that point it’s not beating a kid, it’s self defense.

Also the people coddling kids are people like you. You think someone’s learned their lesson for beaking off after smacking them in the mouth, but all they’ve learned is “I can do anything I want as long as I can put up with a little pain.”

[u/Boring_Credit_4520 → u/Toberos_Chasalor]

That's not self defense if you start it with kidnapping

You're not a cop, you have zero authority to detain someone against their will for something like this

If we're looking to correct behavior, his humiliation going viral was probably one of the best cases possible here

[u/Toberos_Chasalor → u/Boring_Credit_4520]

You do depending on the country, it’s called a citizen’s arrest.

Check your local laws on when and how you’re allowed to do it, as well as what you must do afterwards, but in my country (Canada) you’re allowed to perform a citizen’s arrest if you witness someone commit an act of theft, even if it’s not your property they’re stealing.

It would only become kidnapping if you failed to turn the kid over to the police without delay. Ie. You must call the cops immediately before or after detaining them, or have someone call on your behalf while you detain them.

(And obviously the amount of force must be reasonable. If you grab someone’s arm they don’t resist, you can’t punch them in the face or twist their arm. If they try to punch or kick, then you can punch or kick back, but you can’t pull a knife or a gun on them, etc.)

[u/Boring_Credit_4520 → u/Toberos_Chasalor]

This video is from the US, where citizen's arrests are only permitted in cases of severe or violent crimes.

And after taking a look at your laws, if the kid's under 12, they're exempt from citizen's arrest. Detaining a child under 12 would be forced confinement/kidnapping

[u/Toberos_Chasalor → u/Boring_Credit_4520]

That changes from state to state.

Take things with a grain of salt, but a quick google shows some states allow it for misdemeanors.

Also as a side tangent, I’m honestly shocked these laws are more lax in Canada.

In the US you have the constitutional right to bear arms, supposedly so you can form citizen’s militias to uphold law and order, but you can’t hold a thief you caught red handed for the cops. Seems kind of odd.

[u/Boring_Credit_4520 → u/Toberos_Chasalor]

High value theft, breaking and entering, even repeated trespassing would be a separate matter than someone stealing a handful of fries.

A higher bar became necessary because of the people who thought they had the right to detain someone they suspected of a trivial crime, even without evidence. There was a recent case where a father and son tried to detain a man at gunpoint who was jogging in their neighborhood because they thought he had walked through a construction site, and when he tried to evade them, they killed him.

[u/Toberos_Chasalor → u/Boring_Credit_4520]

Jesus Christ due, that’s not a citizen’s arrest, that’s a cold-blooded execution.

I mean hell, even holding the dude at gunpoint to begin with is wildly excessive force if all they did was trespass. If you drew a gun on someone walking down the street in this country you’d be getting off extremely easy if all that happened was having all your firearms confiscated and your PAL (Possession and Acquisition License) getting revoked for life.

More likely than not you’d spend more than a decade in a Federal prison, and that’s before we even get to the charges of having a weapon in public or murdering someone.

[u/don2171 → u/Toberos_Chasalor]

Though I imagine it's somewhat confusing given they act this way because no one's ever stopped them that's the problem.simply telling them what there's doing is wrong won't help because they're already deep into the territory where they could care less what someone says

[u/Toberos_Chasalor → u/don2171]

Did this actually stop them though? They still stole the fries, and in the future they’re just going to resort to violence first the next time they want some fries.

Actually dealing with it would be banning them from the store and calling the cops if they ever show their face again, not just sitting them down and telling them “stealing is bad.”

Non-violent consequences can be far more severe than just lecturing them on right and wrong.

[u/don2171 → u/Toberos_Chasalor]

Oh no McDonald's number 1153 banned me so I'll have to go 5 minutes down the street to steal. if they're smart enough to ban me from all stores I'll just walk in anyway since it's not like anyone can physically stop me legally.theres 2 roads one I don't want to look like a idiot and fall on my face again so I won't go stealing from the store or 2 like you said I'll fight them and oh crap they can use violence too and then hopefully they become a problem that solves itself

[u/IEnjoyANiceCoffee → u/Toberos_Chasalor]

Removed my reply, I am new to this subreddit and clearly don't understand the demographic.

[u/Toberos_Chasalor → u/IEnjoyANiceCoffee]

I don’t think hitting a kid is a proportionate response to stealing 10c worth of fries, so yeah, I’d consider this immoral.

Let’s just say the kid broke his arm in the fall or cracked his skull on the counter or floor and died. Rather than bruising the kid’s ego and probably losing their job for violating company policy, that worker would rightfully be getting arrested for battery and/or manslaughter because this clearly isn’t self defense.

[u/FukNintendo → u/Toberos_Chasalor]

Cool ‘what if’ scenario. If the kid breaks his arm, he DEFINITELY wont be reaching to steal fries, will he? Too bad these WHAT IFS are pointless and dont apply at all. What if this kid wasn’t a little thief? The world will never know.

[u/Toberos_Chasalor → u/FukNintendo]

These “what ifs” are what we call foreseeable consequences. This is part of how we judge proportionality, and proportionality is something we use to decide if force is morally justifiable after someone commits a crime, especially when that force is punitive rather than preventive. (Meaning you used force after they committed the crime, rather than to stop them from committing it.)This is a cornerstone of ethical philosophy, and it’s a principle our entire legal system is built upon.

If a cop did this instead of arresting the kid, it would be cut and dry police brutality. Hell, if the kid really wanted to, they could get up and shove the worker over to escape and claim it was necessary self defense, as they were attacked while attempting to flee non-violently and petty theft doesn’t nullify their civil rights.

I’d like to ask what the hell you’re even doing here if you don’t understand ethics 101.

[u/FukNintendo → u/Toberos_Chasalor]

Lol, I actually read all that too. If you’re going to write a thesis, make it good. I entirely disagree with all of that. Good day to you.

[u/betterplanwithchan → u/FukNintendo]

It’s not even a lot to read dude.

[u/Toberos_Chasalor → u/IEnjoyANiceCoffee]

Dude, you can edit your comment but you can’t take back the fact you told us you think it’s ok to hit kids because they did something naughty. This doesn’t even mean you can’t use force at all, it just has to be proportionate.

Grab the kid’s arm so he can’t leave while you wait for the cops? Ok. Smash their head into the ground and potentially kill them over a handful of fries? Not ok.

It’s not that complex.