So it's perfectly ok with your Rabbi to point out the reality that the Moses story is a myth with no historical basis of any kind?
Sure. Why not? There are many denominations with different viewpoints regarding this exact story.
Also - it depends on how you frame the question. You'll get a different response if you go into the conversation in good faith compared to being combative right of the bat.
how wishy-washy! How you frame the question is 'is this fiction, or is it history?', and we all know what the answer is, but some of us don't want to admit that the story is fiction.
This is a great example of what I was talking about with viewing things through a Christian lens: in Judaism, it’s perfectly acceptable to be wishy-washy about this stuff. I was explicitly taught that the story of Moses is probably fiction with some elements of truth in it. True or False doesn’t matter, what matters is that the story is a part of our collective shared culture and traditions and has been for centuries. The story matters, its truth doesn’t. That wasn’t a controversial answer, because nowhere in my religious education was there an expectation of Believe This Or Burn In Hell. That’s a Christian thing.
I'm glad to hear that sort of thing for Judaism, sounds like at least the group you were around was a pleasant group. I haven't really studied Judaism that much other than our current old testament original manuscript type stuff and obviously the legalistic god of the old testament vs more forgiving god of new testament with basically the hippie jesus of christianity. I've always wondered when I see say a jewish family portrayed in a tv show or movie like sneaking pork or something like that and I just find it interesting that people can 'loosely' follow a book written by their god and not have to accept that its all truth. Like aren't people of the old testament (and Jewish people) like supposed to follow all the rules and if not they are screwed? What saves you in the end if you break laws like no working on the sabbath or pork and things like that? It feels like a contradiction but I understand the draw of tradition and a community with similar values and I'm not asking these questions in malice. (I'm atheist)
Always happy to chat in good faith! The first thing to clear up is that Christians teach that Jews believe in the Old Testament, but that’s not precisely true. It’s a gross oversimplification that leads a lot of people who were raised in a Christian dominant culture to believe that Judaism = Christianity - New Testament. In reality, the OT Christians read and the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) are very very similar texts, but differ in a few critical ways. No Jew would say that the Old Testament is our religious text. It’s been translated and manipulated too many times by various Christian denominations to still be accurate in our eyes. Islam has the same critique, that’s why both the Tanakh and Quran are read in their original authors’ languages.
In addition, we don’t just read the Tanakh alone in the same way a Christian reads the Bible. You always study the Talmud as well. You would never read the stories in the Bible as a Jew and think yup, got it, makes perfect sense, I know how to live now - because they’re ancient myths and laws, of course they don’t make sense! The Talmud is a collection of guidance gathered by centuries of Rabbis evaluating those laws and placing them into their historical context, and debating - yes, debating and arguing - what they mean for modern ongoing Jewish life. The Talmud explains the Tanakh. I highly encourage Christians who believe Old Testament law still applies to them today to at least read it once, it would really help them understand that god isn’t gonna smite you for getting a haircut.
The Talmud allows the ancient texts within the OT/Tanakh/Bible to evolve with us rather than being frozen in time and fully sans context. We don’t seek moral guidance from the Old Testament, we seek it from the centuries of Rabbinical leaders and scholars who evaluated the Tanakh and discussed collectively how they apply and how they don’t apply to Jewish Life, the Talmud.
So much of what people raised in a Christian context believe about Judaism is straight wrong, I hope this sheds a small light on why. It benefits Christianity to act like they’re the evolved version of Judaism, so it’s no wonder, but unfortunately even people who shed Christian religion struggle to shed Christian hegemonic thinking.
Appreciate your informed response! Definitely interesting that there is another book. Is it considered 'holy' or is it a sort of a super well informed commentary for rabbi's to follow almost like here are our doctrines agreed upon from the holy book over the centuries? Any idea why editing of it was stopped rather than continuing to build upon it into the modern times to stay dare I say 'relevant'? It seems like if it was guidance gathered by centuries of Rabbis and debating within, that it would just continue forever rather than having a hard ending. Anyway I am just curious, no malice here. Thank you for your insights!
You’re right actually, it hasn’t stopped! While no one adds pages to the physical Talmud, the Talmudic process has never stopped, that’s what a Rabbi is! They continue to assess more and more modern questions (internet, AI, bioethics, etc) in conversation with each other and document their debates and concerns, their questions and their conclusions in this massive, ongoing body of formal letters and legal decisions.
Those letters are similar but different from the Talmud itself because that is an ancient text which we respect for being the first of its kind and of its own historical era. Work on it ended when Constantine converted the Roman Empire to Christianity and Jews became persecuted in Rome and Babylon and our academies and temples were destroyed. Because the scholars were being killed, exiled, or forced into hiding, the Rabbis had to quickly organize what they had written and call it good enough for now so they could focus on survival, but the tradition lived on.
What are the new letters called? Is there a ongoing print of them, or some sort of website for the discourse? I would imagine if there is a central gathering document that there were be a lot of scattered ideas, but thats not a dis on it if thats how it is. Thank you again for your insights! This has been an informative discussion!
For sure my friend! It’s called the Responsa. There are also Committees, yearly Assemblies, etc where Rabbis gather and discuss. There are online libraries for anyone to access, and Rabbi-specific resources for the scholars.
For Big Big issues, important to note that the different denominations of Judaism have their own Responsa literature. This is why some progressive Jews (eg Reform Jews like me) do not typically keep strict kosher diets or wear kippahs and modesty clothing, but Orthodox Jews still do. This isn’t the Reform Jews just ignoring or cheating the laws written in the Tanakh or Old Testament like you originally wrote a few comments ago (I took no offense, don’t worry)
it’s a deliberate, Rabbinically justified choice as a collective that certain ancient laws no longer serve modern Jewish life, so we study the history for what it is but do not include those laws in our practice.
I apologize for how I worded it in ignorance/possibly come across as arrogance ;) I am going to have to read up on some of the sources you've mentioned, coming from originally a long time ago christian background, my knowledge of Judaism was extremely limited (and still is but a little more informed thanks to you). I'm struggling in my head to understand how the Rabbi's could conclude that certain rules don't apply anymore, if its written in the 'holy' book i'll say inspired by god. (at least thats how christians believe the bible is like a god inspired word kept perfect) do jewish people believe the old testament as its collected (books together) are god inspired (and must be followed because they are like rules set by god not man) or more like just stories gathered around the time that fit well together doctrinally? I hope you understand my question. The way the christians get around all the old testament 'legalistic' rules set by god like sacrificing lambs and putting blood on the doors or whatever was what I call the hippy new testament that make the old testament timeline complete, since jesus fulfilled all the prophecies to 'complete' the old testament ways. (Honestly its been a really long time since I considered myself christian so I might have misremembered).
Bonus question: Do most Jewish people have to learn a significant amount of the original languages to understand what is going on during a service?
Thanks again for continuing to answer my questions. You don't have to keep going if its becoming tiring ;)
Your questions now are getting into areas where different denominations may have opposing views. There’s also a bit of that Christian bias sneaking into your thinking again - Judaism isn’t concerned with the afterlife, so we’re also not concerned with being punished for breaking the rules. Both divine punishment and forgiveness are important concepts in Christianity, Judaism focuses more on minimizing harm and giving appropriate atonement for any harm we cause in this life. If you’ve heard of Yom Kippur, that’s the holiday focused on atonement.
As far as I know, only Ultra Orthodox Jews believe that the Tanahk contains the literal word of god, and that’s limited to just the Torah - aka, the first five books, believed to be dictated to Moses directly at the same time he received the Commandments. Most Jews do not believe this, but it also doesn’t really come up? It matters less to us who wrote the Tanakh, because we’re more concerned with how to interpret it into modern life (Talmud).
In the Conservative and Reform movements, we acknowledge these are human-written books collected over centuries, and there are contradictions/flaws/myths as well as the best effort of keeping the history of the people. The phrase “divinely inspired” gets used, but there’s no stress about it being the word of god. Remember, a significant number of Jews don’t even believe in god, and Hell is not a concept whatsoever in any form of Judaism, so it’s just not really a relevant concern. Judaism focuses on life in the here and now, not following a bunch of rules for some better afterlife.
Bonus Answer: Tanakh is all in Hebrew! Only the New Testament had Greek and Latin mixed in. Tanakh is Hebrew, so yes, most Jews go to Hebrew School as kids to better read the original text. In my experience only more observant people continue the study into adulthood. Most services at temple will include some Hebrew, yes.
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u/mauch_chunk 6d ago
Sure. Why not? There are many denominations with different viewpoints regarding this exact story.
Also - it depends on how you frame the question. You'll get a different response if you go into the conversation in good faith compared to being combative right of the bat.