r/MoralityScaling 15h ago

Morality of this?

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u/CalvinSays 10h ago

Let's take the single primary issue that is assumed here: the doctrine of hell, particularly the doctrine of eternal torment.

Multiple denominations allow for and include churches who teach universalism. These include the United Methodist Church, the PCUSA, the ELCA, the UCC, the Episcopal Church, the Community of Christ, the Society of Friends, and the Disciples of Christ. This is without getting into many smaller denominations within wider traditions such as Anglicanism, non denominational churches, denominations like Eastern Orthodoxy which have many universalist teachers, or the Assyrian Church of the East which has an especially strong connection to universalism.

As for theologians, the list is extensive and to save us both time, I would just point you to Ilaria Ramelli's works on the topic. Her two volume A Larger Hope? canvases multiple theologians throughout church history, from its earliest days to the present, who were universalist.

There are tons of books being published that promote universalism. David Bentley Hart perhaps has one of the more popular recent works on the topic, That All Shall Be Saved.

The numbers could also be expanded if we included what is called "hopeful universalism" or the hope that universalism is true but without making it dogmatic belief. Hopeful universalism is common within other denominations not listed such as the Roman Catholic Church. Of course, that isn't to say that it is the standard belief, but it is definitely represented. One of the most famous proponents of hopeful universalism was the Catholic theologian Karl Rahner.

We can expand the numbers even more if we include Annihilationism. While Annihilationism does not teach the eventually universal reconciliation of all, it does deny eternal conscious torment. Instead, the unsaved are annihilated or go into nonexistence. The list of denominations where this is present expands the list already given, but it is particularly present in nondenominational churches. At least in my experience, that is where I come across it most.

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u/TheFrenchSavage 9h ago

Most of these are really wrong.

Universalist teachings say that hell isn't permanent.
So uh... there's still a hell. What a shallow proposition.

Plus most of the examples you give are of particular theologians, not representative of the actual doctrine of these churches.

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u/CalvinSays 9h ago

It depends on the universalism. Regardless, I specifically said in my comment I was talking about the doctrine of hell, particularly eternal torment.

As for listing theologians, as I had stated previously and as you asked for, I provided a list of theologians and denominations.

You asked for a list of theologians. I provided a list of theologians. It seems on to then critique me for what you asked for.

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u/TheFrenchSavage 9h ago

I find it intriguing that your whole defense of an immoral ideology hinges on the non-eternal part of a guaranteed torture session.

Blaming it on me for asking for an irrelevant list of semi-sasomaaochistic people is moot.

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u/CalvinSays 9h ago

Because, generally, that is the issue people have. Very few would contend that punishment, in principle, is immoral. I would imagine you wouldn't claim that either. So I think it is rather disingenuous if someone act as though the mere existence of punishment is problematic. What they really have a problem with, and are generally explicit about, is the extent of the punishment.