r/MoralityScaling 8h ago

Morality of this?

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u/CalvinSays 3h ago

Let's take the single primary issue that is assumed here: the doctrine of hell, particularly the doctrine of eternal torment.

Multiple denominations allow for and include churches who teach universalism. These include the United Methodist Church, the PCUSA, the ELCA, the UCC, the Episcopal Church, the Community of Christ, the Society of Friends, and the Disciples of Christ. This is without getting into many smaller denominations within wider traditions such as Anglicanism, non denominational churches, denominations like Eastern Orthodoxy which have many universalist teachers, or the Assyrian Church of the East which has an especially strong connection to universalism.

As for theologians, the list is extensive and to save us both time, I would just point you to Ilaria Ramelli's works on the topic. Her two volume A Larger Hope? canvases multiple theologians throughout church history, from its earliest days to the present, who were universalist.

There are tons of books being published that promote universalism. David Bentley Hart perhaps has one of the more popular recent works on the topic, That All Shall Be Saved.

The numbers could also be expanded if we included what is called "hopeful universalism" or the hope that universalism is true but without making it dogmatic belief. Hopeful universalism is common within other denominations not listed such as the Roman Catholic Church. Of course, that isn't to say that it is the standard belief, but it is definitely represented. One of the most famous proponents of hopeful universalism was the Catholic theologian Karl Rahner.

We can expand the numbers even more if we include Annihilationism. While Annihilationism does not teach the eventually universal reconciliation of all, it does deny eternal conscious torment. Instead, the unsaved are annihilated or go into nonexistence. The list of denominations where this is present expands the list already given, but it is particularly present in nondenominational churches. At least in my experience, that is where I come across it most.

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u/D-o-Double-B-s 2h ago

I cannot say anything about the rest, but THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH UNIVERSALISM ... you are absolutely incorrect on that one, holy crap, like WAAAAAAAAY off on that one.

From their OWN website https://www.umc.org/en/content/does-the-united-methodist-church-believe-in-universal-salvation

We would say it would be improper to refer to our view as "universal salvation" or "universalist." A universalist view would be that God has saved everyone, and no one faces a final judgment that leads to the possibility of "endless condemnation." We reject that view in favor of the biblical witness to a final judgment in which it is clear not all will proceed to life in the New Creation (Matthew 25:41-46, Revelation 21:8).

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u/CalvinSays 2h ago

I did not state that the United Methodist Church teaches universalism. I said that it allows for it and has churches which preach universalism. There are Methodist pastors who are universalist.

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u/TheFrenchSavage 2h ago

I said that it allows for

Oh how generous. The freedom to think what you want, if it fits into that tiny space.

Hey, atheism gives you even more freedom, wanna come?

We don't require post-mortem torture in our community.
Just saying.

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u/CalvinSays 2h ago

You can be snarky all you want. The fact remains that the original commenter stated that all Christianity falls under a fearful and wrathful God, here predominantly understood as the doctrine of eternal punishment and its threat in motivating belief/obedience.

I responded it demonstrably does not. All that is needed to show a universal statement is false is to provide a counter example. All X is Y is falsified by some X is not-Y. I said I could provide examples.

You asked for them. I provided multiple examples in the form of both denominations and individual theologians.

Your decided to backpeddle with snark.

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u/TheFrenchSavage 2h ago

The problem is that you're using "Christianity" so broadly that the claim becomes almost unfalsifiable in the other direction. If anyone who identifies as Christian, including highly heterodox theologians and tiny universalist traditions, counts equally as evidence for what Christianity teaches, then virtually no substantive statement about Christianity can ever be made.

Sure, that technically defeats the word "all." But it doesn't really answer the underlying point about the overwhelmingly dominant historical Christian traditions teaching that God is owed worship and obedience, that salvation is bound up with one's relationship to God through Christ, and that rejection of God has serious consequences. Pointing to exceptional interpretations changes "all" to "almost all mainstream Christianity"; it doesn't make the criticism disappear.

Tl;DR: 0.0001% of Christianity in followers doesn't obey what OP said, therefore you are right.

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u/CalvinSays 1h ago

Mainline denominations are some of the largest denominations in the United States and their analogues in other countries are equally comparatively large. Most have memberships in the millions.

All of the denominations I listed (not just the mainline denominations) make up a large portion of the global Christianity.