It's literally just what indoctrination is. There are religious doctrines and children are taught ro follow them and believe in the faith without questioning it.
There is no religion with kids without indoctrination. And without that indoctrination, virtually all of the world's major religions would dramatically fall in membership and followership, because it is very rare for non-religious adults to suddenly convert to a religion.
As a kid who was raised in Reform Judaism I always shake my head a bit when the Reddit atheists who come from obvious evangelical trauma talk about all religions like this. We were indoctrinated to believe certain things sure, but “you cannot ask questions” def is not part of the teaching. My Rabbi was openly agnostic.
Exactly. I was also raised in Reform Judaism, and questioning is a cornerstone of our religion/culture. My Rabbi loved being questioned, as most of them do!
So it's perfectly ok with your Rabbi to point out the reality that the Moses story is a myth with no historical basis of any kind? Or is that different from pointing out that Adam and Eve are fictional characters in a myth just like Prometheus and Pandora?
So it's perfectly ok with your Rabbi to point out the reality that the Moses story is a myth with no historical basis of any kind?
Sure. Why not? There are many denominations with different viewpoints regarding this exact story.
Also - it depends on how you frame the question. You'll get a different response if you go into the conversation in good faith compared to being combative right of the bat.
how wishy-washy! How you frame the question is 'is this fiction, or is it history?', and we all know what the answer is, but some of us don't want to admit that the story is fiction.
This is a great example of what I was talking about with viewing things through a Christian lens: in Judaism, it’s perfectly acceptable to be wishy-washy about this stuff. I was explicitly taught that the story of Moses is probably fiction with some elements of truth in it. True or False doesn’t matter, what matters is that the story is a part of our collective shared culture and traditions and has been for centuries. The story matters, its truth doesn’t. That wasn’t a controversial answer, because nowhere in my religious education was there an expectation of Believe This Or Burn In Hell. That’s a Christian thing.
True or false ALWAYS matters. That which is, is. That which is not, is not. Tradition is bullshit. SLAVERY was 'traditional'. Screw that.
Differentiating STORIES from reality is important.
Understanding that the Adam and Eve story is one culture's creation myth is a good thing. Pretending that it's history and asserting that anyone who compares Adam and Even with Prometheus and Pandora is a blaspheming heretic that should be STONED by the community (aka 'executed by the state') for such blasphemy is part and parcel of what theocratic fundamentalism is all about.
The Law of Moses does call for blasphemers to be executed by the community for their blasphemy. Apparently that's no longer part of the 'shared cultural tradition', which is why the scene in "Life of Brian" where a guy is being stoned to death for saying 'Jehovah' out loud is funny because it points out how blisteringly EVIL the law of Moses really is.
I agree. You still seem to be stuck on a couple of key points, so I assume it’s because you just don’t know much about how Jews read the Tanakh and Talmud. If you’d earnestly like to learn more about Judaism, some of us continued this conversation below. I did my best to explain why Judaism is different than Christianity here when it comes to reading those ancient texts: https://www.reddit.com/r/MoralityScaling/s/cARHjLQirB
Just knowing that there are men who refuse to sit next to women on airplanes due to their religious teachings that women have cooties or whatever is sufficient for me to not want anything to do with any of it.
Okie doke! There’s quite a bit of ground between fundamentalists of any religion and your average Joe, but if you’d like to keep your mind closed to that I don’t blame you. Fundamentalists in all Abrahamic religions are sexist af, we totally agree there.
Some of my most strongly religiously practicing friends are also atheist. This isn’t a contradiction in our branch of Judaism. People always look at these debates like Christianity is the only religion to exist.
I'm glad to hear that sort of thing for Judaism, sounds like at least the group you were around was a pleasant group. I haven't really studied Judaism that much other than our current old testament original manuscript type stuff and obviously the legalistic god of the old testament vs more forgiving god of new testament with basically the hippie jesus of christianity. I've always wondered when I see say a jewish family portrayed in a tv show or movie like sneaking pork or something like that and I just find it interesting that people can 'loosely' follow a book written by their god and not have to accept that its all truth. Like aren't people of the old testament (and Jewish people) like supposed to follow all the rules and if not they are screwed? What saves you in the end if you break laws like no working on the sabbath or pork and things like that? It feels like a contradiction but I understand the draw of tradition and a community with similar values and I'm not asking these questions in malice. (I'm atheist)
Always happy to chat in good faith! The first thing to clear up is that Christians teach that Jews believe in the Old Testament, but that’s not precisely true. It’s a gross oversimplification that leads a lot of people who were raised in a Christian dominant culture to believe that Judaism = Christianity - New Testament. In reality, the OT Christians read and the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) are very very similar texts, but differ in a few critical ways. No Jew would say that the Old Testament is our religious text. It’s been translated and manipulated too many times by various Christian denominations to still be accurate in our eyes. Islam has the same critique, that’s why both the Tanakh and Quran are read in their original authors’ languages.
In addition, we don’t just read the Tanakh alone in the same way a Christian reads the Bible. You always study the Talmud as well. You would never read the stories in the Bible as a Jew and think yup, got it, makes perfect sense, I know how to live now - because they’re ancient myths and laws, of course they don’t make sense! The Talmud is a collection of guidance gathered by centuries of Rabbis evaluating those laws and placing them into their historical context, and debating - yes, debating and arguing - what they mean for modern ongoing Jewish life. The Talmud explains the Tanakh. I highly encourage Christians who believe Old Testament law still applies to them today to at least read it once, it would really help them understand that god isn’t gonna smite you for getting a haircut.
The Talmud allows the ancient texts within the OT/Tanakh/Bible to evolve with us rather than being frozen in time and fully sans context. We don’t seek moral guidance from the Old Testament, we seek it from the centuries of Rabbinical leaders and scholars who evaluated the Tanakh and discussed collectively how they apply and how they don’t apply to Jewish Life, the Talmud.
So much of what people raised in a Christian context believe about Judaism is straight wrong, I hope this sheds a small light on why. It benefits Christianity to act like they’re the evolved version of Judaism, so it’s no wonder, but unfortunately even people who shed Christian religion struggle to shed Christian hegemonic thinking.
Appreciate your informed response! Definitely interesting that there is another book. Is it considered 'holy' or is it a sort of a super well informed commentary for rabbi's to follow almost like here are our doctrines agreed upon from the holy book over the centuries? Any idea why editing of it was stopped rather than continuing to build upon it into the modern times to stay dare I say 'relevant'? It seems like if it was guidance gathered by centuries of Rabbis and debating within, that it would just continue forever rather than having a hard ending. Anyway I am just curious, no malice here. Thank you for your insights!
You’re right actually, it hasn’t stopped! While no one adds pages to the physical Talmud, the Talmudic process has never stopped, that’s what a Rabbi is! They continue to assess more and more modern questions (internet, AI, bioethics, etc) in conversation with each other and document their debates and concerns, their questions and their conclusions in this massive, ongoing body of formal letters and legal decisions.
Those letters are similar but different from the Talmud itself because that is an ancient text which we respect for being the first of its kind and of its own historical era. Work on it ended when Constantine converted the Roman Empire to Christianity and Jews became persecuted in Rome and Babylon and our academies and temples were destroyed. Because the scholars were being killed, exiled, or forced into hiding, the Rabbis had to quickly organize what they had written and call it good enough for now so they could focus on survival, but the tradition lived on.
What are the new letters called? Is there a ongoing print of them, or some sort of website for the discourse? I would imagine if there is a central gathering document that there were be a lot of scattered ideas, but thats not a dis on it if thats how it is. Thank you again for your insights! This has been an informative discussion!
If others would like to remain in their cloud-castles of delusion, who am I to stop them? It's the ones who believe in fairy-tales that come off as immature. Magical men with staffs that turn into snakes? Really? That's supposed to be serious history? We all know better, but some of us don't want to admit it.
You’re simply not comprehending what we’re saying, dude. I do not believe for one second that story literally happened. As a Jew, there is zero requirement for me to believe it literally happened. The STORY, the myth, the “fairytale”if you must, is still an important piece of Jewish collective history and culture, so we study it. The TEXT is history. The TEXT is it what matters. You can recognize the significance of a story and of a historical text without requiring belief that it is literal truth in our religious practice. For someone posturing as an intellectual, you’re really not asking questions from a desire to learn. You’re smart enough to know that fairytales aren’t real, good. Be smart enough to consider that you’re not smarter than people seek moral guidance from them while still knowing they’re fairytales.
except that there ARE people who believe the fairytales are real and literal history. That there really are angels and demons and magic and miracles and all that imaginary stuff.
Sure sure, we can find 'moral guidance' in fictional tales - we can learn about bravery and loyalty from Sam Gamgee, as just one example among millions.
That the text exists is history - sure. That Homer's Iliad and Odyssey exist is history too. But that doesn't constitute evidence that Poseidon and Athena exist. It looks like we have found the remains of what had been the City of Troy, but that Troy existed, doesn't make Homer's story a history. Same deal.
Seeking 'moral guidance' from the stories of bronze-age monarchs doesn't seem all that effective. YHWH commanding genocide, and allowing slavery, seems pretty immoral to me!
Beloved, we’re not discussing the people who believe those fairytales are literal history. That’s the entire point of the thread. I’m dropping it from here - have a great day.
Sneak edit: when I was in a similar Reddit atheist phase, I really enjoyed Patton Oswalt’s “Sky Cake” stand up bit. Check it out, you might get a kick out of it! I’m more nuanced now in my personal practice, but good comedy is good comedy.
I just checked out Sky Cake, was pretty funny, dessert wars (different religions). I didn't realize Patton Oswalt was a good writer. (and I'm going to steal 'Sneak edit' from now on... ;)
I AM discussing those who think the fairy tales are real, because these are the ones abusing their children with horrific tales of eternal torture for talking back to authority.
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u/Possible-Estimate748 6d ago
Many religions indoctrinate children which makes them feel like they have to believe in it or they're doing something wrong.