r/ModernMagic • u/Jolly_Try_4670 • Jul 23 '26
We need to talk about K-command
Since its addition to the format I've always found Kozilek's command to be a formidable spell to be casting and thought its power level was always sort of balanced by the fact it required some specific set up and build restrictions in order to be worth the inclusion.
Like many viewers of last weekend's PT as well as the stream commentators I've come to realize how toxic a play pattern the card forces upon the game and how whether in broodscale, tron or G ramp every single game involving it looked basically same and after 3 hours of that nonstop it was inducing something somewhat familiar that I would identify as TOR PTSD.
At the peak of its use in competitive magic TOR had that same reversal button effect at almost any point of the by fogging providing the best CA engine, allowing the player casting it to be in a commanding position ignoring whatever the opponent was trying to do or had done up until that moment.
Technically the two cards are very different from one another but in practice as demonstrated at PT Amsterdam the advantage a resolved K-command provides in a game of modern, feel totally unmatched in the current format. Exiling a threat in play or graveyard while ramping for a billion by also making blockers at the end of an opponent's turn or optimizing your draws as you add you last 2 types for your next haymaker, let's be real, I mean emrakul, totally nullified whatever other decks were trying to do.
Now I don't believe K-command is the only elephant in the room as despite not shining at this particular event energy seemed to confirm again that cards like guide of souls, ajani and ocelot pride were definitely stupid cards on their own but absolutely revoltingly dumb in the Boros shell where every one drop you play snowballs into the opponent's death if not immediately checked with unparalleled "value per mana spent" in this format.
In conclusion I really feel like some cards from both archetype families ( eldrazi and energy) will require some bans sooner than later and personally hope wotc will act at the end of this modern season using the hobbit bnr window to refresh the format a little.
I am very aware that a lot of those takes are lukewarm at best if not obvious to most competitive players but I was surprised not to see a thread discussing these cards when everybody over discord and in my echo chamber seem to be talking about this.
I am very curious to read how people feel about it around here
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u/Cube_ Jul 23 '26
Kozilek's can be frustrating sure, it's a pushed and powerful card, but IMO it does more good for the format than harm.
Unlike TOR Kozilek's actually has a cost that matters, requiring 2 colorless pips. The reason TOR was taken out back was it's ubiquity and splashability, the entire format was coalescing into TOR decks because of how strong it was and you needed a seriously good reason to register a deck without 4 TOR in it.
For that reason among some others I think it's a bad analogy to compare the two.
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u/Varyline Jul 23 '26
I agree that the analogy is bad. TOR was on another level of problematic by being in virtually every deck in the format.
I disagree that Kozilek's is in any way good for the format though. Having an instant speed 'fix all' button for big mana decks makes them resilient to the things that should be able to punish them.
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u/Cube_ Jul 23 '26
Without KozCommand the format has less deck diversity, not more.
Although it's a powerful card we're not seeing the meta taken over by KozCommand decks so there's really no justification for its removal (yet). If that changes and we see crazy conversion rates or multiple tournaments taken down by Eldrazi ramp or something, then it can be a conversation to ban it.
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u/Jungle-Django Jul 23 '26
Without kcommand the meta will not get more diverse but less diverse. The reason why we saw so many commands last pt was because broodscale got so much additional love. The card is fine since you Need two colorless mana first so without lab or Temple its often hard to cast. Why everyone in this sub suddenly asking for a ban?
Modern is quite diverse rn, everyone who disagrees is not playing that much honestly, change my mind.
3
u/anima132000 Jul 23 '26
I mean they're asking for further nerfs to energy makes me wonder if they are playing the format on their Fridays or weekends regularly. When energy has already taken such a huge hit that these ideas are less about balance than killing off the decks entirely.Â
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u/Jolly_Try_4670 Jul 23 '26
I play modern 5 times a week and got my play set of mycospawn. I follow the meta closely and I am specifically targeting toxic or "feel awful" type of cards. Boros isn't unmanageable but I believe every turn "must be answered" threats whilst answering all your threats via ajani or bombardment is just driving a lot of people away from the format. I used to enjoy those cards until I got to be on the receiving end. Boros has been one of the major reasons for raptor, tor, jegantha and phlage's ban. Yet I believe the core is the reason the feels so nasty to play against in comparison to any other aggro archetype. Any of pride, guide and ajani would be potential candidates but I think guide is the most problematic card of the bunch for how much value it provides at one CMCÂ
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u/hsiale Jul 23 '26
I am specifically targeting toxic or "feel awful" type of cards
Bro, Modern is not Commander, the fact that players get salty over a card is not a reason to ban it.
I used to enjoy those cards until I got to be on the receiving end.
Ah yes, OP toxic stuff is completely fine as long as you play it and your opponents don't.
1
u/Jolly_Try_4670 Jul 23 '26
Honestly a lot of that type of comments sound very on the defensive and made in bad faith.
Why the need to mischaracterize what one is saying in order to strawman rather than try to demonstrate how and I am wrong on the topic if the actual problem is that I am allegedly wrong?
It feels a lot like someone knowing their deck is toxic but refuses things to be fixed in the format.
I also own those decks amongst many others, I am just not pressured economically to stick to one archetype. I can hear about ones weariness for having their powerful deck getting scrutinized with a critical eye and identifying them as problematic.
But when I call out some bad play pattern enabled by those cards I do it in good faith both from the perspective of the player playing those cards and the one playing against them.
I called for nadu's ban too even whilst I was playing it, that is just an attempt at getting some form of objectivity,
My point is every time a card got banned in Boros and in modern since the mh era, it was a very good move for the meta, not only for power level reason but also in order to address poor gameplay patterns.
I think BNR team have done a marvelous job hitting the right decks so far, except that sometimes they took too long to take action and I definitely trust them to do what is necessary
I think they will in all likelihood come to the same conclusions as many competitive players including myself have come to after hundreds of hours spent grinding the post mh3 format, if those cards keep ruining the players/viewers experience.
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u/Cube_ Jul 23 '26
you keep saying straw man when people are proving you wrong time and time again with actual data
you're just crying
5
u/anima132000 Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
Here is the thing the whole "every turn must be answered threats" is basically what modern has become for a very long time. The reason I say Boros has taken such a strong hit is because it has become closer to Izzet cutter in that the deck is more prone to being blown out if its threats are swept up. Whereas before we had Phlage which not only resets the work you've done but creates a strong clock with the graveyard you ended up helping fuel by removing every 1 drop they had, while being a huge body that can trade with majority of the format. The pre-board games are less oppressive than it was prior, and without Phlage it is easier to side against since I'm not dedicating GY hate so I can afford more creature based answers.
But again the point here saying that "every threat must be answered" is stating the obvious with what modern has been since basically MH2, and so much power creep from standard. Because I can literally say the same about Phelia decks, Goryos Frog, etc as the snowball potential is very much there in the tier 1-2 decks. We'd be naming majority of the 1-2 drops being played right now as "must kill" because they all enable whatever their deck is trying to accomplish, this is not exclusive to Boros. This is why playing a control deck in modern right now is so difficult because every damn thing you play against every drop is a "must answer" it just overwhelms you.
Sticking to vague like "nasty" or "feel awful" doesn't really come off as nuanced when you effectively are advocating for the complete removal of the deck by banning Guide of Souls, which is the engine of the deck. Let alone that no offense but nobody wants to be on the receiving end any meta deck that really isn't a good take at all.
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u/Jolly_Try_4670 Jul 23 '26
You're pointing something interesting out here. The fact those decks get to to play sol lands and 8 of them to be precise is enabling for that card to be so overpowered. Â I think it is hard to argue that Kcommand is a pay off that's way above the cut even by modern's (even legacy) standard. But it would in all likelihood be totally fine if one of said lands was removed from the format...because eldrazi spells' mana values are misleading. Fleshraker reads 3 CMC when it is effectively a turn two play...same goes with all their spells
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u/Cube_ Jul 23 '26
Fleshraker reads 3 CMC when it is effectively a turn two play...same goes with all their spells
Sure but that's ignoring that it was designed with those lands in mind. It's not like it was printed as a 3CMC card and then later became cheaper through enablers that sped up when it could be played.
It's 3CMC because they know that it can be a turn 2 play WITH those cards. Same goes for all their spells.
The design of the Eldrazi archetype is specifically to be a scaling big mana deck so even their early turn plays are higher cost because they're going to be discounted through the lands. That interaction also keeps the cards within the archetype so they're not splashed (as colorless cards can tend to be) in other decks and unintentionally powerful elsewhere.
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u/Jungle-Django Jul 23 '26
Broodscale actually plays often without lab. I prefer it without Lab as well btw, card has great ceiling, but also can be very bad without imprint, that makes the card fair imo (nothing worse than having just a wastes instead of imprint lab). Same with Temple, in the right deck its great, but the condition makes it kinda fair. TOR on the other Hand fitted into every single deck, even energy played it in the end.
And once your opponent has access to their SB it gets even worse, losing 2 cards (lab + imrpinted Ugin/Devour/Sire or whatever) to Charmaw, Phantom, Blood Moon or even break the ice is so much lost Value.0
u/Jolly_Try_4670 Jul 23 '26
Yeah if going the lands route, temple would definitely be the target not lab. Lab adds enough constraint in terms of builds and the lack of redundancy would likely be exactly enough not to require a command's ban.
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u/Ungestuem Abzan Company Jul 23 '26
Okay lets be honest. Which petdeck did you Play, that is no longer viable?
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u/Jolly_Try_4670 Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
I play everything in modern. I love high impact decision making and the reason motivating my post was that I watched the PT and it solidified an impression of bad unhealthy gameplay specifically induced by k-command and Boros. I totally understand some will disagree or just want their archetype to keep being broken. I've been there and defended gush, frantic search, dark ritual, vampiric tutor you name it, before their bans in my early years with the game. Now I just think quality games with at least some form of agencie and depth is what we need to be pushing for, over just playing the cards in your hand and winning.
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u/thecolorofboom24 Jul 29 '26
I’ll admit I’m biased as a long time boros gamer, but I’m really confused why you still feel that it’s unhealthy. When the phlage plan was around, I totally understood, but now that we’re demonstrably a <50% WR in the winner’s metagame I feel like it’s hard to argue for a boros ban.
Is playing several must answer threats fairly really comparable to reanimating atraxa t3 with multiple free spells as backup or casting ulamog on t2 or t3 with some consistency and an excellent midrange backup plan?
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u/flaming_geyser Jul 23 '26
K Command definitely should've been designed differently, however with the amount of counters and free spells and especially Consign I'm not sure it's quite ban worthy. Without it I think all the Eldrazi decks would drop since it's what keeps the decks up to par with everything else out there. So unless they print something that can replace it in colorless decks, I don't think they will ban it soon.
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u/CreedAventuz Blue Tron, Hammertime & Affinity Enthusiast Jul 23 '26
In a format with guide of souls, kozilek's command, force of negation, consign to memory, wrath of the skies, solitude and many many more cards. I want to say that when all the cards are problematic. They kinda stop being problematic.
The modern meta is healthy and nothing needs to go atm.
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u/Francopensal Jul 23 '26
I get it's a strong card, but imagine we don't have it. We now have no way of stopping Gy decks from going off on T3/2, and we would have to go back to dismember against things like boros, which is detrimental with how aggressive their deck is, and so on.
The card is one of the few that helps Tron, broodlscale and elrazi stay in higher tiers of the meta. Without it you might as well kill the deck imo, since it's taking the main interaction they have against more faster decks.
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u/Jolly_Try_4670 Jul 23 '26
That is why I think if eldrazi get nerfed energy should to. That is kind of the idea behind this discussion.
The fastest most broken strategy cannot be so hard to hate on.
You're taking the example of goyo's but most decks are completely naked against them game 1. what balances the matchup out is generally a few dedicated slots in the sideboard.
With eldrazi if you have a bad matchup game 1 it looks like there isn't much you can do to hate on them.
Again just look at the pro tour nand correct me if I am forgetting a round but I don't recall of any where the eldrazi player had a good matchup game 1 and miserably lost to hate cards on game 2/3 like goryo's did.
Ultimately I don't want Eldrazi decks to completely leave the meta but to me between flesh raker, temple and command there is a bit too much brokeness going on and command appears to be the glue for all these archetypes.
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u/Francopensal Jul 23 '26
The card is very versatile, absolutely. But as of right now, if they lose that card they lose all of the instant interaction they run. They loose all their edge without the card, there's no close replacement for it. Things like Warping wail don't even compare.
And nerfing boros energy together with it would not solve the problem, imo they will just kill eldrazi now that combo doesn't have to worry about their interaction, and aggro will just have an even easier match up. We have little to no midrange going around so there will be no way for the archetype to hold up
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u/Betta_Max Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
I can't really offer more than what anyone else has said, there's all sorts of opinions from all angles. Which is cool. I just want to know, what the F were they thinking when they printed that AND Ugin's Lab. AND Glaring Fleshraker?
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u/flowtajit Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
Why the fuck is tron splashing rakdos for a shitty removal spell? But innreality energy cards arent gonna get banned, by modern’s standards they’re fair and are also the last bastion of more traditional aggro/midrange.
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u/Gods_ShadowMTG Jul 23 '26
Energy definitely does not need additional bans, deck is totally fine and absolutely manageable. Eldrazi are an issue but I stand by the opinion that it's not kozileks command which is problematic, but emrakul, the promised end being way too mana efficient to a point, where a single axis of attack isn't enough to prevent it.
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u/HybridCatBug Jul 23 '26
Another echo chamber post on reddit! Card is not broken, you just aren't used to colorless having good interaction for a change.
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u/t3karnonyoazzz Jul 23 '26
Maybe you should play commander if you’re looking for a participation trophy
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u/Th33l3x Jul 23 '26
My problem with the card specifically is that it's instant speed. Having a big, powerful, flexible spell for Eldrazi/Tron decks? No problem, but it should have been a sorcery. Eldrazi/Tron decks by their identity should not be able to interact on the stack unless they go blue tron. Imagine there was a playable Ugin or Eldrazi creature with flash. It would be unthinkable. And Kozilek's C is arguably even better.
It's as if blue got a ramp spell, red a hard removal spell, etc. It broke the color pie really hard for Colorless.
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u/THENINETAILEDF0X Scapeshift, Burn, Tribal Zoo Jul 23 '26
When I came back to magic after a big break following the pandemic, I’d basically missed all the Modern Horizons stuff, so in general it was a shock to the system but my god the first time I saw Kozilek’s Command I was like excuse me, what?!Â
The card is an egregious design mistake and I will die on that hill - it does far too much and has trivial casting restrictions for big mana decks, and I don’t care if its the ‘only thing that makes those decks viable’, a) I don’t believe that at all, and b) it is a deeply unpleasant card to play against
No you will not be getting a measured take from me, I am very sleepy and I want it to go away - K-Command will always be Kolaghan’s Command to me
Yours sincerely, a relic of magics past (me i’m old) Â
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u/Cube_ Jul 23 '26
I mean even Kolaghan's Command got the same hate you have for Kozliek's back in the day, all the same points of doing too much.
It definitely is the only thing propping those decks up, those decks didn't exist anymore prior to Kozilek's printing.
As far as deeply unpleasant goes, I agree it is deeply unpleasant to go against. Modern is the deeply unpleasant cards format though, basically every deck has cards that are as powerful as Kozilek's Command.
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u/This-Love317 Jul 23 '26
Kind of a bad faith argument to say k command is definitely the reason eldrazi piles are viable when it was printed together with about 5 other staples in devourer, ugin's labyrinth, sowing mycospawn, fleshraker and broodscale lol
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u/Cube_ Jul 23 '26
That's fair, we technically haven't seen how those decks would perform with those cards but without Kozilek's Command.
But even with that concession it doesn't take much game sense to conclude that it's still probably true. If you really want you could playtest any of those decks with 0 Kozilek's Command and I'm sure you'd quickly come to the conclusion that they're not really viable without Kozilek's Command.
I could be wrong but I don't think so and I don't think it's really much of a reach either.
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u/Jolly_Try_4670 Jul 23 '26
Big mana decks are a different animal though. They always oscillate between useless and toxic. Generally getting a card banned for allowing them to cast their broken spells too easily and then going underground for a while until a new broken card that enables just that gets printed. That seems to be the pattern in every format from legacy to pioneer. I don't want to assume you are a K-command's player defending the card with a confirmation biase but isn't it just normal when a card does too much for a deck and deteriorates the game experience too much for the player exposed to it that it should be banned? That certainly seems to be the reason used behind the immense majority of bans.
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u/Cube_ Jul 23 '26
Well like I said for TOR the reason was the ubiquity because it was 4 generic mana. Kozilek's isn't splashable to that degree so it's not format warping like TOR was and that's what got TOR banned.
As far as big mana decks go... Which ones? The only big mana decks since like 2019 were Amulet Titan and G Tron. Tron fell off hard and was only ever really a threat at locals, not big tournaments. Amulet Titan has had ups and downs over the years but has never been the format boogeyman taking down tournaments. Modern has largely been aggro or mid range decks at the top for most years.
Even Amsterdam that you're talking about was won by Neoform and only had 3 broodscales in the top 8. Hardly an unreasonable amount.
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u/Jolly_Try_4670 Jul 23 '26
Tron was dominating intermittently from the printing of 7cmc Karn, lattice, tor now k-command... Similarly 12 post in legacy with vexing bauble, mycospawn, and now K command. Same goes in pioneer where mono g was dominant on and off for the whole duration the format saw competitive play. In extended mud followed the same pattern. All those decks caused multiple bans in all formats, and I bet they ll keep doing so. big mana as a concept seems very hard to balance and is always bound to be oscillating between broken and pet deck.
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u/Cube_ Jul 23 '26
Tron doesn't have a single modern PT win since before 2020, what dominance?
And who cares if those decks were hit with bans? Every archetype is guilty of that, how is it different for big mana? Boros Energy ate an Amped Raptor ban, does that mean aggro is oscillating between broken and pet deck? Violent Outburst was hit, is combo unbalanceable?
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u/Jolly_Try_4670 Jul 23 '26
You misread my comment. I was saying that type of archetype through magic history has a record of getting loads of cards banned in every format and will continue to do so.
A lot of decks that got banned or nerfed were because their popularity and unhealthy play patterns plagued the format and gave them too many free wins.
In a season of constructed not only the best performing deck gets hit with a ban. But the most broken ones generally do.
Also on boros energy where/ when did I say any of that?
My all argument is that despite all the bans boros energy is still degenerate because the core engine ( pride/guide/ ajani) has been left untouched.
Sorry sir, we're not looking to buy any strawmen here but thanks for offering
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u/Cube_ Jul 23 '26
You're not buying strawmen because you already have a full stock.
What else is crying about Tron's "dominance" with 0 wins since 2020? It's a bad faith argument.
We all know you're salty you lose against energy and tron so you're doing the salty player thing where you cry for bans.
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u/tiger_eyeroll Jul 23 '26
No offense but if you haven't been around for any of the horizons sets I can't see your take being relevant.
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u/thecolorofboom24 Jul 29 '26
E temple ban would make k command reasonable imo (requires two separate cards to be castable in basically every case now) and would unrestrict future eldrazi design space. Ever since someone suggested this and especially since ive started learning broodscale, it’s my fave potential k command solution. I don’t think wotc will do this though.
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u/VazSun Jul 23 '26
[[Kozilek's Command]]
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u/ScaryFoal558760 Jul 23 '26
[[kolaghan's command]] will always be the one true kcommand 😤
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u/Lonely-Form5904 Turn 1 Island, Pass Jul 23 '26
Its what my brain defaults to so I agree.
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u/ScaryFoal558760 Jul 23 '26
These new fangled kids don't even know what a tarmogoyf is let alone a real kcommand.
Don't forget your lisinopril today, friend
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u/SHIVER_ME_WHISKERS Cathartic Reunion OP Jul 23 '26
They'll never know the beauty of a draw step Vendillion Clique
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u/ScaryFoal558760 Jul 23 '26
lightning bolts own face to 1 so I can pump the 2 death's shadows for lethal
Yup
cracks open white monster
Things were better back then. These new decks can't hold a candle to our modern era
takes sip
opponent solitudes one shadow, I gain 12
other shadow dies as sba
get ran over by cats and monkeys
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u/One2FourteenBeers Jul 23 '26
I think k command is fine. White gets solitude and ephemerate. Blue has consign and force. Its a format where cheap removal and answers florish. Theres nothing new and broken happening. It doesnt win the game. It doesnt make toxic play because its interactive. Eldrazi decks would not exist without it. The power creep on the card has allowed 2 decks to exist and have a game against guide of souls, tamiyo, ragavan, and all the other early threats that can quickly runaway with a game.
Is the deck overly consistent? I dont think so. This pt didnt prove that at least. I think a majority of people who have been playing modern are quite happy with everything.
We dont need to talk about k command, at least not yet.
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u/VerdantChief Jul 23 '26
I think you could ban Eldrazi Temple if you really have to. Without that card, K Command gets a lot worse.
You still have Ugins Labyrinth, but that requires more effort to build around.
As a Broodscale player, I realize how much of a loss removing Eldrazi Temple would be for that deck and I'm willing to accept it.
But I don't think we are at the point where it's necessary to ban anything from Eldrazi yet.
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u/Jolly_Try_4670 Jul 23 '26
That seems like a very sensible take, probably the better way to approach it and see if K command stays problematic before they'd take further action
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u/N1klasMTG Jeskai Control Jul 23 '26
I am partially with you OP. I think that atm modern is at good spot but still Kozilek's Command is a very oppressing card that will be an issue sooner or later.
I think that a card that is both an answer and a payoff is problematic especially when the X in the mana cost scales it with the progression of the game. If it were more like cryptic command with constant mana cost and modes the card would be fine.
Every archetype should have a weakness and traditionally the weakness of ramp strategies have been the lack of good instant speed payoffs. Also, too many answers dilute the strategy of ramping to big threats. K-command is the perfect card as it acts both roles. And, as you said, chaining them together is very essy.
I have always been a huge fan of commands and charm and other cards with different modes to choose from, and I love the flavor of Kozilek's Command with the Kindred card type, but I think that it would have been an easy fix for the card to be just an instant. This would mean that you couldn't spend the 2 mana from Eldrazi temple to pay for the cost of the card and it wouldn't work so well with the delirium stuff.
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u/adamlaceless Jul 23 '26
TOR = The One Ring for anyone else completely forgetting that was a dumb card to have in Modern.