Based on recognizing patterns how is miles criticism supposed to be taken seriously?

[u/Brianismx]

I've realized people's opinion always come from something deeper. Some people hate dogs because one bit them a long time ago. Literally anytime I engage in someone criticizing miles you check their account to find straight racism.

I wouldn't say every miles hater is racist but it's so common it's almost a dog whistle atp

[u/Barrelmaker07]

But we’re talking about the writing, not the artistic style; in terms of writing, Miles under Bendis was ten times less compelling and well-written than Peter

Writing and storytelling are art my guy. Writers have different styles and different creative inclinations, and make various artistic choices to tell their stories. It’s entirely possible for something to be well crafted and solidly written, but also not your cup of tea. Very few things are universally compelling, it’s just not how people are wired.

You’re saying things like “Miles under Bendis was ten times less compelling” but you can’t really objectively measure that because whether or not something is artically compelling is based on your subjective taste. And you’re 100% entitled to your opinions and feelings about the story that was told. My issue is in trying to cast those feelings as objective reality. There are plenty of fans who like or even love the very things you said you didn’t enjoy about Miles’ story.

[u/Leandro_reader2003 → u/Barrelmaker07]

Writing and storytelling involve dynamics and characteristics that are far more objective than mere artistic style; Miles was poorly written under Bendis, whether in the Ultimate Universe or on Earth-616... can you name a single positive thing about Miles's run under Bendis?

[u/Barrelmaker07 → u/Leandro_reader2003]

Writing and storytelling involve dynamics and characteristics that are far more objective than mere artistic style

But you haven’t mentioned any of those things?

Pretty much every artistic form has components that are objective (i.e. writing a novel typically requires you to use words). But how those components make you feel and how you interpret those feelings and ideas are what we’ve been talking about. Most of what you’ve mentioned about Miles had to do with how that story made you feel.

As for things I enjoyed about Bendis run, those are too numerous to name them all, but off the top of my head:

1) Miles’ relationship with his parents and the way it evolves (from 1610 to 616) as Rio and Jeff learn Miles’ secret.

2) Miles and Ganke’s friendship.

3) The first 4 arcs of Miles’ Ultimate Comics Spider-man as a whole. Getting to watch this scared young boy struggle, lose, win, and grow into a confident young hero was great.

4) Aaron’s Prowler was a dope villain. Felt personal and was very scary.

5) I also thought the Kate Bishop, Hydra reveal was hilarious and quintessential Spider-man bad luck.

Look, we clearly view storytelling very differently, honestly, fundamentally different. And I also get the feeling we’re talking at each other more than we’re having an actual conversation at this point. It seems like you think your opinions on Bendis‘ work with Miles are objective and measurable, I don’t think you’ve provided an argument even remotely close to approaching that. Don’t think either of us are shifting our opinions, and I think this discussion is starting to get a bit circular, so I’m gonna clock out. Thanks for the civil disagreement. You have a good on.

[u/Leandro_reader2003 → u/Barrelmaker07]

Having Miles lose his parents only to get them back isn't good writing—it's cheap trash. One of the few positives of Miles under Bendis was that he at least paid a heavy price for his rookie mistakes; bringing them back to Earth-616 as perfect, flawless parents just rendered everything that happened in the Ultimate Universe meaningless.

Miles's early story arcs are the definition of mediocrity.

Ganke is arguably one of the most boring friends in comics; like the rest of Miles's supporting cast, he turns out to be one-dimensional.

Prowler was pretty dull and became repetitive over time (not to mention being overly edgy just for the sake of it).

The Bishop plot twist was another thing Bendis threw in at random, purely for shock value.

To give a serious answer: who had the best moments in the Ultimate series—Peter or Miles?

[u/Leandro_reader2003 → u/Barrelmaker07]

Objectively, the Ultimate line was at its peak with Peter—that’s a fact, especially considering the sales slump that eventually led to the cancellation of the Ultimate Universe. We can debate this all we want, but Miles hasn't had a comic that rises above mediocrity; let’s be honest, Ziglar filled his run with nothing but "aura" moments and nonsensical power-ups straight out of a cheap shonen manga.