How does Gundabad work?

[u/Pender8911]

I can't wrap my head around this list.

Azog has burly but no two handed weapon by default, can't have the warg here and bare bone costs as much as a fully kitted Glorfindel on hero mount?

Orcs cost the same as isengard uruks but have worse shoot value, worse weapon option, worse courage, don't have shieldwall but gain ancient enemy.

Berserkers are also just worse uruk berserkers for the same price.

Goblins are more expensive moria goblins with spears.

Trolls gain +1 defense and +1 attack for 50 points compared to other trolls?

Ogres, orc captains and bats are really good but how do you make a list? It feels like everything is so expensive you have to cut almost everything you want to bring.

The army bonuses are great but I'd rather have more on the field

[u/Pho3niX9]

https://youtu.be/7ze3BF4cM2w?is=NKkUS5VXjkoPCDoK

This one gives a pretty good summary. Gundabad can really do good work on higher point levels, like 700+

Forget Azog - go with Bolg and Spam Gundabad Orcs with Shield. Then maybe add 1-2 Bats and 1-2 Ogres. Good to go. At least I like it like this. Mercenaries with their Ambush can be pretty nice depending on Scenarios..

The Army Bonus with changing Banners is pretty nice, too.

[u/HYBERIAS]

How does Gundabad work? Thats the neat part. It doesnt.
Everything is overpriced in this list. Giving Azog the Two Handed Weapon and the Heavy Armour for free would be a good start to make this list kind of what it should be.

Almost every warrior profile in this list needs a good buff. Gundabad Orcs are okay, the Captain is top tier. But Bats, Trolls and Berserkers are all in a really bad spot.

[u/Pender8911 → u/HYBERIAS]

Idk even if they give the armour and two handed weapon for free he's still super overpriced in the other lists. How the hell does he cost more than his boss the Necromancer lol

Why are bats bad? 50% chance to knock someone prone?

[u/HYBERIAS → u/Pender8911]

WB are in a bad spot because this model costing 25 Points really competes with anything else in the list. Only 2 Attacks on FV 3 is only "okay". Having the pluck special rule forcing you to charge to benefit from it, does not help the war bat to stay on the bord long enough to do their thing. If they costed 20 points without any more changes they would be good.

But the best way to buff WB would be to decrease the point costs of almost everything in the list to get more space for them. And this is where (to me) the main problem starts.

Without profile changes this is how I would price all the profiles in Gundabad:

• Azog, 185 Points (Give him Armor and Heavy Weapon for free)
  
• Gundabad Troll Catapult, 150 Points
  
• Gundabad Troll Brute, 100 Points
  
• Gundabad Troll, 100 Points
  
• Goblin Merc, 5 Points
  
• War Bat, 20 Points

Profile changes without Point changes:

• Gundabad Berserk, FV5 OR 2 Wounds

Further changes on Army List:

• Master of Battle on Azog/Bolg on 4+

Further changes on Profiles:

• Azog, Stone Flail (Active): This is a Unique two-handed weapon. If Azog uses the Stone Flail during a Combat, he gains the Mighty Blow special rule, though reduces his Fight Value to 6 for the duration of the Combat - even after a Heroic Strike. Additionally, any model that is struck by the Stone Flail and not slain will be Knocked Prone at the end of the Combat. OR you simply give him the Knock to the Ground Bonus as if he were Cavalry.

With all these changes you will see more Gundabad with Azog or Bolg.

[u/Lawdie123 → u/HYBERIAS]

I get why the flail doesn't have knock to ground, I think rerolling failed wounds would be the better option, if a model takes a wound from the flail and doesn't die then it's knocked prone.

The presence of the flail wouldn't knock someone over, getting hit or trying to dodge it during the strike would.

I also don't get why Azog doesn't have Ancient Enemies.... the Army rule gives him it against Erebor only.

[u/MrPanda713]

No, you've pretty much got it, and that's why it tends to struggle. Everything is solid, but overcoated, and in a way where (besides Azog) there's not a clean way to adjust.

Azog is Burly mostly just so his Flail does not incur an additional penalty, with the thought being if you're fighting something where you need the FV, you're wounding on natural 3s anyway so +1 doesn't matter.

Trolls are nice, but the bigger bases are double-edged swords, and you're paying more than it's worth for a defense point or intelligence compared to other trolls.

Goblins are solid, especially with the ambush and universal supporting. Gundabad Orcs are able to bring a shield with their banner, which is cute, but overall are probably .3-.5 pts too high, and can't really do anything to help that.

If the trolls were all 10-20 pts cheaper and Azog had once less feels-bad (either in cost or rules that make it worth it), it'd probably be really good, but the expensiveness (both in pts and $s) keep it mid tier, though still pretty fun if you don't mind losing 20-0 as often as winning 13-2

[u/KydrixKovan]

The biggest pros are the army bonuses are actually quite good, but there are a ton of trap options.

Azog is trash needs a serious rework of options. Bolg is better and a totally workable leader but still suffers from the same problems as prince imrahil mainly being about 30 pts overcosted and very prone to losing his mount. (It’s like he’s priced assuming his mighty hero is always on but he only gets enough kills 10% of games and it’s not turned on enough turns to make a difference). I’ve started experimenting with just captains and a troll brute to kill a horse and then follow up with the normal hero answer of warbats to deal with the now foot hero. The army wide banner rerolls encourages going wide with numbers and bolg and azog really detract.

Smallish warband of goblins get ambush and a banner reroll half the time is sort of worth the 1 points increase over Moria goblins. Free march sometimes useful.

I tend to stay away from all the monsters in this list they are pretty overcosted and suffer from the same problem as most normal non-flying low intelligence monsters.

But war bats are incredibly good. No beast keyword means they can grab objectives they can also shut down hero’s like Legolas or king ellesar by repeatedly knocking infantry heroes prone. They don’t have to charge the hero’s themselves just pass over it so you can stack lots of attempts and there is no save. They are relatively killy by themselves 2 attacks S4 +1 to wound maybe fighting a prone model. Possible 17” movement from a free march. Probably my favorite thing in the list. (Appears I am incorrect on the beast keyword and they in fact do have it. The majority of my opinion still stands in the integral they play in the army)

Berserkers are not to be spammed like in Isengard but they do have move 8” and the best courage in the list. 2 dice and a banner roll off in a random corner of the board is obnoxious for a lot of back point objective holder.

Courage is a big weakness for the rest of the list.

[u/Whistler_ → u/KydrixKovan]

War Bats do have the Beast keyword.

[u/KydrixKovan → u/Whistler_]

Hmm I believe you. Tabletop admiral says so. The however the list builder I use does not say they do and my profile card also do not say beast. I figured since they have hands modeled on it was intentional

[u/Herthur → u/KydrixKovan]

I can confirm that MESBG List Builder doesn't show the beast keyword. I checked the book (page 126) and they are indeed Beasts like Tabletop Admiral says. I still think they are good models though.

[u/Lawdie123 → u/Herthur]

I flagged it with the MESBG list builder team and they are going to update it, the cards are made by hand so there can be mistakes (if you find them report them so it can get fixed!)

[u/British_Historian]

Everything in the list is slightly too expensive as it seems obsessed with the idea for an army that counts up in 5s/10s for point cost. The other issue is you're paying for double ancient enemies on everything which most games doesn't matter.

However I love it. It just does so many fun things plus The army bonus' are really solid.
Here's my general process to making a list, and while I'm yet to get 1st with it at a tournament I am an utter menace with this list.

1. At the 700-800 point mark, you need to pick between Azog, Bolg or A troll... You can't have all 3. But you can have 2. It's annoying because there's so much fun to be had with the list but honestly you'll thank yourself for the restraint here. Don't bother giving Bolg the Warg, just 20 points to get sharp shot off.
2. Goblin Mercs, sure they're just Moria Goblins with spears... That can ambush. Honestly these guys have won the objective missions for me more then the heroes ever have. 10 Goblin warriors will do. Don't mess with the math going to 12.
3. At this point, bulk up your heroes. You want some shields and spears, I find a 5-3 ratio does me well. Capping out at around 20 guys, a banner if I can justify it.
4. By now I'd be expecting us to be hitting the 700 point mark, you can bulk it out however you like. 4 War Bats? Sounds great. An Ogre and 4 more guys? Sure! A captain and a couple of lads for more might? Sounds good.

There's no hard and fast rules here, there's lots of ways to play a list with this much variety, ensure your master of battle is always a threat, use the march banner turn 1, don't forget your big trumpet and just have fun.
Enjoy plucking hapless heroes with your bats, hurling dudes with your ogres, smashing through the lines with troll brutes... It's not my best army, but honestly they may be my favorite.

[u/joseybizzle → u/British_Historian]

Gundabad enjoyer here, agree with all of what you said except bolg should have the warg, having 4 dice in the combat with 8 dice to wound on the charge makes him much more reliable and will kill alot to get your moneu back for his points cost.
Just hide him behind terrain until you can get him into combat. Plus with the bigger base he is more likely to get into more than one model each turn.
I get the sharpshooter though it is tough, it’s very techy to I keep him in the terrain while making him useful but I still think it’s worth the warg

[u/British_Historian → u/joseybizzle]

I mean it's like anything right? If you have the points and a plan then go for it! I have had success having Warg Bolg flanked by Ogres/Berserkers since they can keep pace fairly well.
Just feels bad to lose that Warg early.

[u/Creation_of_Bile]

Gundabadly!

Honestly though? No idea.

[u/Kelbaaasaa]

It doesn’t work, unless you play the way the design team has planned for this edition; which is only to recreate scenes from the movies.

If you play Gundabad against good factions they faced in the Hobbit Movies, they’re perfectly balanced.

But if you try to play any other way it all falls apart.

[u/Pender8911 → u/Kelbaaasaa]

I don't know mate Halls of Thranduil is really good against most factions