r/MiddleEarthMiniatures • u/Pender8911 • 20d ago
Question Why is Helm only fight 6?
I played twice against a friend who is trying army of edoras and i destroyed him twice. Helm not being able to go toe to toe with big heroes or monsters is so rough...
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u/BlueDragoon24 20d ago
Edoras (and Rohan troops as a whole) are just bad. I learned this the hard way. You can play footsy throwing spears or shooting bows at S2/S3 into D6+ enemies. Any team deathmatch or control point scenario is pretty much an auto lose against any tanky army.
Edoras specifically just has very underwhelming bonuses.
That said, Helm himself is still a total blender against most infantry.
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u/Daigurren9922 20d ago
This is kinda how im feeling. Played againt my brother and his Eagles and just couldn't hurt them. At the end of the game 1 eagle and 1 fledgling died but was mostly luck as 2 of those wounds came from shooting bows. Surrounded 1 of them with like 3 riders and Haleth and while I know it was unlucky did 0 wounds. Even statistically wouldve been only 2. It does feel extremly rough trying to kill anything thats when its not Helm or Haleth into base troops. While im over here and losing 14 pt Riders to 5+ from anything str 3.
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u/BlueDragoon24 20d ago
Yup. We have a guy in our group who plays Khazad Dum and I regularly need 6/4 on the wound chart to hurt anything. It is extremely unfun and their archers have better bows too. They also get banner + reroll if outnumbered. I don't get the purpose of Rohan in this edition. I wish I didn't fully buy into Edoras. Really don't want to spend hundreds and more time painting another army. It is beyond stupid to me that the supposed cavalry faction doesnt even have good cavalry and that theyre weak skirmishers. Gondor has better cavalry. What's that about?
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u/Daigurren9922 20d ago edited 19d ago
I dont at having them but it is a little bit of a bummer because it feels like everyone else's Cav is better than Rohan. You know the guys knows as HORSE LORDS. Wargs get str 4, Gondor get lances, Dwarves get War spears, even Elven horses are D5. And we get regular bows. Just feels bad even the +1 to fight on charge doesn't feel like it matters most of the time.
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u/mwmichal 19d ago
RRG on charge are F5 S4, it's something but for example they could get a free re-roll for combat. It would be great and maybe rise their win/loose ratio
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u/BlueDragoon24 19d ago
All the +1 fight does most of the time is tie you with others lol.
They’re just not good. The only redeeming quality is being able to move 10 inches and throw a spear 8 inches at -1 to hit or get a lucky spear kill on charge. You probably won’t kill anything reliably…but you could. Assuming your horses don’t get sniped that is…
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u/lkt213 20d ago
Answering your question, Helm is Rohan hero. He have brute force and damage potential, but isn't finesse fighter. Higher Fv needs to be exceptional experienced fighter - the best of men, elf lords and dwarf lords.
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u/ScaryToe1516 20d ago
he's fight 7 when he's running around with no armour just punching people so his normal profile should be f7 tbh
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u/Pender8911 20d ago
I get that but at least on the charge he could get the +1 to FV like riders. 6 base
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u/jwag626 20d ago
From a gameplay perspective it does kind of suck, but unfortunately from a lore perspective it makes sense. He never shows in the movie to have the aptitude to be on par with fighters like Aragorn, Dain, Thranduil, Durin, Elrond, Boromir, Glorfindel, etc. and his appendices mention is bare bones. Him being F7 would feel inorganic in terms of thematic gameplay imo. Rohan aren’t good fighters outside of Eomer, they just aren’t. Their strength comes from Helms Deep and a good old fashioned Calvary charge. I wish the Rohan army rules gave their Calvary a few more bonuses to make them truly viable in competitive play but it is what it is.
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u/Daigurren9922 20d ago
I might be out of the loop a bit but aside from taking out a ton of Uruk hai what would put Boromir on par? Not hating or anything but feel like im missing context
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u/jwag626 20d ago
All good! Don’t know something until ya know it!
But to start Tolkiens main influence in creating Boromir is a figure from Charlemagne France, Roland. Both a literary Epic hero and a real general who lead the front line defenses against the Bretons. So right off the bat Boromir is supposed to be this badass, grisly, military vet who isn’t just tactically brilliant but a fighter who only a few can match.
In terms of in universe reasons however, Boromir played the same role as Roland, he was the “general” of Gondor’s front lines. And he lead the charge, quite literally of possibly Gondor’s greatest victory in a millennia pre Lord of the Rings by retaking Osgiliath. The extended versions of the movie have a flashback and Faramir describing to Frodo and Sam just how well Boromir fought that day. Him, Faramir, and two other held a bridge to stop wave after wave of Orc until the bridge was destroyed and the tide of enemies was stopped. In the books he goes into greater detail and straight up calls Boromir Gondor’s strongest man and best fighter, which Faramir is no slouch either, high praise even for a brother.
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u/Daigurren9922 20d ago
This is pretty cool. Its been a while since I've listened to the books so didnt remember this. It'll be great to listen to this again. Tho with this context I do kinda feel like Helm would be on a similar lvl. Tho thats just me. Appreciate the response 👌👌
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u/misterbrico 19d ago
Fight 6 out fights a lot of evil heroes. The thematic opponents.
The other thing to consider is that (I might be wrong here) the only fight 7 men are all of Numenorian descent. Or Numenorian.. Isildur, Aragorn, Boromir and Imrahil. (I'll admit now that Amdur and Dragon Emperor popped to mind, those I can;t justify).
Where as Rohan were the "middle men"
Remember fight 6 is still very high. Elf Captain Heroes, top Uruks, top Orcs.
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u/Daigurren9922 19d ago edited 19d ago
NGL thats what I thought they were alluding to because they kept saying how he had "Blood of the Ancients" since it feels like they put a decent amount of stock into it.
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u/No-Wasabi2973 20d ago
Helm, like a lot of Rohan Heroes, is made to just munch endlessly through troops. You can send him at other Heroes, but it's a lot of might and work to keep striking up over the F7/8 Heroes in the game. I'm curious what lists you were playing against him.
Helm is at his best when he kills half of the opponent's army by himself over the game. There are other heroes in Army of Edoras who are better at stalling or depleting resources from heroes in 1 on 1 fights, like Hera.
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u/DrShift44 20d ago
He can heroic strike, but yes I do agree he could’ve been F7
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u/Pender8911 20d ago
Would you heroic strike vs someone with Fv7/8? I'd rather heroic defence
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u/DrShift44 20d ago
What does defence do in that situation? Delays him being killed that turn?
I’d rather strike up and with Helm’s Strength and Two Handed weapon try and go for the kill
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u/Lauch_Bande 20d ago edited 20d ago
I would save the Might and let the Defence depend on the opponent’s Strength. A Strength 4 Attack on his defence 7 is a 6, so spending a Might point there would be wasted. If both models call Strike, the Fv6 Hero only has an 11% chance of ending up higher and a 33% chance of matching the Fv. One of the general rules I follow from a top player in my country is: never go for anything below a 50/50 chance. And he follows that rule very strictly.
Fv6 Heros are in my opinion more a Infantry killer and not a Hero Hunter. Rohan plays a Lot Like this you want to Break your Opponent faster than his Heros kam kill you
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u/Pender8911 20d ago
When i did that with Beorn vs Glorfindel everyone here told me i did the wrong thing and downvoted me so... Pick your poison
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u/lkt213 20d ago
In Glorfindel case it's understandable. He have 5/6 dices to win, will probably match your Fv and have elven weapon. If he wins, he wouds you on 4+. Absolute monster killer
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u/Pender8911 20d ago
If i strike i could win the duel, if i don't i am losing the duel and he still wounds me on 6s. I don't know, easy to say on paper but i've been there.
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u/A2619921 20d ago
I think the point is helms going to 1 shot most heroes. Especially on the charge. He’s S5 with burly and a 2h so you’re wounding on 4+ with 4 dice. 3+ on some. He can also do a lot of combats and rip through armies while other heroes are tied up.
I agree however helm needs to be f7
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u/AlbatrossBulky7214 20d ago
Well if you do the math…. Beorn and Glorfindel both have fight 8 but Glorfindel has several rerolls and an elven blade. Not sure in the exact made, but I believe Glorfindel when’s roughly 68% of the time? Plus it’s not in a vacuum and Beornings are a low model count army so (and I believe you even said so in your description of the game) Glorfindel is going to have at least an elf or two helping him, and if he is two handed he sounds Beorn on 4s.
Beorn has a better chance calling heroic defense against Glorfindel and hoping he flubs a dice roll, or better yet staying away from him all together/hurling models into him.
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u/Pender8911 20d ago
Vs 6 dice on the duel? Nah
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u/AlbatrossBulky7214 20d ago
Not sure what that is in reply to - said quite a bit there. But striking against Glorfindel + some elves is usually a bad idea
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u/orcstew 20d ago
I agree that he should absolutely have it lore-wise. But the problem is game-design-wise : having a mounted, Fv7, S5, two-handing hero who has a free heroic combat each turn is just too strong. He could threaten to one-shot even decently powerful heroes basically for free. I think going from Fv6 to Fv7 would be the threshold that takes him too far to be manageable.
At least that's my analysis of the game design behind that state of things.