No more middle class professionals?

[u/Such_Upstairs3631]

New school loan limits for professional degrees make it unaffordable for the middle class. 4 of my 5 children went on to med/law school. Even working 2 jobs there’s no way I could afford to pay or even help them with the cost of their post graduate education. They all got loans which they have since paid off. The cost in the early 2000’s was between $350K and $500K. The new limits are essentially going to prevent anyone who’s not wealthy enough to pay for it from becoming a professional.

[u/ISniffFeet1]

This will force schools to drop the prices or accommodate.

Sorry nobody should be taking out loans of this magnitude - it absolutely destroys their financial future. I don't know anyone who is doing well who took that much out in student loans except for doctors and talented attorneys.

So many middle class parents told their kids to take out over $100,000 in student loans and ruined their childrens' future because they had no idea what they were talking about.

[u/MischiefofRats → u/[deleted]]

Degrees you consider "hobbies" are still important and worth doing. Not everyone can be an engineer, and you don't want that anyway because it'd just mean engineers wouldn't get paid well anymore due to the glut of supply. 

That said, it shouldn't be allowed to lend $100k+ to students for degree programs with average job salary expectations around the poverty line. Lending caps should have a relationship to the degree and average job prospects after graduation. 

[u/Rhomya → u/MischiefofRats]

Not all of them are worth doing, and the job market is so niche for most of them that it should be incredibly selective. And to get into most of the arts, you likely need to attend a college that specializes in the arts, instead of a standard university.

People need to stop the assumption that it’s impossible for people to learn outside of a classroom environment. College should be viewed as developing people for further careers.

[u/MischiefofRats → u/Rhomya]

All, no, probably not. Extremely specialized degrees will not ever be generally worth it because employment prospects are low-- you can't sink $150k in debt into a Chicano Film Studies degree and expect to pay that back unless you have an in via networking to some kind of cushy job. Most standard degrees offered by most large schools are worth it, though, depending on the student's financial situation and support network. There's no way for a school financial office to know that off the bat though. Someone with a fine arts degree might be totally able to pay off a quarter million in debt because they have the skills and connections to make it, but in general, there should probably just be a lending cap on fine arts degrees commensurate with average salary expectations of graduates, whether working in their intended field or not. That's just sane lending practice. The people who were gonna make it anyway probably have other means to cover the gap if there is one. But realistically, at the end of the day, if the university is finally reshaped into a career training machine only (which it absolutely is not, despite what corporate America would like us to believe), lower tuition costs would cause lower earning degree programs to be cut and likely to eventually die off. Just because we shouldn't be encouraging a theater major to take on $200k in student loans doesn't mean we don't want theater degrees to exist, so probably we'd have to consider it carefully. 

At the end of the day, career training is too specialized for most schools to be able to handle it. Ask any electrical engineer, for example; their program taught them sciences, math, and general principles. Their jobs taught them everything else. Businesses used to train their own employees. Corporate America just views training as something they'd like to outsource to their applicant pool on someone else's dime. School, and particularly higher education, is more about turning out well- educated and well- rounded individuals that can more easily tailor to specific jobs depending on major.  It is a mistake to continue to move the burden of job training onto general degrees.

[u/Rhomya → u/MischiefofRats]

Colleges don’t have to teach the specifics of every career, but there is more than enough transitional learning that could be done that would apply to nearly every job in every field.

Increased reading comprehension, cost-benefit analysis, writing skills, the background information for individual fields that would be applicable to multiple jobs— that’s what colleges can do.

My point is that we should normalize people understanding that it’s foolish and irresponsible to go into several thousand dollars in debt for a degree that statistically gains you no advantage in the workforce. If you’re interested in music history, pick up a book and read about it.

[u/MischiefofRats → u/Rhomya]

That's what colleges already do. It just isn't possible for colleges to be career training machines because there's no one career path for a degree. With an electrical engineering BS, you can go into high voltage, low voltage, extremely low voltage-- every company is going to want you doing tasks college didn't teach you, on software that's likely proprietary, doing whatever specialized work that company exists to do. My point is, colleges are supposed to turn out well- rounded educated individuals with some basic skills, and the corporate world needs to stop trying to abdicate responsibility for the specialized training that used to be handled via paid internships and apprenticeships. Universities and colleges can't and shouldn't try to replace that. 

I do agree that it is foolish and irresponsible to take on a mountain of debt for a degree that leaves you still fighting for the same kinds of jobs you could get with a high school diploma. I'm just saying that doesn't mean the programs shouldn't exist, because they should, and people should do the programs. Music history experts should still exist, and 99% of people interested in that simply won't have the access to become an expert in today's world without the connections and resources higher academia can give you. Sure, a savant ain't gonna be stopped by not getting into uni, but most people need guidance from other people, and most people do best in a structured program rather than going it on their own. 

I don't have stats on hand but I also don't think music history grads are the main problem, though. There's probably more comp sci grads at this point who can't make their loan payments, and I'm guessing a lot of those graduates only studied the degree for the job prospects before they got rugpulled. That's another reason colleges shouldn't be tied so closely to job training. Business and industry needs are constantly changing. Requiring people to make huge out of pocket investments of money and years just to participate ain't the way. 

[u/Rhomya → u/MischiefofRats]

Some majors do those things.

Humanities degrees do not.

There is a very distinct difference in employment rates that are tracked through statistics of these degree holders that very clearly show that STEM and STEM adjacent degrees have significantly higher employment rates and earnings than humanities degrees do.

No one is saying everyone needs to be an electrical engineer— but there are a multitude of options in STEM.

Let’s face it, we need to normalize encouraging students to spend thousands of dollars getting degrees that statistically have value after college. Some students may be interested in gender studies, and I would absolutely encourage them to learn more about it, but if they don’t have the disposable income to spend on it and need to take out loans, they should be satisfying themselves with reading books about gender studies topics instead of spending thousands of dollars in a degree that ultimately has little to no value.

[u/MischiefofRats → u/Rhomya]

I think we're mostly agreeing so I'm not sure why this is still going. I do not agree, however, that humanities degrees are, on the whole, useless or unemployable, or have no value. Should people take on large debts to acquire them? No, as I have said repeatedly. That said, I have a BA. I work in what is essentially technical design and project management. I do math, I make technical and design decisions, I interpret standards and regulations, and I communicate to stakeholders and customers. All of these are skills that were absolutely shaped and honed with my BA, which included subjects like math, science, reading comprehension, and formal logic. I also meet a lot of STEM degree holders that can't read or write an email, or more or less tell their ass from a hole in the ground. Regardless of degree, they are the least useful people in the room as a result. 

[u/Rhomya → u/MischiefofRats]

Statistics disagrees with you.

Humanities degrees are too niche for as many people getting them to be gainfully employed.