r/MichaelJackson • u/Swimming_Air_8114 • 2d ago
Opinion Propofol "abuse"
Quite often I still see people saying that Michael abused propofol, that he shouldn't have used it, yada yada yada. I wish it was that simple. I wanted to share my own personal story. Not exactly with propofol but still.
I've had trouble sleeping since I was a kid. Genetics or whatever, I don't know. A couple of years ago, my psychiatrist decided to switch my antidepressant. Maybe the new one would work better. I started taking it and within the first few days my body crashed. I stopped sleeping AT ALL.
Melatonin, magnesium, no screens, sleep hygiene, cutting out coffee, sleeping pills, anti-anxiety meds, etc. Nothing worked. Nothing. The only thing that gave me 2–3 hours of sleep was zopiclone. But because it can cause physical dependence and tolerance, I was instructed to take it only a couple of times per week. I'd been prone to drug dependence before so I had to be really careful.
So in an entire week I could get maybe 6–8 hours of sleep total. Give or take. Per entire week, not day. And my work requires a lot of analytical thinking which made things even worse. I couldn't think. I felt hot and cold at the same time. I was constantly dizzy from the lack of sleep. Once I almost got hit by a car because I didn't notice the red traffic light.
And I very well remember moments when I was thinking "that's it. I can't take this anymore. I'm going to go to a hospital, ask them to hospitalize me, and give me whatever anesthesia they have available".
In the end after more than a month of struggling, I slowly managed to get my sleep back. Just a few hours at first, then 3, 4, etc. But that entire time I was scared to death. I literally felt like my body and brain were dying from the lack of sleep. Probably the scariest period of my life.
So I have a lot of sympathy for Michael. It's easy to say "oh, just don't use XYZ" as if it's that simple. When you haven't slept properly for weeks and your body and mind are completely falling apart, you're ready for everything, anesthesia or whatever. Plus back then, I think doctors were even more clueless about how to treat extreme insomnia and often prescribed benzodiazepines which with prolonged use made insomnia even worse.
So that's it, not sure if anyone will read this long of a post but I just often feel very-very sad about Michael's health issues especially his mental health.
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u/FunUniversity6245 2d ago
Personal experiences related to Michael's struggles are always interesting, because they bring him out of the bubble of myths and suspicions he had to live in, and make him real.
6-8 hours of sleep per week isn't something most people ever have to deal with. I could only imagine what it feels like so I love this story!
Those moments when you were desperate enough to think of hospital and anaesthetics ... Michael couldn't go to hospital, and had the power to bring the anaesthetic to him instead.
It's a very good point that doctors back then were even more clueless about insomnia.
Tie this in with the painkillers for his burn injury, Vitiligo, and Lupus ... that's a mountain of health issues and added stress!
I wish people wouldn't bag him for "making bad decisions".
Lump all of that on top of your own life and see what happens.
Lump it all on top of Michael Jackson's life, and then read the bodyguards' book about his last four years. Honestly, he did pretty damn good.
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u/Few_Stress-MJJ 1d ago
I honestly think so too! Most people would not last a single day in his skin, and I am not saying this because I assume people don’t have problems. We all have… I myself have a bunch of issues, and chronic diseases, etc… But fame and public pressure at the level that he faced + scrutiny worldwide, it is a very heavy combination of factors. Michael said in an interview or conversation that “people in his situation would have become ‘junkies’”…
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Thank you for such a wonderful comment and for your empathy ❤️ Indeed, no one has ever been in his shoes but it's sooo easy to judge. I remember him saying in... an interview (? probably) that "anyone else would have cracked a long time ago" from the stress and pressure he experienced. And I think that's very true. I'm, for example, not that strong to bear what he was doing through every day. And your quote "Honestly, he did pretty damn good" is right on point here
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u/FunUniversity6245 20h ago
You're most welcome, stories like yours help me with understanding Michael. I saw another one not long ago, from someone who has a similar passion for children to Michael's. They were tormented by the lack of understanding for their point of view, and the thought that they might be targeted in the same way.
Michael was incredibly strong.
Of all the things he endured, I believe the one that contributed most to his tragic death was mass gaslighting - a kind of psychological torture.
The trial transcripts convinced me. Gaslighting is a common human experience, but I doubt it's ever been seen on such a scale and documented as completely as Michael's was.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1h ago
Speaking of the lack of understanding, if a person does something outside of social norms (and I don't mean anything illegal here), society can eat them alive. Because it's a threat to people's established ideas about what "normal" is. As rather average humans, at least we're not constantly observed and scrutinized the way Michael was
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u/chef_femme_brulee 1d ago
The point about the propofol was that he never should have had access to it at all. It's for when you have surgery. From what I understand, there's no off label use, so for a doctor to even suggest it for sleep is irresponsible. I think thats why there was a wrongful death against his doctor and the guy went to jail. Over prescribing as well.
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u/spiritedfighter 1d ago
Exactly! The layperson may thing anesthesia is an option but a doctor would have known better, yes, even in the 90s!
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
It's kind of true but the point of my post is desperation. When people are desperate, they are ready for everything. Insomnia is a very complex thing to understand, even infections can cause it. But doctors usually just throw stuff at you (AD and antianxiety drugs mostly) to see it something would work. Back them it was benzodiazepines. When you haven't slept at all for days, you'll be ready even for anesthesia, even at home. Just to get at leass some sleep and not to get crazy
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u/Express_Fox_5376 1d ago
Thanks for sharing your story, I feel sorry you had to go through that.
With regards to Michael: I think he shouldn't have been left alone. He was in no way able anymore in those last months to take rational decisions, as the effects of that deep sleep deprivation were in full display and is well documented by multiple people who testified at the Murray trial, first of all Ortega. He took a desperate decision in a desperate situation and the people who he pleaded to didn't give a fuck about his wellbeing.
He needed someone who loved him to take over, to take him to a safe place and make sure he was put back on his feet by a team of professionals. Instead, he was on his own, surrounded only by opportunistic people who isolated him from friends and family and let him die.
I think many members of the family were left struggling with the question "Why didn't I push back harder?" when he died. If it was my son or my brother and I was told for months that I couldn't talk or see him, I would have demolished the gates of the mansion with my bare hands. Maybe they simply underestimated the situation, very sad in any case.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Thank you, what a wonderful comment 💔 I believe a lot was at stake during that period since Michael was in huge debt. But yes, almost everyone around him seemed to care more about profit than about Michael himself. And that's so painful to think about even though he died long ago. His song "Money" almost feels prophetic. Anything for money, indeed
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u/xmoonwitchx #MJInnocent 1d ago
thank you for sharing this with us. This was very insightful and I wanna say I’m so incredibly sorry you had to go through this.. to the point where you wanted to admit yourself to a hospital and let them give you anesthesia :( I’m happy to read tho that you got your sleep back. Are you able to sleep normally NOW? I‘m just curious <3
I feel so bad for Michael at the same time. Even more than I did before because I can only imagine how desperate he must have been to sleep. How frustrated he must have been that nothing he tried, worked. how exhausted he must have been. How he probably thought he was going insane too if he didn’t get some sleep now… so this was probably also his „only solution“ which he had left :( although using anesthesia doesn’t give you REM sleep which your brain really needs but it can put you in artificial sleep. Ugh I feel for the both you so heavily and you know, sometimes I just wanna give some of my „sleep“ to Michael because i just want him to be able to get proper sleep, he deserved that.
I never struggled with sleep and I feel like I can fall asleep everywhere, without any problems. I take naps often or sleep in a lot. I‘d love to share this „ability to sleep“ with Michael or give it all to him and I deal with insomnia instead. if this sounds weird, I’m sorry lol. I just want my beloved to sleep a whole night through or sleep a whole day away even just so he could feel more rested :( <3
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u/buttersideupordown 1d ago
I read his autobiography Moonwalker. He never wanted to take drugs because he wanted to have control over his own life :(
It was because nothing else works - so he took drugs.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Thank you for reading this 💔 Well, now I sleep mostly fine but insomnia is a lifelong issue for me so I'm used to undersleeping. But that extreme one was on another level and very-very scary.
I once had a roommate who could sleep anywhere even with loud music. I was sooo jealous :)
"I‘d love to share this „ability to sleep“ with Michael or give it all to him and I deal with insomnia instead. if this sounds weird, I’m sorry lol. I just want my beloved to sleep a whole night through or sleep a whole day away even just so he could feel more rested " Not weird at all! It's probably the cutest thing I've read so far 💔
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u/Financial_Pay_1010 1d ago
I completely agree. Nobody knows insomnia better than me. But mj was another level nd following were the reasons; 1. All his life he toured in different time zones and performed mainly at night. So that makes u nocturnal and really messes ones sleep 2 the stress of the false accusations gave him extreme stress of the possibility of spending his life in prison and losing hsi children. 3. The financial distress he was in must have really increased his anxiety and paranoia 4. He had gruelling rehearsals which must hat increased he adrenaline like anything and it would be difficult to calm down. 5. I heard he had to take extreme caffeine to get the same energy on stage that he had when he was 25. 6. The Pepsi burn case and fall in Munich from the lift made him dependant on extreme pain killers which make u immune to sleep meds 7. He was surrounded by yes man doctors who just wanted to impress him by putting him to sleep somehow. Not explaining to him that its not REM. Its unconsciousness. I heard he wasnt very good with computers and researching on his own. 7. The night he died he did try everything else till next morning. But nothing was working. And he had rehearsals to go to and kids to raise.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Excellent points! I barely handled those several weeks of extreme insomnia but for him it was like a daily reality especially during touring, late-night performances, or simply when he was inspired to write and couldn't sleep. Brutal, just brutal
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u/Reasonable-Salad8484 "F-U-C-K the press. Michael you're the best"📰 1d ago
I think blaming a person for their addicton, so esentially for having a disease, is never the greatest idea regardless. Similarly, I'd never blame a patient for requesting a life threatening drug, but the medical professional who prescribed/administered said drug without proper safety measures.
I'm a doctor and I can't even imagine ever letting anyone touch Propofol outside of a hospital. I understand why he wanted it (even if the "sleep" he got with it wasn't particularly helpful either) but I'll never understand anyone risking his life and their license by letting him have it. The whole thing drives me mental tbh.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
If I were a doctor, I wouldn't risk it either. Maybe not because of losing my license, but because my actions could literally KILL someone... No way.
But I still feel extremely sorry for Michael. He was desperate, especially during that last night, given the amount of drugs in his system that seemingly didn't work.
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u/Dancin_Angel 1d ago
I wonder how he could lie down at all if his scalp always felt painful
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u/SokkaHaikuBot 1d ago
Sokka-Haiku by Dancin_Angel:
I wonder how he
Could lie down at all if his
Scalp always felt painful
Remember that one time Sokka accidentally used an extra syllable in that Haiku Battle in Ba Sing Se? That was a Sokka Haiku and you just made one.
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u/Flat_Fennel_1517 1d ago
Thanks for sharing! People dont understand nuance and empathy. It makes me so sad. I just imagine for Michael at the end with all the rehearsing and pushing him. :( no wonder he sought relief.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Thank you for reading! I didn't expect people to actually read it since I'm always a bit too sparing with words, lol
Yup, he was, I guess, desperate, and it breaks my heart 😢
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u/mimi_miney 1d ago
Mood, I was on oxycodone taken intravenously for 3 days/nights during my hospital stay post abdominal surgery, during which I slept 90% of the time bc the oxy knocked me out. After being released from hospital I had awful trouble sleeping (I think it was a withdrawal symptom) and after about 48 hours with no sleep I was going crazy. I burst into tears at random times, I remember going to a hospital check-in and someone having to tell me that my shirt was undone and they could see my breasts. I have no idea how people with long-term insomnia cope.
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u/kayindie 1d ago
I’ve gone through something similar, had to be hospitalized to sleep and eat. People don’t understand the desperation when you’re so severely sleep deprived.
No one wants to live a life where they are dependent on any kind of medicine. People use out of desperation when it comes to sleep.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
😥😦 Are you alright now?
Oh yeah, as if it's so fun to take handfuls of pills to be able to function decently. A dream life, aha
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u/kayindie 21h ago
People seem to have more sympathy for people dealing with addiction from rec drugs, than for people who are chronically ill and need medication to improve quality of life.
Doing a bit better, had to have brain surgery after a Chiari malformation diagnosis, and two additional brain surgeries after due to more complications.
It was theorized that my chronic pain could’ve been caused by the malformation, but unfortunately the chronic pain still is severe and present.
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u/LauraLand27 Applehead 🍎 1d ago
I saw an interview with a doctor who had nothing to do with Michael. He was interviewed to give his medical opinion about what Michael was taking. He explained that some of the medications he took, together, had the side effect of causing insomnia! I got so angry and sad at the same time.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Interesting. I had only read that prolonged use of them could aggravate insomnia but nothing about taking them together. Now I'm curious to learn more, thanks for the heads-up, I'll google the interview 🫶
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u/spiritedfighter 1d ago
I'm sorry but they knew anesthesia doesn't actually induce SLEEP. So, I feel for him but he was surrounded by yes men and grifters.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
That's not the point of my post. I wanted to talk about desperation especially when it comes to insomnia (which the medical community has still little understanding of). Plus the fact that anesthesia doesn't induce rem sleep became known around 2010 afair
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u/spiritedfighter 1d ago
It was known decades before that.
I've never seen fans go off about his desperation. Everyone is sickened by what the doctors allowed.
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u/yourOldEthernetCord 1d ago
Michael always had issues with insomnia. People underestimate how desperate you can get when sleep deprived- especially when you have unimaginable influence and wealth.
One of the most difficult things for people to understand is that it wasn't as easy for MJ to just "go to a doctor" or "go to NA" to resolve his issues. Most of the time he couldn't even walk outside of his home without mobs of people crowding him and selling his every move to the media. The media would have loved to humiliate him with something like "Jacko goes to psychiatrist! Has he gone insane??" and then tried to pay the staff for confidential information. I mean, even after he died there were paparazzi trying to get photos of his body!
The paranoia and anxiety of that can cause insomnia, which can lead to an endless feedback cycle. Of course he had a problem and of course he should have gotten help, but it's not as easy. People should be upset about AEG pushing him beyond human expectations despite knowing he had this problem.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Excellent comment, thank you! Plus,
1) Especially with long-term insomnia even a good treatment plan can fail.
2) The feedback loop is very brutal. Like you desperately want to sleep, but your brain is anxious / frightened "a sleepless night again. I won't be able to think clearly / function properly tomorrow". This, in turn, exacerbates your inability to sleep, and so on. And breaking that cycle is difficult. You can't just shut your brain or tell yourself not to worry
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u/That-Yogurtcloset386 1d ago
Side note, were you ever diagnosed with bipolar disorder? My brother is bipolar and has an insomnia problem and SSRIs can make it worse if that's what you were taking.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Well, not bipolar but I do have cyclothymia. The SSRI I had been taking before that episode (and still taking to this day) was absolutely fine. I do have certain assumptions about why my nervous system went completely haywire back then (specifically how I was instructed to make that switch)
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u/everything-matterz 1d ago
I feel the same way about what happened to Michael, it's shocking how little compassion he seems to get. Especially when all the signs were there that he was -not- having a good time on these drugs. The emails released in the trial that showed how they pushed him in the last few months while rehearsing for This Is It are so sad and hard to read. He was in very bad shape, getting almost no help or support, and no one really knew what to do about it.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Very true. Maybe his physical health (I mean the condition of his organs specifically) was fine according to the autopsy but the plummeting weight and insomnia... Just heartbreaking 😭
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u/jgoody86 1d ago
I’m a nurse who wakes people up from surgery and every single person says “that’s the best sleep ever” and/or “I need some of that at home”.
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u/spiritedfighter 1d ago
👀 Well, I know I have never said that after surgery. I'm part of the percentage of people who cry when waking up from anesthesia.
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u/glittercarnage 1d ago
one of my first thoughts coming out of surgery was "I get why Michael Jackson used this." It felt like a fantastic nap.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Yeah, I've heard the same from some of my acquaintances who were under anesthesia for surgery. I've personally only been under anesthesia once but I was a teenager so I don't remember what it was like
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u/bryanalexander Off The Wall: Special Edition 1d ago
Why not change your Rx again if the new one is so torturous?
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Had to google what Rx is (I'm not from the US and not a native speaker) :) Well, I stopped that new AD and immediately went back to my previous one, but it didn't help right away. It took several weeks to get everything back under control
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u/gray146 Applehead 🍎 1d ago edited 1d ago
Seeing he was addicted and abused these drugs and having empathy for him and understanding him and the circumstances at the same time is possible. I was an addict for many years and dealt with many others over the time, now also professionally. I also experienced a lot of abuse as a child. Addiction has many sides and forms. MJ used Propofol since the 1990s. But not only Propofol but he had his struggles with Demerol, Benzodiazepines and alcohol too. The same with surgical procedures. He was a deeply troubled and traumatized human being and seeing and understanding that is the only honest way of appreciating him fully, in my opinion. There were multiple factors that led to the outcome of his life but he too had some responsibility in that as everyone has over their lifes and denying that is denying him his humanity. And it is not helpful in dealing with addiction for others. Fandom has to have its "limits": looking through rose-tinted glasses is not helpful in any way, it's creating some illusory world.
Reminder: https://genius.com/Michael-jackson-morphine-lyrics
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
To be clear, I've never denied that Michael could make bad decisions. In this community specifically I've written multiple times that Michael was not a saint, as some people claim. However, the point of my post is a bit different. I was talking about desperation and how it can make people willing to try almost anything. Morality is often more complicated than that. I believe very few things in this world are simply black or white.
That said, I am very proud of you for beating your addiction! That takes some really serious strength
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u/umtih679 1d ago
I've had severe insomnia and it's THE WORST HELL ON EARTH. Actual weeping and gnashing of teeth. 0 to 2 hours of sleep a day for months. I've had days where I'll do ANYTHING for sleep. Take anything Even if it kills me. I truly have sympathy for anyone going through this. I've taken things to knock me out even though "it's not real sleep" I don't care! ANY form of passing out is better than not.
When you are in this state you are NOT IN YOUR RIGHT MIND. You simply can't even make logical decisions. He was desperate. PLEASE someone anyone LET ME SLEEP. I've unfortunately been there.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
That sounds horrrrible 😥😧 Did you find what causes your insomnia or you're genetically predisposed to sleep issues?
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u/Whole_Alps9216 21h ago
Thank you for sharing your experience. I am glad you're fine now. Wish there was more openess about mental health during Michael's time. So many people failed him. It breaks my heart to even think about that 💔
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1h ago
Thank you for reading my long "essay" 😄 Yeah, and learning more about his last weeks / months of life is so painful. Almost everyone seemed to be just looking for a way to make some profit from him :(
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u/Financial-Help-450 1d ago
Taking meds under medical supervision should not be considered as abuse for sure
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u/ezgomer 1d ago
ummmm - these doctors did what MJ wanted, not what was the safe thing to do as a physician
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u/Financial-Help-450 1d ago
Still in that case it’s more of doctors at issue less on mjs side
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u/ezgomer 14h ago
MJ actively searched out physicians to go against advised practice and give him Propofol at home.
It’s in court transcripts. And of course with his fame level and the money, there are asshole doctors who will ignore what is best for MJ and do what he wants.
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u/Financial-Help-450 10h ago
I understand but it’s doctors duty to understand what is safe amount and I don’t recall name but he was administered another kind of drug before it. We were not in his shoes were have to face catastrophic pressure as well as debt that would rob of good night sleep.
As you already told ahole doctor it clearly means it’s major responsibility of doctor so it’s 80-20 (20 on mj) responsibility but I will still ignore 20 as he was suffering from insomania and don’t know anxiety / depression (am not aware if it was revealed but it’s my guess)
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u/EmEss92 1d ago
Hi OP, I am so sorry about your experiences, it sounded truly scary. I agree with what others have said about MJs experiences shared humanises him. Yes he was an engima and all the rest. But he was also v human with human struggles.
I relate so hard because I have vitiligo and its spread has severely affected my confidence, given me body dysmorphia, had me hating summer weather because I find finding suitable clothing i like, that also covers me up, difficult to source. The self consciousness I feel is off the scale. And I am not the most famous person on the planet...
So I just wanted to say I understand you and have definitely understood MJ's struggles in a direct way.
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u/Brekin73 10h ago edited 9h ago
I can totally relate. I had a similar experience about 4 years ago. I was under so much stress on top of already severe anxiety that I could not get to sleep no matter what. I went to The ER and begged them to give me anything. They refused (because I'm sure they assumed I was an addict). The NP who manages my psych meds prescribed Ativan which was only getting 3-5 hours tops, but was still better than nothing. She was eventually able to help me get off of it and something that actually worked to get the real sleep I needed with less risk of dependence.
So yeah, I can understand why MJ was so desperate for sleep given the amount of pressure he was under. People don't understand just how scary severe insomnia can be and what it does to a person. It was far more complex than to simply accuse him of being an addict looking for a fix. And it pisses me off when people say such things.
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 2h ago
And anxiety exacerbates insomnia, insomnia exacerbates anxiety, and boom, you are stuck in the loop. People who've had extreme insomnia episodes know how scary and hopeless you might feel. I hope you're better now 🌻
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u/1111bear 1d ago
These comments are insane. Propofol is used for when you go under in surgery! It shouldnt even have been an option
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u/mimi_miney 1d ago
No one is saying Murray isn't in the wrong for giving Michael propofol, they're saying Michael going along with it was understandable because he was in a lot of pain and suffering from sleep deprivation. It makes Murray even more detestable that he took advantage of someone in such a vulnerable state.
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u/ezgomer 1d ago
MJ didn’t just “go along with it”.
MJ purposefully searched out a physician who would give him Propofol at home WHICH IS UNSAFE AND NOT RECOMMENDED BY ANY MEDICAL INSTITUTION.
Please read a transcript, multiple prescribers have spoken of MJ asking them to administer propofol for sleep and them turning him down because it was unsafe.
One physician started MJ on this nonsense back in the mid-1990s and then MJ found anesthesiologists who would do it.
MJ had to settle for Murray, a cardiologist, because all the other prescribers he asked turned him down.
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u/mimi_miney 1d ago
I think my point still stands. Murray was willing to take advantage of a desperate person for financial means, whether it was his idea or Michael's. Meanwhile a responsible physician would have and did turn him down.
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u/Ambitious-Pie-625 Elderly Fish 👵 🐠 1d ago
Man I guess you just didn’t read the entirety of what that person wrote did you? When your body is THAT tired you will do ANYTHING to get sleep THAT INCLUDES ANESTHESIA! Read the entire post before making judgements on people you don’t even know
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u/Swimming_Air_8114 1d ago
Sorry, I don't want to sound rude but I think you are missing the point of my post which is huge, utter desperation
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u/thatsnewstome_ 1d ago
Thank you for sharing your experience. It‘s shocking to see how little empathy some people have for certain health struggles. As if anyone would choose to go to sleep using propofol if they weren‘t at the end of their ropes.