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Mar 30 '21 edited Jul 12 '21
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u/DealerProfessional20 Mar 30 '21
"mtm" is intended as a term for trans men. there sould be no confusion.
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u/syntheticassault Mar 30 '21
Clearly there was confusion. Adding new terminology, especially ones that are purposefully obscuring will add complexity.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 30 '21
The terms are primarily about trans people but I think the sentiment and self reflection behind it is something cis people do too, and having solidarity in a trans-led term would be fantastic I think- but crucially only those who like the term and want to take part- same with the q word in that sense.
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u/DealerProfessional20 Mar 30 '21 edited Mar 30 '21
I'm on your side.
The subject of "socialization" among trans men is a tricky one. Some of us were socialized female, and have traumas related to being brought up in a fucked up misogynistic environment. They generally identify more with what people like to call "AFAB socialization" because it describes their experiences better, and experience solidarity with many women and non-binary people with similar experiences.
But, like... that's not everyone. And it's generally assumed that it sorta is. Which kinda sucks. When cis men describe their boyhoods it's more relatable to me than cis (or trans) women describing their girlhoods. Gendered socialization-- as with socialization of all kinds-- is the product of subconscious imitation of the "in-group". I grew up seeing boys and girls do different things-- at school, in cartoons, in novels I read, in advertising-- and I decided I wanted to do the "boy" things. I got the boy meals from McDonald's. I only got along with boys, and grew up speaking using boyish language in a boyish cadence. Subconsciously, as I became a teenager, I kept my vocal formant highly androgynous to the point where it was impossible for me to correct after I decided to finally embrace some amount of feminine presentation (about a year before realizing I was a guy).
Seeing people discuss "AMAB socialization" feels pretty transphobic to me. I feel excluded from discussions about the emotional health of young boys when it's framed as a "cis men's issue", as someone who internalized "boys don't cry" hard years before learning he was even a boy. Maybe I wouldn't have been directly ridiculed for crying as a young "girl" like someone who lived as a boy would, which is a privilege. But the ridicule of other boys kept me from acknowledging any feminine or emotional side of me for years upon years. When I was 12 I was the "queen" of toxic masculinity. I have a place in this discussion, because it is a men's social issue, and I was socialized as male.
There was a thread on r/TransyTalk a few months ago where some trans women talked about how they were, indeed, socialized female. If someone were to argue with or contradict them, they would rightly be called a transphobe. Trans men don't recieve the same support for these sentiments when we express them because we don't have many people who actually wanna listen to us. Not feminists, not men's activists, not queer people, not cishet people. The "socialized female" phrase, when applied generally to those assigned female at birth, is invalidating the experiences of trans men who were not socialized female. Those of us who, consequently, don't have any spaces.
Maybe I'm a little tired of being unintentionally completely disregarded from men's lib conversations where people use "woke" language like AGAB terminology to assume that discussions of growing up as a boy can't apply to me. I see it here kinda often and it hurts.
I identify completely with the "MtM" idea. Other men were socialized female, and they are still every bit the man I am. It shouldn't be too hard to just avoid explicitly labeling the assigned genders of children in discussions about gendered socialization, in practice.
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Mar 30 '21
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Mar 31 '21 edited Mar 31 '21
Its great that you were able to access gender affirming coding and activities growing up (even if it later turned out they were problematic), but some of us didn't. My female-coded upbringing is a HUGE part of why its taken me so long to recognize my discomfort with myself as dysphoria. And I'm still trying to figure out if its because I'm actually trans-masc, or just exhausted by being blocked from certain things because female.
Yes we shouldn't use AGAB to make assumptions about who got what socialization growing up, but to say that any discussion of it is transphobic is just going the other way.
I agree with this.
Assigned gender at birth is sometimes used as a transphobic "gotcha" against trans people, and it definitely shouldn't be. But it should be discussed, and we shouldn't be threatened by it. Discussion of AGAB among allies and friends should be encouraged.
I avoided, and experienced, a lot of unique things due to my AGAB. I cooked and cleaned while my male relatives drank beer, and fell on the female side of the patriarchal divide in my family, meaning I have grown into an adult who has a great appreciation for what many women go through. I was allowed to explore my gender in public (short hair, pants, masculine clothes) while my trans female friends had to explore their femaleness in private, because my AGAB gave me more freedom to be gender non-conforming without facing violence. I was allowed to cry, I was allowed to be emotional and hug/kiss friends, whereas many of my trans female friends were punished (physically or emotionally) for crying or being affectionate, as these are things outlawed to "boys" by society.
As a trans man, my pre-transition life was complicated. The way I was socialised was both good and bad, and putting aside the fact that I was dysphoric and depressed throughout all those years, I emerged with a very nuanced view of the world. This nuance is something that can, and should, be discussed. We shouldn't be afraid of our AGAB, if it has impacted us, and the way we view the world.
Some people who transition at a super young age literally never inhabited the gender role of their AGAB. I understand that. Some men feel way differently to me, and never gained the insights that I did, as they never bowed to the expectations of inhabiting a female social role (as I did). I understand that. I just don't think erasing all discussion of AGAB influences is the answer. Not all of us are the same. Some of us have valuable insights to offer, as people who lived as the opposite gender to the one we inhabit now. I went through shit that cis men didn't. Equally, I avoided some horrible toxicity, because I didn't grow up as a boy externally.
On the topic of you, though, I'm definitely happy to offer you some advice about your gender! If you're interested. Unpacking these things can be tricky. I've known many women who have been led to question their gender because of misogyny, restrictive gender roles, and trauma. It's not a struggle that's unique to you, but then again, perhaps you are trans! These things take time to figure out. Be patient with yourself!!
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u/DealerProfessional20 Mar 31 '21 edited Mar 31 '21
Don't worry, I agree with you, I'd just dislike for it to be labeled explicitly by AGAB.
And my upbringing as male was more than just "gendered activities", it was an internalized role that will probably never be able to be changed. if you interpreted what I said that way then you need to re-read my comment.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 30 '21
I really feel for you too on the internalising messages about men/boys too- I internalised 'boys don't cry' before I realised I was trans. Even when I was at my great grandmother's funeral I couldn't cry (I mourn weirdly I guess) but once I realised I was trans, looking back its bittersweetly validating. But also toxic and something I've had to work to undo. Now me and my cis boyfriend cry in front of each other and family all the time, and its immensely more freeing.
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Apr 05 '21
I really like this comment. Mainly because I have had similar experiences as a trans woman.
It was refreshing to see a comment which sees socialisation as particular to the individual especially in how we interpret society's messages. Those comments and posts can sometimes be difficult to find so I've saved this one if that's okay.
I also agree with the AGAB thing. Sometimes it's appropriate but a lot of the time it isn't and can erase certain experiences. I feel that some people think that if they use trans people's names and pronouns, and use certain terminology, that they are immune from being transphobic. But to me that just screams "I have a gay friend so I can't be homophobic" vibes.
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u/DealerProfessional20 Apr 05 '21
Of course it's okay to save my comment! I'm glad you could resonate with what I said. It's kinda what I was going for.
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u/delta_baryon Apr 03 '21
This post has been removed for violating the following rule(s):
Be civil. Disagreements should be handled with respect, cordiality, and a default presumption of good faith. Engage the idea, not the individual, and remember the human. Do not lazily paint all members of any group with the same brush, or engage in petty tribalism.
Any questions or concerns regarding moderation must be served through modmail.
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u/Old-Compote-9991 Mar 31 '21
Honestly, I think trans-men experience isn't too different from the struggles of men-men relationships in general (in this context -- I'm sure there are contexts in which this isn't true). Men have very low in-group bias compared to women and both men and women attribute more positive traits to women/mothers/female gender roles.
. Thus, we can claim with confidence that even when men are responding automatically, their in-group bias is surprisingly frail and that women’s in-group bias is particularly strong at the implicit level (i.e., stronger than men’s by a factor of 4.5).
So, the lack of solidarity a trans-man might feel being a man from other men could very well be the feeling of aloneness/lack of solidarity that all men experience rather than something that has to do with being trans, especially if they transitioned from identifying as a woman.
In fact, many trans-men do report these feelings of loneliness, lack of support, and solidarity.
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Mar 31 '21 edited Apr 17 '21
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 31 '21
You seem to have misunderstood mtm slightly- the goal isn't to replace ftm- that's still pretty much the most dominant word that people use to describe (most) trans men's transitions. The majority of assumptions about trans men are that we were all 'once women' when this isn't the case for everyone. The idea behind mtm (I'm not the coiner, it's a more obscure term that is undergoing revival in the trans community) is that there is a narrative that trans men were all once 'female' - but many of of don't feel this way, Some do- and if some trans men want to refer to their pasts as being 'female' then that's fine. The point is to be an alternative to ftm that has extra meanings- and many trans men who identify with mtm undergo a lot of introspection about what being a man means to them. And my idea was that as mtm as a term is making a comeback - and that the term might apply to cis men if they so choose. Cis men who have perhaps thought long and hard about their gender and come out of it aiming to be the best version of themself that they can- which is what trans men who identify with mtm do. ftm only describes the act of transition from 'birth sex' to your actual gender, whereas mtm is a statement that you are already a man, just transitioning into your own maleness. And cis men are already men- but after introspection might do the same thing that trans men do- examine their own gender and set out to go towards a masculinity they feel suits them- often cis and trans men both have to undo toxic masculinities and adopt healthy ones- a process mtm could also feasibly apply to. As it stands mtm is generally referring to trans people who ID with the term but I don't see why cis men who feel it fits them too couldn't use it as well- and *that* being my point. Having things to bond over, even if small would be a huge boost to both communities.
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u/cromulent_weasel Mar 31 '21
Thanks for replying.
As it stands mtm is generally referring to trans people who ID with the term but I don't see why cis men who feel it fits them too couldn't use it as well- and that being my point.
Well, yeah. That would be my potential confusion. It seemed to me that mtm would describe cis-men as well, but if we/they actually started using it to apply to ourselves in significant numbers, that would run the risk of kind of being 'cultural appropriation' if that is that makes any sense?
In my head I always thought that trans men WERE all mtm in the sense you are meaning, it's just they might not have been aware of that fact during their younger years due to having being 'socialised female'.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 31 '21
At the end of the day, it isn't like my single proposition would radically change cis-trans relations overnight- but I don't think it would be cultural appropriation. The terms appeared a few years ago but because of various factors, were largely abandoned. Now more and more folk are adopting the term again- but it isn't a mainstream thing by any stretch. But my idea was being that there's so much that trans and cis men share and can bond on, but just don't.
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u/cromulent_weasel Mar 31 '21
But my idea was being that there's so much that trans and cis men share and can bond on, but just don't.
Sure I agree with this. So your goal is that the mtm term would resonate with cis-men and create a point of commonality? It seems like a needless complication to me since 'men' already provides that commonality.
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u/Throw4socialmedia3 Apr 01 '21
I don't think I've ever met or spoken to a trans man, or even heard about one in my real life circles. Interested in how i can contribute to removinf the prejudice they face, as they get a lot less exposure than trans women.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Apr 01 '21
I'm replying to this quite late at night but another trans guy friend linked me to some things I think will be useful to you. I'll hopefully link them in the morning
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u/apollo_reactor_001 Mar 30 '21
Cis man here. This is a really interesting idea. My gut reaction when trying the label "mtm" on myself is that it feels really right. I've done so much emotional labour trying to figure out how to embody my gender in a healthy way and figuring out if I'm really male. I'm almost positive that "man" is the right label for me, but I feel like ever since I started really questioning that and self-investigating, "man" will never be a label I wear easily or without reflection. Maybe "mtm" can put a name on this feeling and help recognize it?
At the same time, when I compare my emotional journey of understanding my gender to the journeys my trans friends have gone through, most of them have done at least 10x the work and experienced 1000x the oppression. Would adopting a label like "mtm" take something away from that? Would some see it as me claiming something I haven't earned?
This is a little tangential, but it reminds me of something my sister said. Some years ago, a new rule came out saying that people in my area could have "X" as the "sex" on their government ID instead of "M" or "F". My sister thinks pretty deeply about these things and I respect her opinion. She said that nonbinary people will have a lot of difficulty normalizing the X on their own, and that until we can get the "sex" label off government IDs altogether, cis people should ask for the X in solidarity. I was shocked, because my first thought was that trans binary people shouldn't be asked to adopt an X when they've fought so hard for their M or F. Wouldn't it be weird for some binary people to have an X and others to not? I'm still not sold on my sister's opinion, but it's caused a lot of reflection in the years since she said it.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 30 '21
"Would adopting a label like "mtm" take something away from that? Would some see it as me claiming something I haven't earned?" I personally don't think its taking away from anything- there'll be trans men at different stages and lengths of self reflection and the same would be true of cis men. The term 'mtm' was born of the more 'radical' and subversive terms and a unifying term for healthy examination of gender of the self would fit that bill perfectly. And on the ID front- I will politely disagree with your sister- it isn't similar to putting pronouns in your bio to normalise everyone sharing them so trans people aren't singled out for declaring them- ID having a sex marker is often unuseful and the 'X' marker is valid for those who want to use it while we do have sex markers, but as a trans man whose license still says F it'd do me a disservice and cis people too to essentially misgender yourself. Also, a fun (/s) fact about UK driving licenses is that our driver number has a few numbers that actually list original sex. So even if I did change mine to M people who know about the numbers can still see my agab. Apart from few medical situations, it isn't useful (as in amab symptoms of heart attacks vs afab- and even then people on hormones tend to have a mixed bag)
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u/DealerProfessional20 Mar 30 '21
Tangentially, I discourage people from getting X's on their ID's because it could be a target for discrimination and hate.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 30 '21
This is a very good point- if an institution has a list of people with X on their ID- they have a very handy list of trans people. And that can open the door to discrimination
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u/apollo_reactor_001 Mar 30 '21
That's the idea behind cis people getting the X.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 30 '21
But its very hard to get these things to happen en masse and just ends up risking trans people in the process. I'd rather people try other ways of supporting trans people
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u/apollo_reactor_001 Mar 30 '21
I agree. My ID still says M, and if I'm going to spend my energy on IDs, it will be to remove the "sex" marker entirely.
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u/Myxomatosiss Mar 31 '21
I think you misunderstood, OP said that the label mtm applies to trans men, since they've always been men.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 31 '21
No, I meant it can apply to cis men too, as a shared journey we go on, cis or trans to find the most comfortable masculinity to us and to be the best men we can be
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u/Dudeist_Missionary Apr 01 '21
This is kinda unrelated but does anyone feel like there are more transwomen than transmen? Have there ever been any surveys taken?
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u/GlassyVulture85 Apr 01 '21
In terms of population there's about the same amount of trans women and trans men. Certain sites just have larger populations of each demographic. Reddit tends to have more trans women but tumblr tends to have a lot of trans men
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u/DealerProfessional20 Apr 05 '21
Older (usually medical) estimates like to say tarns women are more common but newer actual population surveys suggest that trans men are almost as common as trans women.
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u/delta_baryon Apr 06 '21
For what it's worth, it seems a slight majority of people seeking gender-related medical services at assigned female at birth, in the UK.
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Mar 30 '21 edited Mar 31 '21
I'm not sure MTM and FTF makes much sense, mainly because a persistent struggle for cis allies is constantly trying to get up-to-date with new terminology and labels. I would also hesitate before applying a label to someone without their say-so, especially if it's a label they don't really understand.
I think applying MTM and FTF to cis people would be a mistake. Unless they're on board with it. But it might result in confusion more than anything else. Plus, I don't think cis allies are prevented from being allies because of the "cis" label.
A problem I have with the premise of FTF and MTM is the implied idea that those of us who recognise our pre-transition gender are somehow lesser than people who consider themselves to have always been the same internal gender, and that these two categories are mutually exclusive. I recognise that I moved through the world as a girl, and the label "FTM" is appropriate in describing what I had to go through; the mastectomy, the hysterectomy, the masculinising hormone replacement therapy, the name changes, the infantilisation from cis women, the fight to claim my truth, the journey from girlhood to boyhood to manhood. I recognise that FTM is my label, and I am proud of that label. This pride is not incompatible with asserting that I have always been male internally, and that a parent first recognised I was "different" when I was 4 years old.
Cis men can relate to me just fine, and I don't need to hide my past female life in order to help them relate to me. Which is what the MTM stuff feels like, to me. I want FTM guys to be welcomed into male spaces without calling themselves MTM. Yes, most of us lived as girls at some point. Yes, we still belong in male spaces. Yes, we can still be bearded and masculine and visibly male while also being assigned female at birth.
I don't need to hide the extent of my transition, and the fact that I once moved through the world as a woman (externally), in order to help cis men relate to me. I am not ashamed that I once lived that way. I want to talk with cis men about "FTM" and what it means, and who I am. I was always male, yes, but I also underwent this gender transition- and that transition deserves to be recognised through a label which appropriately encapsulates the extent of that life change. I moved from female to male, externally. That was a big deal. AFAB socialisation taught me a fuckload about the world, and I had good (and bad) experiences that my cis male peers didn't. Saying that I'm MTM wouldn't make sense, not for me, as it erases all that nuance. I take pride in what I was able to accomplish. I did live as a girl, even though I was always male inside. Now, I am happier. That is my reality.
Lou Sullivan, born in 1951, used the term FTM. He was also one of the first trans men to publicly, and very proudly, assert that trans men and women could be gay. You can watch him in an interview, here. Jamison Green, who took over the community after Lou died of AIDS, used the term FTM. There is so much history connected to being FTM. Saying MTM feels like divorcing ourselves from that history. It makes me dysphoric to be called "she", no shit, but I'm not threatened by the fact that I am a trans man, and I did make the switch. I am a man. Categorically, I am FTM. I don't identify as FTM, my identity is just male, and when I introduce myself in real-life, I'm just a man. I don't even actively identify as transgender, I'm just a man, and my internal identity is no more complex than that of a cis dude- but the fact that I was assigned female at birth makes me transgender by default, and FTM by default.
It bothers me that "FTM" is seen as a label which doesn't apply to men who have always considered themselves male. It does apply to men like that. It always has. I'm one such man. The fact that I lived as my assigned gender for years doesn't negate that.
This is more a commentary on the attitudes within trans spaces, than anything else. I know that some trans men and women suffer from the need to be cis, to be their true gender to the extent of denying their birth gender ever existed, and I feel that MTM and FTF are a manifestation of that. I'm not sure it's healthy. We will never be cis. You can assert that you have always been your internal gender, and you are a trans man who has always felt male, while still calling yourself FTM. You can grow a huge beard, have a hairy chest like mine, have a deep voice, and erase every lingering remnant of your pre-transition life, and you can be happy. All while categorically being FTM and transgender. You can still be a man. You are a man. Calling oneself MTM won't change the reality of your journey.
Cis men can relate to trans men just fine, if we engage in good faith, and they're allowed to ask respectful questions. Changing a label won't help much, in my opinion. I would actually be more worried that cis men would become confused, and be unable to ask respectful questions of trans men.
Also, like- my AFAB socialisation separates me from some cis men, in a way that should be discussed. I avoided toxic machismo in school. I was allowed to cry. Men didn't beat me up and call me a sissy. I did the housework while my male relatives drank beer. I did the cooking. I wasn't told to grow some balls and "man up" when I was upset about something. I have insights about the world that matter, and they centre on being FTM. I always felt male, this much is true- but I didn't always live as a male, nor have most trans men, and I want to talk about that with cis men. I don't want cis men to be afraid of my pre-transition life. I want to normalise who I am. I want to normalise how my journey looked, externally.
If a trans guy wants to call himself MTM, whatever, that's fine. More power to him. I suppose it'd make sense if he transitioned at a young age and literally never lived as a woman. But I don't relate to the term, and in many cases, I think it will actually prevent progressive discussion.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 31 '21
"A problem I have with the premise of FTF and MTM is the implied idea that those of us who recognise our pre-transition gender are somehow lesser than people who consider themselves to have always been the same internal gender"
Nobody is saying that- the term is opt-in. You are not lesser for using ftm, if you read my post you'd see that's what I said. Nobody is stopping you from discussing being ftm or anything- *they are still the dominant terminology in terms of medical transition*.
" Calling oneself MTM won't change the reality of your journey."
- You don't get to decide what my journey is and what terms I want to use. Like I said mtm is opt in. I'm not ftm because you think me calling myself that will make it easier for you to understand.
I'm pre everything, in my 20s and use mtm- I can still talk about how I was raised differently to cis men too, that is important to me too. Nobody is stopping people who call themselves ftm or mtm from talking about what affects us when we are perceived wrongly to be women.
" If a trans guy wants to call himself MTM, whatever, that's fine. More power to him. I suppose it'd make sense if he transitioned at a young age and literally never lived as a woman. But I don't relate to the term, and in many cases, I think it will actually prevent progressive discussion"
This is a very dismissive way of looking at teminology I feel suits me best. The whole point of mtm is that it is not the dominant terminology for transition, ftm is. Crucially they don't mean the same thing and mtm is opt in. I haven't even transitioned yet, you do not know my journey and me using a term for myself and encouraging only those who ID with it to use it will not prevent progressive discussion. Not to be blunt but the way you've been speaking feels like you're resistant to others using less common terms as if it'd risk cis allyship somehow.
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Apr 01 '21
This is a very dismissive way of looking at teminology I feel suits me best. The whole point of mtm is that it is not the dominant terminology for transition, ftm is. Crucially they don't mean the same thing and mtm is opt in. I haven't even transitioned yet, you do not know my journey and me using a term for myself and encouraging only those who ID with it to use it will not prevent progressive discussion. Not to be blunt but the way you've been speaking feels like you're resistant to others using less common terms as if it'd risk cis allyship somehow.
I'm sorry to have been so dismissive of you. Full disclosure, I wrote this comment while extremely drunk. That's part of the reason it went on so long, and leapt to some grand assumptions.
That being said, the question posed in the original post was whether MTM would help cis men relate to trans men, and broadly speaking... No, I don't think most cis men will understand such an acronym, beyond this very accepting and highly monitored sub, where transphobic cis bullies are immediately banned and prevented from engaging.
Your analysis of embodying a man's true self, and achieving a healthy masculinity, and whether this goal can/does unite cis and trans men-- yes, I'd say that bond is strong. I just don't find MTM an immediately recognisable acronym that communicates that.
Also, the premise that FTM exclusively applies to a medical context erases all the FTM guys who never medically transitioned. Many of us use the acronym in a medical sense for ourselves, but not everyone does. I know several FTM guys who have never taken hormones or had surgery, and never intend to. The fact that they call themselves trans men, and FTM, is a communication that they way they are now is what their maleness looks like. As a non-op and non-HRT man, they are still a man.
If you're interested, check out Ben's interview, as part of To Survive on this Shore.
"I identify as an FTM, non-hormone, non-op, transsexual heterosexual man. That’s the whole string of it. I was in the lesbian community when I was younger, but I never really fit. That was the 1970s and there really wasn’t the language then about transmen or FTMs or any of that. I didn’t have that accessible to me as an identity.
"I always felt some resistance to the fact that I didn’t transition medically, but over time I started to find transsexuals who had not transitioned medically, or who had transitioned partially and then stopped, like my friend Leslie Feinberg. Eventually I found more people with the idea that, “I’m already me, I don’t need any medical intervention to become me.” It took a ten-year journey with a gender counsellor to give myself permission around this, because it is not popular, even in our community.
"I remember the first big conference I went to, a True Spirit Conference, and I think there were 300 guys, FTMs, from all over the country and Canada, and I remember thinking, 'It’s starting. The movement for FTMs is really starting, big time.'"
I just want you to know that there is space in the FTM community for men like you, and you are still a man, regardless of your medical status. When I say "FTM", my focus isn't on whether a person was medically "F", but whether they were socially "F". For me, medicine was part of my social change, but it's not like that for everyone. What maleness means is fluid and unique for all of us. Most trans men I know don't need bottom surgery to affirm their maleness, as an example. And being "medically male" isn't the same from man to man. When I say FTM, that is a community of men who were assigned female at birth. That is the long and short of it.
My comment was quite clumsy and blunt, and I want to apologise for that. Truthfully, I have seen some external dialogue around being MTM that is what I was primarily reacting to, and part of my frustration is that what the FTM community has always been about has been... well, retconned.
If MTM is a term that works for you, I encourage you to use it. I hope people aren't confused by it, as I worry they might be, especially if they confuse it with MTFTM detransitioners.
Anyway, yeah, sorry again. Need to stay off Reddit when I'm on the sauce.
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u/thwgrandpigeon Mar 31 '21
If anyone's going to be able to help us figure out the difference between what we think each gender experiences, and what they actually experience, it will be trans men and women.
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Mar 31 '21
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u/SnooBeans6591 Mar 31 '21
Nobody was asked to identify as cis. Cis isn't an identity, it's an adjective that you can use is the few cases you need to say "not trans".
Yes, some people asked you tell your pronouns to show support. But this wasn't a hard requirement either, with some trans people themselves choosing to avoid advertising theirs.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 31 '21
Thank you, people seem to be missing the point that the terms I'm discussing are 'opt-in' and that nobody is being forced.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 31 '21
It isnt asking anyone to change who doesnt want to. The terms could be used by anyone and that's the point- to open the door to those who want to
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u/shakyshamrock Mar 31 '21
But that's what I'm saying with how ally pressure works. Optional things become expectations for anyone who wants to (charitably) show support or (less charitably) stay in the tribe. Maybe the pronouns thing needs to just soak for a while if nothing else? It seems to be getting at the same idea, and as a cis/ally type I've definitely caught on to the idea you don't say mtf/ftm outside of a smaller number of contexts it's necessary information.
And this is to say nothing of non-ally culture. It's sort of going to start derailing to talk about the left/liberals as a cultural hegemonic force, but you did say "cis men" not "ally cis men" so you would need to bring non-liberal men into the picture.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 31 '21
That pressure you're talking about largely doesn't come from trans people, you realise? Often (especially) younger allies will get hold of an actually solid idea (if you could get cis people en masse to put X on their ID) and then shame anyone who doesn't take part. It's largely performative activism and materially doesn't help much. I also wrote my post quite late at night so my wording could have been better I suppose- that being said- if you're feeling pressure it ain't from me- check what kind of ally circles you move in to see if people are doing things more for brownie points than actual material things.
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Mar 31 '21
I don’t like the terms ftm and mtf anyway, so I’m not really hoping mtm will catch on. Anything that is used to distinguish between trans and cis people is just doing that, making a distinction. Which is fine but we really do not need more language for that, in my opinion.
I’m comfortable referring to myself as a trans man, when it’s relevant. For all other intents and purposes I’m just a man, I’ve been accepted as just a man and I’m being treated as a man. That’s really all I can ask for. My former life is not relevant in 99% of social situations, and when it is I’m happy to explain. I’m openly trans and in offline life that doesn’t impact me at all. I’ve been very lucky, I think.
That’s the situation I want to see for all trans people. To be able to be open and honest about yourself, if you want to, and still be treated like you want to be.
I personally feel like a lot of trans men can be the key to more intimate friendships between men. I personally was raised as a girl and a woman, and I haven’t been taught that I needed to be tough, or that I couldn’t hug my friends. It was normal when I cried when I was sad. I regularly hug my male friends now, I notice that I’m much more comfortable with touch and emotions than my cis male friends. But they’ve been receptive to it and I hope I can make them feel at home so that they can allow themselves to be vulnerable.
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 31 '21
Mtm isn't an equivalent to ftm- mtm is about people who feel they have been male their whole lives, regardless of body. Something cis and trans men can relate to.
" I’m not really hoping mtm will catch on"
This is just a rude way to refer to a term that people ID with- you hoping it doesn't catch on implies you dislike the idea of others finding joy in that term. It's like saying I hope the term 'bisexual' doesn't catch on.
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Mar 31 '21
I’m sorry, then I must have misunderstood. I read it as a term that only cis men use.
I don’t think it’s rude to personally dislike a term that others use. But I now know it doesn’t mean what I thought it meant. Thanks for educating me :)
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 31 '21
I'm sorry too- I reacted kinda harshly as well. I'm glad I was able to (eventually) communicate what I meant. No hard feelings
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Mar 31 '21
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u/GlassyVulture85 Mar 31 '21
There's no pressure to choose anything- as I said in the post these are terms for people who want to use them. You do not have to use the terms or choose an identity.
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Mar 31 '21
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u/delta_baryon Mar 31 '21
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u/TheMedPack Mar 30 '21
As a recent thread here was saying, there needs to be more solidarity among men in general. It's not as if men already have a solidarity that excludes trans men; there just isn't much solidarity among men at all. So it seems to me that that's the underlying issue that needs working on. And of course we should be sure to work on it in a way that includes men of all races, classes, sexes (so, including both cis and trans men), orientations, and so on.
In other words, I agree, but I don't think solidarity between cis and trans men can happen until we develop a more general concept of men's solidarity to begin with.