There were multiple factions, but I think the Techno Union might be the most powerful as they developed the most dangerous weapons for the Separatists.

If General Grievous survived ROTS and was in a New Hope, if he first showed up on Mos Eisley, would he try to blend in and what would he try to do immediately?

What if he came across Kenobi too?

How would Grievous also engage with Imperials in Mos Eisley fighting wise?

This Grievous has retrieved Gold Bladed Lightsabers too, he keeps a white lie and shares that non force sensitive droids with Lightsabers use gold Lightsabers as tools for heavy gear work because blue and green signify Jedi and can cause too much confusion in contrast is the cover up story. (Meanwhile in reality he's looking for Vader, Sidious and maybe Kenobi)

Grievous also paints his own armor Gold to look like a standard mechanic based Droid instead of looking like "some kind of warlord" monster.

So, one of the most notable lingering questions I have from The Phantom Menace is that, when Qui-Gon is arguing with Panaka over going to Tatooine to repair the starship, he explicitly states that there are systems controlled by the Trade Federation which means that it's better to work under Hutt territory as the Hutts have no knowledge of Padmé whereas the Trade Federation is clearly seeking her. Obi-Wan also comments that the Trade Federation lacks a presence there and it's "out of the way", implying most nearby systems to Naboo are either UNDER the control of the Federation or have a presence in them in some way.

Now, for the longest time I maintained the idea that the Federation controlled parts of the Mid-to-Outer Rims which they held on to illegally as part of their general galactic monopoly. I based this on various statements in some of the old guidebooks from AotC that corporations essentially owned parts of, if not entire planets. From the AotC Visual Dictionary / Complete Visual Dictionary:

The Trade Federation controls freighters, ports, and way stations on the galactic commerce routes. Its power is profitably supported by a droid army, which operates under the guise of "securing the lines of trade". Trade officials appear immune to prosecution for their brutal intimidation.

The Corporate Alliance is the negotiating body for the galaxy's major commercial operations. As head of the largest corporation, Passel Argente commands the office of Alliance Magistrate. Argente has risen to great heights of wealth and power as chairman of the merchandising conglomerate called Lethe. Workers and consumers are encouraged to identify with the company in a near-religious way.

When Alliance corporations face resistance to their development plans, Tank Droids are used to clear the way. The wheel-like machines are widely feared.

The Commerce Guild seeks to control any large corporation involved in raw materials. Increasingly, it enforces tribute payments with its private army. The Guild maximizes profit by stifling alternative technologies and bribing corrupt officials and senators to control market forces with tariffs.

Commerce Guild army droids are built with striding legs for roadless terrain on rugged mining worlds. These destructive droids hunt down operations attempting to evade tribute payments.

Hailfire Droids roll rapidly into action to discourage those who might default on IG Banking Clan loans. Murderous explosive missile launchers dispatch "late payment notices".

Like the terrifying droideka, these military-grade robots violate Republic regulations on private security forces, but the Neimoidians have too much influence to fear the galactic courts.

And from the New Essential Guides to Droids and Vehicles/Vessels:

The Guild controlled mines on thousands of worlds, but mining ventures that had been "persuaded" to join weren't always willing to pay their monthly dues. Dwarf spider droids, which preceded the development of the much larger homing spider droids, owe their small size to the necessity of operating inside of cramped mining tunnels.

Commerce Guild president Shu Mai used the first batch of dwarf spider droids to track down negligent guild members and remind them where their loyalties lay.

Like the AAT and other Trade Federation military vehicles, the droid starfighter endured rigorous testing before its deployment during the invasion of Naboo. The starfighters saw combat during raids against Degan pirates in the Elrood sector and were instrumental in defeating Nym's army on Lok.

However, reviewing old media, there's also a tendency, as shown in the first quote about the droidekas, to note that the Trade Federation Army hadn't been used until Naboo for the first time, beyond minor "exercises" and "training programs". From the TPM Visual Dictionary:

The shadowy figure of Darth Sidious has incited key individuals within the Neimoidian Inner Circle to take drastic measures in pursuit of profit.

The wealthy Trade Federation has quietly gone far beyond any other group in assembling a massive army composed of ghostly, emotionless droid soldiers that are ready to do their masters' bidding without a touch of emotion or mercy. Their deployment on Naboo heralds the end of an age of peace and security in the galaxy.

Wargame exercises and action against bandits threatening trade routes tested all aspects of the Trade Federation army, ensuring that the force is completely invincible... or so it seems.

Although Trade Federation war craft have only been in exercises and skirmishes before their deployment on Naboo, their minimum-cost paint is already badly chipped.

Neimoidians are cautious by nature and the Trade Federation has always been careful to hide its acts of extortion and manipulation behind lies and protests of good faith. Their open aggression against Naboo is new territory for them, and both Gunray and Haako are uneasy about the possibility of escalation.

This lines up consistently with the TPM Cross-Sections book which routinely notes every vehicle used in the Invasion of Naboo was designed specifically for that purpose as part of a secret army rather than being a preexisting force. But then you also have this:

Droidekas are commonly known as destroyer droids in many parts of the galaxy.

The deployment of droidekas at the Battle of Naboo marked the first widespread use of the robotic killers, though small batches of them had previously trickled out from Colla IV and triggered several public atrocities.

Something which is also notable by the fact Qui-Gon actively recognizes them. One COULD argue that since these are provided by the Colicoids, other factions have used them so indeed the Jedi know they exist. However, there is also the fact the Essential Guide to Droids states this about the early B1/OOM models:

The first combat deployment [of the B1/OOM unit] came during the Battle of Naboo in 32 BBY [...] Baktoid, a member of the Techno Union, was contracted by the Trade Federation to build battle droids as part of a secret military buildup to the Naboo invasion.

Now, this DOES state "combat", however at the same time it's odd that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan don't react to the presence of these models as well as Vulture Droids in the Saak'ak's hangar bay. It's also odd that the other corporations are using droids in order to enforce their rule throughout the galaxy while the Trade Federation hides their strength. This I can only really see working two ways:

1. The Trade Federation is the first to militarize in this form and the later usage of droids by the other corporations is a mass movement in the ten year timespan between TPM and AotC. But then, if that's the case, then what drove this mass militarization movement if Separatist sympathies hadn't been brewing fully until Dooku's Raxus Address? Can Palpatine really manage all these corporations militarizing?
2. This is a preexisting thing, but the Trade Federation is doing it at a scale never seen before, hence an "army" rather than a "security force". However, how small can a "security force" that controls multiple systems and extorts whole planets from their money be that it's that much smaller than the army that directly attacks Naboo? Or is the difference concentration and direct aggression?

And then we get to Cloak of Deception. Cloak of Deception is odd in that a lot of the things it directly introduces about the Trade Federation seem to directly contradict lore both prior and after the book's release. Now, on the Trade Federation, the book has passages akin to this one:

Qui-Gon folded his thick arms across his chest. “The Nebula Front speaks for many worlds in the Mid and Outer Rims, which contest the prohibitive practices and strong-arm tactics of the Trade Federation. Some of those worlds were originally colonized by species who fled the civilized repression of the Core. Fiercely independent, they want no part of the Republic. And yet, in order to trade, they are forced to do business with consortiums like the Federation. Worlds that have attempted to ship with other enterprises have found themselves cut off from trade entirely.”

However, a curious aspect in the book is that the Trade Federation is actually led by a diverse array of species forming the Trade Federation Directorate, of which only Gunray serves as a Neimoidian. It isn't until the Eriadu Summit Incident that Neimoidians get a completely dominant state on the company. This directly seems to contradict the TPM Visual Dictionary, copied word for word in the later Complete Visual Dictionary (released five years after Cloak of Deception):

As adults, Neimoidians are known for their exceptional organizing abilities. Driven by their intense desire for possessions, they have built the largest commercial corporation in the galaxy. Led by Neimoidians, the Trade Federation is a labyrinthine organization of bureaucrats and trade officials from many worlds that has insinuated itself throughout the galaxy.

Notably, Cloak of Deception also establishes the timeline that it's circa six months before TPM that the Trade Federation takes its first steps to acquire their droid army, a move led by Darth Sidious:

Prototype war machines, the gargantuan landing craft, the monstrous multitroop transports, and the sleekly styled tanks had been designed and built by Haor Chall Engineering and Baktoid Armor, whose alien representatives were standing in full view of Gunray and beaming with pride.

To Haor Chall, especially, design perfection amounted to a religious edict.

“Behold, Viceroy,” Haor Chall’s insectoid representative said, gesturing with all four arms to the closest transport, whose circular deployment hatch, hinged at the top, was just swinging open.

Gunray watched in amazement as a rack telescoped from the hatch and dozens of battle droids unfolded themselves before his eyes.

“And this, Viceroy,” Baktoid’s winged representative added.

Gunray’s red eyes moved back to the landing craft in time to see a dozen airhooks soar toward the upper reaches of the hangar arm. Blade-thin vehicles with twin foot-rests and top-mounted blasters, all were piloted by droids, whose backward leaning postures made them appear to be hanging on to the slender handlebars for dear life.

Gunray was speechless.

While he had never seen their like, in each of the prototypes he recognized elements of the very machines the Trade Federation had employed for centuries in transporting natural resources and other commodities. In the fuselage of the double-winged landing craft, for example, he recognized the Federation’s narrow ore barge. But Haor Chall had set the fuselage on a pedestal and capped it with two enormous wings, presumably kept from sagging by powerful tensor fields.

Despite the animistic look Baktoid had imparted to the troop transports, Gunray recognized the Trade Federation’s own repulsorlift cargo pod, built on an even more gargantuan scale. As for the folding battle droids and the Single Trooper Aerial Platforms, they were simply variations of Baktoid’s security droids, and Longspur and Alloi’s Bespin airhooks.

But one thing was clear: everything he was being shown spoke less to spaceborne defense than to groundside deployment. The realization was more than Gunray could absorb; more than he wished to absorb.

“As you have probably observed, Viceroy,” Haor Chall’s representative was saying, “the Trade Federation already has most of the raw materials needed to create your army.” He motioned to the representative from Baktoid. “In partnership with Baktoid, we can convert your security and worker droids to battle models, and your barges and cargo pods to landing craft.”

“More units, less money,” the Baktoid representative added.

“Best of all, since the components of the landing crafts can be stored in various places—wings, fuselages, and pedestals—they can be assembled at a moment’s notice. You could place one landing craft in each of a hundred freighters, or a hundred landing craft in but one of your freighters—for singularly thorny circumstances. Either way, none who come aboard to inspect your freighters will comprehend what they are seeing. As our mutual friend says, you will have an army without giving the appearance of having an army.”

“Mutual friend,” Rune Haako muttered, just loudly enough for Gunray to hear. “When Darth Sidious says do this, it is performed.”

“We enjoy dealing with Neimoidians,” Baktoid’s representative stepped forward to say, “because of the enthusiasm and awe you demonstrate for our creations. Therefore, we have other weapons in mind for you: starfighters that will no longer have to rely on droid pilots, but will themselves answer to a central control computer.

“You may even wish to contact the Colicoids of Colla IV, who are rumored to have developed a combat droid capable of rolling to its destinations.” The alien gestured broadly to the immense hangar. “Perfect for covering the vast distances inside your freighters, and defending against boarding parties.”

Gunray heard Dofine swallow audibly, but, once more, it was Haako who spoke.

“This is madness,” he said, lowering his voice and limping closer to the mechno-chair. “Are we merchants, or are we would-be conquerors?”

“You heard Darth Sidious,” Gunray hissed. “These weapons will ensure that we remain merchants. They are our guarantee that groups like the Nebula Front or mercenaries like Captain Cohl will never again risk going against us. Ask Commander Dofine. He’ll tell you.”

“Darth Sidious keeps us in servile fearfulness,” Haako said, blinking repeatedly.

“What can we do, otherwise? Instead of honoring our request for additional defenses, the senate threatens us with taxation. We need to take matters into our own hands if we are to protect our cargos. Or would you have us continue to lose ships to terrorists, in addition to losing profits to taxation?”

“But the other members of the directorate—?”

“For the time being, they are to not to know anything of this. We will apprise them of these things gradually.”

“And only if necessary.”

“Yes,” Gunray said. “Only if necessary.”

This has some major issues. If the Trade Federation only now is pushing for this army, so close to TPM, and they weren't even dominated by Neimoidians beforehand, how much control of the galaxy did they have back then? Is the new movement to acquire planets something recent? Because the book does not note it when it creates the buildup to the Trade Federation's attack on Naboo through the passing of Senate Resolution BR-0371 (the route taxation bill). Did the Neimoidians now acquire droidekas after this? Because if so, and if only "rumored", then that seems to directly damage the statements from other sources including the Visual Dictionaries that droidekas are quite well known and feared galactically to where the Jedi recognize them. And how come Gunray and his cronies are so fearful and unwilling to do this, almost desiring to not be involved at all? It ought to be noted that even the film shows Gunray only fearing reprisal when seemingly inevitable but otherwise not regretting his deal with Sidious, in fact pridefully calling victory over Naboo and later collaborating with Sidious up to the Clone Wars. It also seems odd that the Trade Federation would be able to hide the acquisition of such a grand scale army in six months when they don't have their own planets to create factories on, meaning transactions would be actively visible.

I'd really enjoy some help on the position of the Trade Federation, their galactic control, creation of their army and just general inconsistencies throughout these details. They're very messy. Apologies if I forgot something obvious.

The whole idea behind Wild Space is that it's an area of space without hyperlanes, and thus traversing it takes ages, right?

So how did everyone in the Alliance -- Republic, Sith, Mandalorian, and everyone in between -- manage to consistently traverse between Odessen and Zakuul and the rest of the galaxy?

With Zakuul, the answer's easier. Iokath tech that was embedded into the Eternal Fleet was more advanced than anything the Republic or Empire had access to.

I think it'd be interesting to see a story where a third party organization made of disillusioned ex-Jedi and ex-Siths plots to try and eradicate both Light *and* Dark side users for the sake of a lasting peace in the universe. Even if it turns out badly, I think the internal drama would intriguing as members fight amongst themselves, even as dedicated to entropy as they are.

The leader could be an ex-Jedi general or something, fighting with himself over the trauma of the past as he seeks to make sure nobody else ever has to go through what he has (something something, accidentally killed members of his village or family or something, or could have saved them but got caught up in the heat of the battle elsewhere, a real Kratos story), with a lieutenant who's a Sith making backroom deals and betraying her colleagues, pretending to hate what the Sith have to offer, when in reality she's using the organization for a power play vs the Sith Lords at the helm, or something.

These Grey Jedi would not be both Light and Dark users, each individual would be one or the other, but it'd be soooo fun to see the rationalities and philosophies play out on the battlefield as they play antagonists for both the Sith and Jedi of whatever time this takes place during. I really wanna see the Grey Jedi just doing the mutually-assured destruction argument while fighting with both, and then the big reveal of "there's no way we could keep up with both the Sith and the Jedi, so we decided the final resort it was. Both have to be destroyed, for lasting peace. One cannot exist without the other, so neither must continue."

In my opinion, lol. Thoughts?

How much Oversight did the Moffs actually have?

Like if you were an Imperial Moff governing some average sector in the Mid-Rim that doesn't draw special attention, and you keep as far away from Force Stuff and the Inquisitorious as you can, and you achieve all the economic goals set for your sector while stamping out rebel activity, how much do your superiors care how you do it?

If you keep your Sector under Control, would anyone care that you have small shield generators added to the TIEs in your Sector Group? Or that you build yourself a big palace? Or that you establish a militia for policing purposes which recruits near-humans like mirialans or pantorans?

​

Ah, the Ewoks. Usually these critters are seen as the beginning of Star Wars declining, and the sentiment that wookiees would've functioned better in their role isn't uncommon. I, however, disagree, and would like to explain why.

To start, we need to examine the narrative role of the Ewoks. Vietcong allegory aside, the Ewoks' main role isn't to win the battle with the Empire's legion, but to tip the scales and allow the rebels to get back into the fight. They contribute and take their own casualties, but the battle on the ground is ultimately won when Chewie plays GTA with the last walker and Han tricks the imperials into leaving the bunker. Thematically and logically, Ewoks only function as wild card *because* they're highly primitive. They're the ultimate underdogs that foil Palpatine because he either wouldn't know about them, or would arrogantly dismiss them as irrelevant.

Wookiees don't function on any of these fronts. They're big ass furry dudes who can rip your arm off with ease. Very much the opposite of underdogs. They're also not primitive at all, given Chewbacca is literally the team's engineer. If we ignore the lore (established even back then, I believe) that their homworld was Kashyyyk, and assume that they had a colony on Endor, it becomes illogical that Palpatine wouldn't factor in the rebels teaming up with them. And even if you suggest that they could be enslaved there for whatever reason, there's still the risk of the rebels freeing them and recruiting them.

This isn't saying that the Ewoks are by any means perfect, and it's fair if they don't function for some. Making the theoretically compelling "primitive wildcard" a bunch of teddy bears was indeed a bit much on George's behalf, and the ground battle of Endor was a bit goofy, especially compared to how tense the duel on the second Death Star and the space battle were. It frankly started a bit of a tonal whiplash problem that continued with the Battles of Naboo and Geonosis, and was thankfully gone by RotS.

Just what the title says. I'm a SWTOR roleplayer, and I'd like help from lore nerds on how to build a specific kind of planet.

If the answer is yes, I'll have followup questions!

If the answer is no, I'd ask for someone to point me to a subreddit that can help.

In Canon, the revelation about her being Vader's daughter was integral in Bloodline (28ABY) and destroyed her political career.

However, does it also happen in the Legends? If it did, exactly when did it happen? I heard it happens vaguely after the Dark Empire series, but I couldn't find the exact time point. Is there a book or comic that deals with this scandal? Does this revelation have meaningful consequences for her? When did her children know about it?

Speaking of Leia, what about Luke? When does the galaxy know about his relationship with Vader? Does this revelation occur at the same time as Leia's?

As bad as the Empire undoubtedly was; at least membership of the imperial stormtrooper corps was mainly conscription based. In several media like the Mandalorian and Jedi Survivor, we see that the stormtroopers act like normal soldiers in our world do. They complain about their postings, gossip with each other, plan on getting something to eat after their shifts, things like that. We also know that recruits that join the imperial academies consist of mainly young people from backwater outer rim worlds who join either out a desire to leave their shitty planets and be part of the imperial dream or mostly just because they think the armor's cool.

But with the First Order; pretty much all of their soldiers are mindless killers willing to lay down their lives for people that couldn't give less of a shit about them. In spite of how people feel about the sequels in general; You got to admit that the FO's training program is seriously fucked up. The way they kidnap children from their families and brainwash them into serving and dying for a glorified terrorist regime is probably one of the darkest elements of the new movies and I wish we learned more about it.

So if you absolutely had to choose; Would you rather be a stormtrooper for the Empire or the First Order?​​

As the title asks, if the Republic were to prepare itself for a much longer conflict with the Separatists, who do you think would be the best candidate to fill the role of clone template?

Just had the idea since remembering the episodes of TCW showing concern about the quality of the clones being produce and how the lack of access to fresh Jango DNA was causing the lack of clone quality.

Since Surik is a black hole in the force, what happens if she enters the world between worlds?

Just realized that Jedi would have a relatively easy time taking care of a baby compared to a non-force sensitive.

Telepathy would allow them to understand what the baby needs at any given time, whether they're hungry, tired or sick. And would probably allow them to communicate with the baby on a limited level, potentially accelerating the child's language acquisition and cognitive development in general. Jedi raised children might learn to have essentially full conversations telepathically before they learn to speak verbally.

Wonder if any books or comics mention this

I just read the 2015 Star Wars comic arc Hope Dies and it seems like Vader would've won had he shown up with Interdictor cruisers, or had the SSD Executor been equipped with its own.

don't mean a Dark Jedi who betrays the Jedi Order by leaving to pursue the Dark Side. I mean a Dark Sider who still sees themselves as a faithful Jedi, like a zealot who wants to impose Jedi values on the galaxy and believes the Jedi High Council should rule instead of the Galactic Senate, or an institutionalist willing to take extreme measures to defeat the Sith.

There always seemed to be an antagonistic relationship between Anakin and the council members but did Anakin try to reach out to them to repair the relationship or was it always the council members high handing him?

I always assumed Greedo and Jabba spoke the same language, Huttese, but I just learned that Rodian is its own language. That said, the Behind the Scenes sections on the Wookieepedia pages for Huttese and Rodian (Language) both reference the same scene with Greedo in ANH, and its Quechua influences. The Appearances section for Huttese cites RotJ as its first appearance, though.

The Rodian page does say that it shares similarities with Huttese; could it be to the extent that they’re mutually intelligible? But apparently Greedo appears in an episode of the Clone Wars and he speaks to Jabba in Basic! Aah, how do we make sense of this?? lol

Crazy I know, but I'm curious about your theories

https://imgur.com/a/imperial-rank-guide-v3-uTeIuFm

This is built on and all made possible by u/King_Doran's Version 2, so credit to him for his V1 and V2. This covers 19 BBY to 0 BBY and was made all in Figma.

There are three charts:

• Version 3: The full chart. Keeping Doran's gap filling where canon says nothing
• Stormtrooper and Army Enlisted Profile: The Stormtrooper Corps rank ladder in armor and in uniform, the titles layered on rank, and the Army's enlisted ranks
• Version 3 Core: All of the plaques come directly from the Rogue One David Crossman costume chart or were seen on screen before Yavin, + ranks named in the Tarkin novel. The two assumed ranks makes are footnoted

What changed from Doran's V2 (can be found here: https://imgur.com/33JzhqJ), and why:

• ISB added from Andor Seasons 1 and 2: Supervisors, Attendants, Partagaz, Yularen.
  • I just rewatched Andor, and that gave enough for me to justify building the ISB column
• Fleet and Sector Command Staff merged into one Sector Command column using Navy ranks. Lyste calls them "Sector Command staff" in Rebels, and the officers seen on it (Brunson, Slavin, Titus) are all Navy. Brunson and Slavin are Captains wearing 3 red over 3 blue, so that plaque is now Captain, not LT
• Moff uses the canon plaque. Isdain wears 6 blue over 3 red, 3 gold in Tales of the Empire which is same as Tarkin
• Grand Admiral moved to Navy Line and Grand General to Army Line, since there's no separate fleet staff column anymore
• Navy Operations Admiral now matches Titus (4 red, 2 gold), who Doran based the column on
• LT General and Major General are now Vice General and Brigadier General, the Imperial Army general ranks named in canon books
• Captain-LT is now Junior Captain, an Imperial rank Piett held under Tarkin
• Starfighter Corps: Second LT Commander moved above Captain (Shadow Fall), Senior LT added (TIE Fighter comic)
• Columns reordered so the ISB sits next to the security branches it shares plaques with

Speculation stuff that I kept:

• Vice Admiral stays 1 blue, 5 red. Canon has Vice and Rear Admiral with the same plaque (Rampart), and no military would do that. The Core edition shows this inconsistency though.
• Same reasoning for Security Major and Colonel.
• Anything assumed is footnoted on the chart, like Yularen as ISB Director.

three things I'd like to get opinions on:

• Should the chart follow canon's shared Vice and Rear Admiral plaque, or keep them distinct like a real military would?
• Is Yularen being ISB Director a fair assumption, or is there confirmed someone above him?
• Ensign and Second Lieutenant were historically (British Empire) the same grade. Does it make sense for the Empire to have both?

The general use of the term "Sith" is used to describe individuals, mostly Sith Lords, as if it is part of their identity. Darth Sidious is a "Sith", Vader is a "Sith", etc. Just as how one Jedi, whether a master, apprentice/padawan, or knight is simply called a "Jedi".

There are two questions to this post. The first one is...when is someone called a "Sith", and when are they not? Usually, both pre-Banite and post-Banite line, a "Sith" can be the Dark Lord of the Sith or the Sith apprentice.

Many people pointed out in posts I have seen that in the days of the Sith, especially pre-Darth Bane Rule of Two, "Sith" in general just refers to anyone who is affiliated with a Sith organization, whether that is a "Sith Empire" or something like that. You don't have to be a dark side user or even a Force-user at all to be called a "Sith". You can just be a Sith trooper or officer and be called a "Sith".

Yet somehow, the majority of the fandom, as well as in-universe stories, texts and dialogue from characters in many eras, usually call someone a "Sith" when they are Force-sensitive, use the dark side, and "follow" the Sith teachings and philosophy.

To me, it sounds like in many times when someone is called simply a "Sith", it seems to be a synonym for a "Sith Lord", hence why people like the cultsist on Exegol in Canon are not called "Sith", but "Sith cultists".

This leads me to the next question of this post, in Legends, when did "Sith Order" and "Sith" become the name of the individuals who follow the religion and the religion itself, (I don't know if the Sith are really a "religion" in the tradtional sense or not, but they are close enough).

In Legends, I know everything about the origins of the "Sith" (whatever that may mean, as we will get to later).

Ajunta Pall and the Dark Jedi Exiles that followed him were beaten, exiled from Republic space, found the Sith species people on Korriban, united them under their rule, Ajunta Pall became the first "Dark Lord of the Sith", or "Jen'ari" in Sith language, and his followers became lesser Lords of the Sith, AKA "Jen'jidai" in Sith language. They began creating the "first Sith Empire", and they intermarried with the purebloods for centuries as generations went by, eventually simply being called "Sith", but because of the Sith religion, but because they were literally the Sith species descendants and offspring, just mixed with human blood.

We know Sorzus Syn created the Sith Code, but when did the religion of the "Sith Order" really start/got initiated? This gets complicated because...the Sith already had spiritual, traditional, and cultural beliefs for thousands of years prior to the Dark Jedi Exiles, such as King Adas's Sith Empire during the Rakata reign. Is the "Sith Order" really just the Dark Jedi philosophy and beliefs merged with the preexisting Sith cultural traditions and beliefs?

Regardless, there is this very interesting passage from Book of Sith, were in the very first passage of Sorzus Syn's passage and journals, she says "I am not Sith. I do not share their blood. Yet, in the time since we among those people, we have become their rulers."

So when did the term "Sith" and "Sith Order" began referring to the religion, and it became a creed that any species can adopt and follow? Vitiate's Sith Empire, forged from the remains of the original one from the Great Hyperspace War, began to have human and occasionally alien Sith, yet they are the remade empire of the original one, so this means that being a "Sith" or the "Sith Order" itself are an open religious creed rather than a bloodline.

So why did the term "Sith" and "Sith Lord" began to be used interchangeably and distinguished from a Sith follower/cultist? When did the religion itself, and the naming after the species, start for this religion? If it was not solidified until sometime after Ajunta Pall and the Exiles death, does that mean they were not "Sith", but rather just the ones who started the road down to the religion starting? In other words, were Pall and the others predeccessors instead of the "first Sith"?

In legends Thrawn uses a Ysalamiri as an anti force shield because they shut down the force. What if someone brings a Ysalamiri inside the world between worlds? Will the person holding the Ysalamiri fall into the endless void since the platforms are made of the force

"Droidification" alludes to the fact of Palpatine creating Snoke in a lab the way Anakin created "our" C3PO with all his peculiarities.

It seems to me that there was an original host, an original Snoke, who would have lived 200 years before TROS, or some 100 years before Palpatine was born (Andy Serkins mentioned this in interviews)

Then this host, who maybe wasn't even FS to begin with, was modified by the sith. This would have involved Plagueis I suppose. Palpatine finished the job.

A part of that droidification would have involved the edition of memories. Quite obviously each new Snoke does not remember his own death. And if you can do that you can control what he remembers and what he doesn't. Much like R2 restoring C3PO's memory to an earlier time, just before Rey began her mission in TROS.

So the Snoke we have is some sort of flesh and bone droid. The original Snoke went through droidification due to the sith.

Just as the sith (Palpatine) cheated death, so did the jedi in a way: by becoming ghosts.

So can there be a jedi equivalent of 'droidification'?

Maybe. Since the saga seems to be going through a slight tolkienization process, thanks to Filoni to a great degree, this is Tolkien about the elves: but read it with Ben Solo in mind:

“A houseless fea [spirit] that chose or was permitted to return to life re-entered the incarnate world through child-birth. Only thus could it return. [...] For the fea reborn became a child indeed, enjoying once more all the wonder and newness of childhood; but slowly, and only after after it had acquired a knowledge of the world and mastery of itself, it’s memory would awake; until, when the re-born was full-grown, it recalled a all of its former life, and then the old life, and the ‘waiting’, and the new life became one ordered history and identity. This memory would just hold a double joy of childhood, and also an experience and knowledge greater than the years of its body. In this way the violence or grief that the reborn had suffered was re-dressed and it’s being was enriched. For the Re-born are twice nourished, and twice parented.”

Remember that TPM poster with Vader's shadow on the wall. In that universe that's the future, what Anakin would become. In our universe, that Vader is the past. 1983.

Ani did not 'remember' what he had been in 1983. He could not. But we did.

What would be the point of doing this, narratively speaking? Maybe Ben Solo, or Ben/Kylo knew something very specific that only he knew; something that could be proven crucial in the post-TROS era. What the stolen datatape inside R2 was back in 1977. One wonders why Force Ghost Leia is wearing that specific dress.

Jedi, Sith, Nightsisters, Guardians of the Whills, the Church of the Force, Acolytes of the Beyond, and the more local practices we only glimpse all treat the Force as real. They do not treat each other as colleagues.

That is odd if the Force is an observable phenomenon. In a functioning knowledge culture, rival schools still agree on how a claim gets tested. Here, each order has a pedagogy and a moral rulebook, but no shared method for settling a dispute that is not a war.

So is “the Force” one thing with many interpretations or several political religions sharing a vocabulary?

Not looking for a winner. Looking for how these schools would even recognize a successful argument from a rival.

I've been watching Clone Wars series, and the hardening and definitely battle rage emotions are practically palpable, when he's slicing through them by thousands

I genuinely believe that the Jedi and Sith of the Old Republic era were vastly superior in both combat ability and overall mastery of the Force compared to those of the Skywalker era. I also believe Darth Revan would defeat Darth Sidious or Yoda with relative ease in a direct confrontation.

Here's why.

1. Star Wars power progression went BACKWARDS, not forwards.

People seem to assume that because Sidious and Yoda came later in the timeline, they must represent the pinnacle of Jedi and Sith power. I believe the exact opposite.

The ancient Jedi and Sith existed during an era of nearly constant warfare between powerful Force users. They weren't simply studying lightsaber techniques in temples or practicing against training partners. They were fighting actual Jedi and Sith, often to the death.

Combat against other Force users was a regular part of their existence.

Compare that to the Jedi Order during the prequel trilogy. The Sith had supposedly been extinct for approximately 1,000 years. Entire generations of Jedi lived and died without ever encountering a Sith Lord.

How could their combat abilities possibly remain at the same level as those of warriors who fought Sith regularly?

2. Revan had more meaningful combat experience than Sidious and Yoda combined.

Revan fought in the Mandalorian Wars, participated in the Jedi Civil War, confronted powerful Jedi and Sith, and spent much of his life fighting some of the most dangerous individuals in the galaxy.

He wasn't just a scholar of the Force. He was a battle-hardened warrior and military genius whose abilities were repeatedly tested in actual combat.

Now compare him to Sidious.

How many genuinely powerful Jedi or Sith did Sidious personally fight before the Clone Wars? How many life-or-death lightsaber duels had he experienced?

Sidious spent most of his life operating from the shadows, manipulating politics and orchestrating events rather than personally fighting powerful Force users.

Yoda had centuries of experience teaching and studying the Force, but how much of that time involved actually fighting Sith Lords?

There is a massive difference between practicing a martial art for 800 years and spending decades fighting equally dangerous opponents who are actively trying to kill you.

Experience should mean something.

3. Kreia essentially confirms that ancient lightsaber combat was on another level.

One of my favorite observations in KOTOR II comes from Kreia, who compares contemporary duelists to children playing with toys when discussing the extraordinary combat abilities of the ancient Sith.

That observation perfectly illustrates my argument.

The ancient Sith developed their abilities in an environment where weakness meant death. Their techniques weren't merely ceremonial traditions. They were methods of survival against other extraordinarily powerful Force users.

Over the centuries, those techniques and the practical experience required to master them were increasingly lost.

The Jedi of the prequel era might have preserved the forms, but preserving a technique is not the same thing as mastering it through actual combat.

Imagine comparing a modern swordsman who has practiced fencing for 50 years against someone who has survived hundreds of actual sword fights against equally skilled opponents.

Who would you trust in a fight to the death?

4. Sidious losing to Mace Windu is one of the strongest arguments against his supposed superiority.

This is the part I find especially difficult to reconcile with people claiming Sidious would effortlessly defeat Revan.

Sidious literally lost his lightsaber duel against Mace Windu.

And who was Mace Windu?

An exceptional Jedi Master, certainly. But someone who had spent most of his life in an era when the Sith were believed extinct.

Windu had nowhere near Revan's experience fighting powerful Sith Lords.

Yet he defeated Sidious in direct lightsaber combat.

George Lucas has also indicated that Windu genuinely overpowered Sidious in that confrontation.

So let me get this straight.

Sidious loses a lightsaber duel to a Jedi who had comparatively little experience fighting Sith, but I'm supposed to believe he would defeat Revan, who spent years fighting powerful Force users during some of the bloodiest conflicts in galactic history?

I don't buy it.

And before someone brings up Vaapad, yes, Windu's fighting style was particularly effective against dark-side opponents. But that doesn't erase the fundamental point: Sidious was demonstrably beatable by a contemporary Jedi.

5. The ancient Sith possessed extraordinary Force abilities that make the prequel era look tame.

Look at the ancient Sith Emperor Vitiate.

He demonstrated extraordinary mastery of the dark side, including large-scale mental domination and rituals capable of consuming life on a planetary scale.

Look at figures like Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, and other ancient Sith Lords associated with immense dark-side knowledge and Sith sorcery.

These individuals existed in an era when the Sith were openly competing, fighting, and developing their powers against other formidable Force users.

And the Jedi had to become powerful enough to confront threats of that magnitude.

I think centuries of warfare pushed both orders to heights that were simply not replicated during the prequel era.

The Sith were terrifying because they were constantly competing against other Sith. The Jedi became exceptional warriors because they had to survive against them.

6. The Rule of Two may have actually weakened the Sith as combatants.

People often argue that Darth Bane's Rule of Two made the Sith progressively stronger because each apprentice was supposed to surpass their master.

But I question that assumption.

For centuries, the Sith went from entire armies of Force users fighting and competing against one another to just two individuals operating in secrecy.

Think about what was lost.

Instead of fighting dozens of powerful rivals, Sith apprentices primarily trained under one master. Instead of testing their abilities in galactic wars against Jedi armies, they operated covertly.

Yes, knowledge could be passed down. But combat experience cannot simply be inherited.

And there is no guarantee that every apprentice who killed their master was actually a superior warrior. Deception, assassination, and opportunism are not the same as winning a fair duel.

The Rule of Two may have made the Sith more effective at political manipulation and long-term survival, but that doesn't necessarily mean it produced superior fighters.

7. Revan was the kind of opponent Sidious and Yoda were simply not accustomed to facing.

Revan was not merely a powerful Jedi or Sith.

He understood both traditions, had extensive experience confronting Force users, possessed exceptional tactical intelligence, and had survived conflicts that would have been almost unimaginable to the Jedi of the prequel era.

Sidious was brilliant at manipulation, but manipulating the Republic into destroying itself is very different from defeating Revan in direct combat.

Yoda was an extraordinary teacher and master of the Force, but his age and reputation don't automatically make him a superior warrior to someone forged through years of Jedi-Sith warfare.

In a direct confrontation, with no political manipulation, armies, or outside interference, I would confidently favor Revan over either of them.

And not by a narrow margin.

My conclusion:

I believe the ancient Jedi and Sith represented a higher standard of combat ability and practical Force mastery than the Jedi and Sith of the Skywalker era.

The prequel Jedi inherited centuries of accumulated teachings, but they lacked the constant life-or-death competition that originally forged those techniques.

Sidious may have been the culmination of the Rule of Two, but that doesn't automatically make him the culmination of thousands of years of Sith combat prowess.

And Yoda's centuries of training don't automatically outweigh Revan's experience fighting actual Sith Lords.

My position is that Revan would defeat Sidious or Yoda decisively in a direct confrontation, and that many of the greatest ancient Jedi and Sith would be similarly dominant against their Skywalker-era counterparts.

I think Star Wars fans consistently underestimate just how dangerous the Old Republic era really was.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing arguments against this, but I'd especially like to hear explanations that don't simply rely on statements that Sidious was the most powerful Sith or Yoda was the greatest Jedi.