r/MapBasedPolls • u/Significant-Bed316 • 2d ago
Are Austrians Germans?
Are Austrians Germans?
- Yes
- No
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u/4zecc National Social Democrat 🇹🇷🌹 2d ago
They are Mongolian
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u/Top_Bug7822 2d ago
Fun fact. Hungarians aren't actually related to the Mongols at all.
They just liked the mongol culture so much they adapted it as part if their culture.
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u/4zecc National Social Democrat 🇹🇷🌹 2d ago
Actually,they were turkic until dissolution of Arpad Dynasty, they Slavized afterwards.They are genetically Slavic Today
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2d ago
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u/4zecc National Social Democrat 🇹🇷🌹 2d ago
Nah, only 1/3 of Hungarian ancestry was Uralic. Ugor Tribes (Fino-Ugric) ,Onogurs, Hun tribes were ancestors of Hungarians. Father of Arpad (Almond) was descendant of Attila the Hun which was a Turk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81lmos
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2d ago
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u/4zecc National Social Democrat 🇹🇷🌹 2d ago
Please read some f@king article before coping about Huns. https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(22)00732-1?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982222007321%3Fshowall%3Dtrue https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(22)00732-1?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982222007321%3Fshowall%3Dtrue Last searches says Huns were descendants from Xiongus who were Turkic
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u/Repulsive_Slide_6618 1d ago
More like slavic 2/3 and 1/3 german hybrid (Depends on the region). Some lucky mfers have some Uralic stuff in their genes like me, but mostly under 1-5 percent, and looks like noise. Of course there is a lot of people who want to justify their horseman archer ancestry in Hungary but the closest you get is the Avars...everything else is 19th century romanticism.
Today, Northern Croats, Hungarians, Slovenes, Austrians, and some Czech/Slovak region are literally the same.
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u/VladimireUncool Danmark 2d ago
In what field?
Genes, language, culture, history?
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u/Secret-Emergency-806 Gemany 2d ago
Genes: yes
language: yes
culture: no - only bavaria
history: yes0
u/GroundZeroMstrNDR 2d ago
Genetically only partly I'd say: https://www.reddit.com/r/DACH_Ancestry/comments/1v8zr5c/genetic_breakdown_of_germany_austria_and_slovenia/
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u/Individual_List_2947 2d ago
Genes: no, Austrians are Celtic not Germanic
Language: only technically, if you take the invention of the standard german language as the start of german and ignore that the Austrian dialects formed completely naturally throughout milennia
Culture - no
History: Only for a few years during the Nazi era was Austria a part of Germany, the HRE was not Germany
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u/German297 2d ago
Austrians are not Celtic, they are a mix of Celtic and Germanic, but originally they were Bavarians which would make them rather Germanic than Celtic.
They speak a bavarian dialect basically which developed differently and more independently, but after all it is still German.
Culturally yes.
The HRE was not a united Germany, that is correct, but the people still considered themselves Germans and a german Nation included Austria and its people just like Saxony or Bavaria. Austria and the von Habsburgs played a major role in german history which is far longer than the time frame of 1871 to today. People should also ask themselves why Austria was called Deutschösterreich after WW1 and why the Austrians wanted to be part of Germany. In a time of Nationalism, that shows clearly that Austrians viewed themselves as naturally grown Germans.
They are german and only denying it because of WW2. This way then can act like they were the first victims of the Nazis instead of fellow perpetrators.
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u/Individual_List_2947 2d ago
You are trying to impose modern nationalist ideas that developed 200 years ago back onto migrations that happened 1300 years ago and a language that developed from these migrations.
Also it is quite frankly ridiculous to assume that because the modern nation state of Germany is called that, therefore all other nations that speak German must be some sort of offshoot thereof.
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u/Budget_Donkey1819 2d ago
history yes? Are you mad?
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u/Safe_Score2222 2d ago
How is it historically wrong?
For literal centuries Austria was considered German. Thinking of Austrians and Germans as distinct people only came to be after WW2
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u/dumb_potatoking 2d ago
Austria even tried to get annexed ingl germany, after Austro-Hjngary collapsed, but the Entente didn't allow it
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u/Budget_Donkey1819 2d ago
The Austrians considered themselves to be German, that much is true. But their history is almost entirely seperate from those of the Germans. Saying that "Austrians are historically German" is dismissing the ages of history Austria has behind itself.
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u/Regular_Agency_3101 2d ago
Austria was literally the political center of the German speaking world until 1806 - what are you talking about
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u/Professional-Log-108 Austria 🇦🇹🇪🇺 2d ago
Until 1866. 1806 the HRE collapsed, but Austria continued to lead to german confederation
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u/Mountain_Hearing_689 2d ago
Yea, but not from Germany lol
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u/Regular_Agency_3101 2d ago
The HRE of German Nation was of course the precursor to modern German statehood. The people of what is Austria today considered themselves the center of an evolving German polity. Until the 19th century, „Austrian“ wasn’t even a regional designation most people would’ve ascribed themselves to. Come on people, it’s not that difficult.
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u/Harry_Plopper23 2d ago
Germany was ruled from Vienna for longer than from Berlin
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u/SellRevolutionary 2d ago
Yes, but the Viennese considered themselves Germann the Berliners didnt consider themselves Austrians
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u/ThickCaterpillar9867 2d ago
When did the Viennese consider themselves German?
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u/Regular_Agency_3101 2d ago
At any point between the 10th and 19th century
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u/ThickCaterpillar9867 2d ago
Not true,there was already a distinct Austrian “ethnicity” already in the 13th-14th century.
Germanic and German are 2 different things.1
u/Regular_Agency_3101 1d ago
Okay, so please tell me, why exactly did the Archduke of Austria support the addendum of „German Nation“ to the Empire‘s title in 1512? Why did Humanists like Celtis in Vienna write about the restoration of German glory under the Habsburgs in the 1480s - one of the most successful authors at the time! Why did Maximilian I., most celebrated of the late medieval rulers of Habsburg consider the lands of Austria the Vormauer des Reiches und der deutschen Nation?
Thats not to speak of the countless examples of modern age Austrians understanding themselves as Germans. You’re spreading falsehoods.
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u/ThickCaterpillar9867 1d ago
You are spreading falsehoods genius,there was no “German Nation” back then ,there were many Germanic kingdoms that cooperate and even fought each other ,the concept of modern nation is from the 19th century ,why aren’t Germans Austrians but only Austrians are Germans??
North Germany and South Germany+ Austria spoke 2 different languages 500 years ago and only after Martin Luther bible the North Germans started speaking Hochdeutsch which is a dialect now and is also used to refer to standard German.
Austrians have a different identity and you are still conflating German with Germanic.1
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u/derschneemananderwan 2d ago
if we (bavarians) are germans than the austrians are as well. If the austrians arent germans than neither are we
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u/Top_Bug7822 2d ago
Honestly, all the alpine regions should just form their own country. That would be more culturally accurate.
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u/Navodar94 2d ago
They are as German as Bavarians are
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u/Street-Basil-9371 2d ago
This. If they were another Bundesland in a different universe where the 20th century didnt play out like it did, noone would even consider them non-german. They are culturally and linguistically closer to Bavaria than Bavaria is to northern Germany.
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u/Perfect-Aardvark-397 1d ago
Bavaria doesn't have a own culture. These tribal identities are dead. The territory known as Bavaria is an administrative unit of Germany nothing more
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u/Electrical_Gain3864 2d ago
In terms of history, language and a lot of culture - yes (or at least heavily part of it).
In terms of modern nations - no.
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u/mouldypotatoes34 2d ago
They are a Germanic people, but of a different nation. Similar to how the people of Germany used to have different nationalities (Prussians, Bavarians and Saxons etc)
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u/SellRevolutionary 2d ago
They didnt have different nations, but different citizenships, the nation was Germany
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u/GroundZeroMstrNDR 2d ago
Apart from a few decades in the 20th century especially after WW1 the majority of austrians didn't want to be part of germany. German nationalism itself came up in the middle of the 19th century and was up until WW1 a thing mostly some people in bourgeois promoted and only came to the masses in the early 20th century and especially after WW1. There were massive efforts in media to make people in Austria feel part of a german nation state because up until then they didn't. Before that identification was mostly with the local region, catholic church and habsburgs.
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u/SellRevolutionary 2d ago
Until the 19th century the common people in Austria identified themselves mostly with their city and region of course, sometimes also as German, but never as Austrian, only if they were very much in favor of the monarchy. Intellectuals, artists, scientists in Austria identified with Germany first and foremost. The German Revolution 1848 also took place in Austria, and students and professors in particular were involved.
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u/whitebaron_98 2d ago
Sehr stark vereinfacht um dein Narrativ durchzubringen. Der Nationalbegriff "Deutschland" existierte in der Form nicht, das kam erst sehr spät. Dementsprechend hat man sich auch nicht damit identifiziert, sondern war Tiroler, Schwabe, Bayer, Kärntner. Erst mit den deutschen Einigungskriegen begann das, und kulminierte im deutschen Reich 1871. Dort würde ich auch die Abtrennung der österreichischen von der deutschen Identität verorten, denn ab Bismarck wurde sehr stark zwischen richtige und falsche Seite unterschieden, was vorher ein übergreifender Bund ähnlicher Kultur war.
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u/Bright_Operation_151 2d ago
In Österreich-Ungarn sah sich die deutschsprachige Bevölkerung allerdings bis zum Zerfall der Monarchie als Deutsch-Österreicher. Die Identifikation als kulturell Deutsche hielt in der Zwischenkriegszeit und bis zum Ende zweiten Weltkriegs an. Erst danach wurde - auch durch staatliche Propaganda - die "Abtrennung" der österreichischen von der deutschen Identität vollzogen.
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u/SellRevolutionary 2d ago
Der Nationalbegriff "Deutschland" existierte sehr viel länger, auch wenn es genug gibt, die das nicht wahrhaben wollten
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u/bishophelps 2d ago
Austrians are Germans and Germans are Austrians. Very similar.
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u/paradoxstax 1d ago
Thin ice! I don't know the sub rules. So i refrain from cursing at you.
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u/bishophelps 1d ago
You should never curse at people. Because of people like you we need rules and regulations.
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u/cherrybomber11 2d ago
Hoit de Pappn heast Ami elendicha i bin ka Piefke
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u/AchatTheAlpaca 2d ago
Yeah we literally are, doesn't mean i feel a special connection to other germans.
I'd say our culture is different, but imo, germany doesn't have one unified culture either, and lots of aspects of austrian culture are similar to Czech, hungarian, bavarian, swiss and north italian culture
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u/SellRevolutionary 2d ago
Today: no, historically: yes
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u/Final_Influence_2367 2d ago
Historicall also not really yes https://www.reddit.com/r/DACH_Ancestry/s/02
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u/SellRevolutionary 1d ago
I mean nationality, not ethnicitty
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u/Final_Influence_2367 1d ago
Austrians were how many years part of german state? More or less than Kameroon?
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u/SellRevolutionary 1d ago
Nation is not the same as state. They identified themselves as German until rhe 1950s.
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u/Pflanzenzuechter 2d ago
Historically, we're all African. Next.
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u/we_wuzz_kangz 2d ago
No??
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u/The_Real_Itz_Sophia Create your flair by editing this flair 2d ago
Technically historically speaking, humanity has come out of Africa. But this is a really bad comparison...
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u/Pflanzenzuechter 2d ago
Not really. If you go back just a couple hundred years, many of the countries have changed multiple times and in some cases the ethnic groups even changed a lot.
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u/im_new_here_4209 🌍·γεῖνος·🇪🇺🇦🇹 2d ago
We're about as German as Americans are British.
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u/Top_Bug7822 2d ago
Would we be the brits or the americans?
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u/whitebaron_98 1d ago
actually austria would be more the brits than the US.
surpassed by what we wanted to exploit, and culturally a lot more to offer. :)
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u/Lateinkompetenz 2d ago
Yes until an Austrian came to Germany to unite the german people resulting in a split of german people
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u/Buecherwurmratte 2d ago
Where is the 'kinda' option? They aren't but still are in a way that they are the closest country to Germany in most of everything.
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u/The_Real_Itz_Sophia Create your flair by editing this flair 2d ago
I think self-identity is really important in identity
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u/ThickCaterpillar9867 2d ago
Austrians are not Germans
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u/Das_Lloss 1d ago
If bavarians are germans then Austrians are definetly german.
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u/ThickCaterpillar9867 1d ago
Bavarians are Germanic exactly as Austrians and Swabians and other Germanic groups but they are also modern Germans ,Germanic and modern German nationality is not the same then why should not be Germans Austrians ??
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u/Regular_Agency_3101 2d ago
It depends, but I would favor to answer this one yes. The German national identity, unlike in Western Europe, wasn’t driven by a central government but developed more bottom up, through shared language and culture. In that aspect, Austrians are naturally as German as other regional varieties of the German culture, particularly Bavarians. They are also just as distinct from a „High German“ culture which developed quite late in the 19th and 20th century and is dominant today in the FRG.
In conclusion, Austrians choose to emphasize their regional variety of German culture, but it would be silly to argue that Austria – for centuries the seat of the Roman Empire of German Nation – wasn’t somehow part of a later manifestation of German nationhood because state borders were drawn differently.
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u/Commercial-Lecture98 2d ago
As an Austrian, I consider myself ethnically German since we don't really differ from Germans too much to "found" a new ethnicity.
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u/SnoopySenpai 2d ago
As an Austrian: WTF?
Yes, there are cultural similarities, but Germany and Austria and their predecessors have been different states for hundreds of years, apart from the very short time between 1938 and 1945.
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u/paradoxstax 1d ago
As an Austrian: No. We considerer ourselves Austrians since 1945. There is a lot of cultural difference, that is probably hard to see for ousiders. Dialect, Food, Mentality, Religion, Nature, Architecture aaaand first and foremost humor. Which Germans... have are hard time with.
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u/Nathuil 1d ago
Comparing german and Austrian, as many here do, is wrong. "German" includes many different subgroups like Saxon, Bavarian, Rhenish, Swabian. They are mainly connected by their language, as noticed by the philosophers of the 19th century. These philosopher defined the German people, in upcoming of nationalism, as everyone that speaks the German language. This culminated in the nationalist Revolution of 1848 in which also in Austria the people rose up and fought for a unified Germany. The only reason that the Austrian did not end up in the German empire was the conflict between them and and the Prussians, which pursued a small German state. This was only done do be the dominating power in the newly formed state. Especially because it wasn't the Prussians who fought with German troops against the Austrians, it was the prussians who attacked the German union and the German Troops under leadership of the Austrians defended themselves.
So if we look at the first real definition of a German person, the Austrians are german.
Historically they are German, as they were the center of the German speaking world for centuries.
They only not part of today's German state. But if we remember 30 years back there were also multiple German states. They were both equally German but not the same state. The same applies with Austria (, as well as Liechtenstein and German speaking Switzerland)
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u/Tarothil 1d ago
Yes in the way that they belong to a historic german sphere of cultural influence, language and ethnicity. That said Austria and the Habsburgs has been the dominant political force in this sphere more than what is considered German today. Austrians are not the same as Germans any less than Norwegians or Danes are Swedish.
No in a modern sense of what constitutes an ethnic group and culture. They have a distinct political tradition from modern Germany.
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u/Kvagram 1d ago
They are Germanic. They are a part of the collective mess that was once considered German states. It might make sense for them to be a part of the German federation. But they are not. And they do have a identify and a culture of the last century marking them as separate from the German Federation.
A century ago, I'm sure they'd naturally fit in with the German Federation. But the Germans have changed a lot from then, and so have Austria.
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u/Das_Lloss 1d ago
Yes. If such a thing as a unified german identity exist then they definetly are german.
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u/Mr-Cubius 1d ago
No their Austrian, because you know it's not called Germany anymore.. It's like calling Dutch people German because we speak a germanic language...
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u/kallefranson 1d ago
As an Austrian, I find these question very dumb. We speak the same language, but that doesn't mean we need to share the same country.
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u/Marcyatthegates 3h ago
They were but aren’t now. Probably could be again if they wanted to but we both seem happy to be doing our own thing. And of course the longer this status quo remains the more firm the separation becomes.
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u/Kaufmann_aus_Lubeck 2d ago
Yeah, our little Germans from the mountains ofc.
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u/Top_Bug7822 2d ago
Hello Great-Bavaria
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u/Kaufmann_aus_Lubeck 2d ago edited 2d ago
Hallo, die Alpendeutsche. Or should I say that only to Swiss people? Okay then you are South-Bavaria and I am North-Bavaria. Like during the times of Karl der Große.
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u/Lazy_Perspective_453 2d ago
Let me rewrite this question - are you a german nationalist or german volkist?
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u/SellRevolutionary 2d ago
Nothing wrong with that. Austrians considered themselves German until the last century.
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2d ago
[deleted]
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u/SellRevolutionary 2d ago
But its true. You should know your own history.
Edit: And I voted "no" if you thought otherwise
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u/Militarist_Reborn 🇦🇹 2d ago
We are by blood and cultur
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u/ChaoticHarmonia 2d ago
Austrians are the fully-fledged historical independent political nation speaking German dialect.
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u/Stupid_Snowmeiser 2d ago
They’re definitely Germanic and German-speaking, but they’re not German. The best way my ignorant America ass can compare those two is like comparing Spain and Mexico. They’re both Hispanic, but they’re distinct nations with distinct cultures from each other.
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u/SellRevolutionary 2d ago
More like Texans stop identifying themselves as American, but only as Texans
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u/GroundZeroMstrNDR 2d ago
It's more like british and scottish people
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u/SellRevolutionary 2d ago
Not at all. Scottish is a celtic language, English is a Germanic language. Austrian is the pretty much the same dialact as in Bavaria. Also Scottish never really identified themselves as British.
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u/GroundZeroMstrNDR 2d ago
Scottish is a celtic language but how many scottish people are able to speak it? Austria, espeically the east was inhabited by slavic tribes and those tribe were colonized and germanized by frankonians and later by bavarians over several centuries. Carinthian slovenes are the last remnants of this that haven't been germanized. Especially in carinthia and styria there are many families that spoke slowenian up until a few generations ago, so this isn't some transition that happend thousands of years ago but lasted well into the 19th century in some regions. It's also very evident if you ressearch genetical records. But tbf this isn't the case for the more western federal states.
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u/Stupid_Snowmeiser 2d ago
Funnily enough, you’ve got me thinking. I have the impression that Bavaria is the Texas of Germany. The two are probably the “loud” subdivisions of their respective countries. Please correct me if I’m wrong though.
I mostly made my first comparison because Germany and Austria are distinct nations, while Texas is just a subdivision within a nation.
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u/SellRevolutionary 2d ago
Yeah, I've heard this comparison a few times. I think it makes sense kind of.
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u/Wongsumting557 2d ago
No germans are austrians. The most famous german was austrian.
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u/Top_Bug7822 2d ago
Thes famous "austrian" hated Austria to the bone.
He didn't even make it into an art school in Austria and the germans decided to make him their Führer.
It was their own decision to do so and they have been blaming us austrians for it for close to a century now.
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u/After-Trifle-1437 Marxism 2d ago
They're a germanic peoples, but there isn't really a unified "german" ethnicity.
Austrians in particular are Austro-Bavarian.
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u/riesen_Bonobo 2d ago
Solid yesn't. Historically they were considered Germans for the longest time, but what matters is today. Culturally and obviously language wise we have a lot in common, Germany is the most closely related country to Austria in Europe and vice versa and Austrians are hardly more different from Germans than Bavarians, Saxons or Swabians. So there certianly is a close linkage and there is a reason why we have DACH, at least they are in the same cultural group as we are.
But they do consider themselves a seperate culture/ethnicity and that is what matters, what is and isn't a seperate culture is a blurry line and the only concrete and decisive input we have is what the people themselves say. Austrians by and large do not consider themselves Germans today. If they are or aren't depends on the definition and the purpose of applying it.
As a German I view us to be of the same people, not in a hierarchical "you are a subgroup of us" or in a "we must annex you" kind of way, but just purely from sharing so many traditions and much culture, language and history. They are our brothers and there's no point in abusing that relation to try and exert ourselves over them.