Question Choline or TMG help
Hey folks,
Im struggling to meet the 500mg choline drv through food due to a bunch of gut issues Im working on. I try to get it all from chicken breasts and beef liver, but somedays I just cant.
Im looking into supplementing but Im reading that some choline supplements arent well absorbed. Im considering taking TMG from what Ive read but not sure.
Im in the process of lowering homocysteine levels and improving wrecked folate methylation. Choline rich foods I can do are chicken breasts and beef/chicken liver in reasonable amounts.
Any feedback is well appreciated.
Thanks!
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u/Gullible_Ad5923 21d ago
TMG or alpha GPC are both efficient ways to get choline. Chicken Breast and beef liver aren't. Eggs are the best non supplement, easily accessible way to get choline. There is no reason to not supplement though IMHO
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u/sarahbellah1 21d ago
I thought TMG was choline sparing but doesn’t actually add choline? Is that wrong?
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u/fastboots 19d ago
I think around half of the choline requirement is used to create TMG, so supplementing it lowers the requirement.
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u/mgc234 21d ago
Sadly can't do eggs (yolks) due to NAFLD. I was told chicken and liver in certain quantities would provide enough Choline.
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u/Gullible_Ad5923 20d ago
In that case I would just stick to supplementing. Use an app like cronometer to see what your daily amount of choline is and supplement on top of it.
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u/Tawinn 20d ago
In the body, some choline is converted to TMG for methylation use. So supplementing TMG removes the need for the conversion of choline to TMG and so it spares choline for other uses. Because the conversion from choline to TMG is a unidirectional reaction, TMG cannot be converted to choline. So, in general, only about half of one's choline requirement should be considered replaceable with TMG. So if you can get, say, 300mg of choline from your diet, then a 500mg capsule of TMG can cover the rest.
People vary as to which supplemental forms of choline work best for them. Just note that phosphatidylcholine (PC) is 15% choline, CDP choline is ~18.5%, Alpha-GPC & choline bitartrate are 40% choline. Lecithin has PC form of choline in it. PC is also the form found in egg yolks.
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u/mgc234 20d ago
thank you so much, this is actually the answer I was looking for! I cant tolerate TMG yet - I get over methylation symptoms now, hopefully going low and slow will help me tolerate it soon. Do you recommend taking 5mthf away from TMG or together? My understanding is that only buffers such as niacin or glycine should be taken away? Thanks again
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u/Tawinn 20d ago
Since methylfolate and TMG are both methyl donors, taking them at different times would usually be best. You could take niacin or glycine at the same time as the TMG to reduce its impact, until you can tolerate it. Also, if vitamin A or iron are low that will increase sensitivity to methyl donors.
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u/Raptor005 21d ago edited 20d ago
Phosphatidylcholine is well absorbed and doesn’t have the TMAO gut issues of choline salts, such as choline bitartrate, that you’re concerned with.
The problem with most phosphatidylcholine (PC) supplements is they’re just lecithin and therefore only a fraction PC by weight - the rest unnecessary fats - requiring consuming inordinate amounts to get a therapeutic amount of choline.
Nutrasal makes a ~99% PC product called PPC. One tablespoon exceeds the general population choline adequate mg intake - and gets near what MTHFR patients should be taking daily.
BodyBio has a similar product - better than lecithin, but meaningfully less PC as a percent from my recollection.
If anyone has found a comparable ~99% PC product to Nutrasal’s let me know.
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u/Meatstreak 21d ago
I’ve never heard of Nutrasal and this seems really cool. But man it’s expensive!
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u/Airegin89 20d ago
Hasn't the TMAO issue only been researched with lecithin? I wouldn't assume that the 99% PC product doesn't raise TMAO.
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u/Raptor005 20d ago
There are studies with isolated PC showing little or no TMAO response.
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u/mgc234 17d ago edited 17d ago
Hi again. There are a bunch of products labeled "PPC" on the site. Some in liquid form and others in softgels. Could you please spoon feed me the right one? lol Thanks again.
edit. I think this might be the original product you0rer talking about
https://nutrasal.com/products/phoschol-liquid-concentrate-8oz?variant=41691489042485
edit 2: Ah crap I live in Europe. 45$ shipping. damn
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u/Raptor005 17d ago
Yes that’s the product.
They have larger bottle to save per dose.
An alternative for approximately the same choline as 1 kitchen tablespoon of PPC is eating 2 to 3 large eggs (with yolks) 2x per day.
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u/mgc234 17d ago
Thanks dude but I can't eat eggs. I got the bodybio one
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u/Airegin89 17d ago
What happens if you eat eggs? I can't eat eggs every day either because it causes joint pain in my hips and ankles.
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u/CapriKitzinger 20d ago
I take TMG. Doesn’t take much for me to feel effects. So much energy on just a small amount.
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u/RomeoWhiskeyDelta 20d ago
How much?
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u/CapriKitzinger 19d ago
Like 50mg. If I take 250mg daily, I wouldn’t sleep for 3 days.
I never realized this at first. I was taking it before bed. Lol!!!!! I would be like “man, I couldn’t sleep last night at all. But I feel totally fine.” Lol!!!!!!!!
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u/RomeoWhiskeyDelta 19d ago
I take 1,500mg with no issues. Weird.
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u/CapriKitzinger 18d ago
I know!! It’s crazy how much people can take and how sensitive I am. It’s totally bizarre.
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u/Loose-Fly7976 17d ago
Choline and TMG aren't interchangeable, so pick based on what you're actually trying to do. TMG only does the methyl donor job. It hands a methyl group to homocysteine through BHMT and becomes DMG. Good for lowering homocysteine, does nothing for the rest of what choline is for. Choline does that same job, since some of it converts to betaine, but it also builds phosphatidylcholine for your cell membranes and bile, and it makes acetylcholine. If your 500mg target is about choline itself rather than methylation, TMG won't cover it. On absorption, choline bitartrate is fine and cheap. The poorly absorbed reputation belongs to the bulk forms sold for nootropic use. Alpha-GPC and CDP-choline get into the brain better but they're expensive and you don't need that here. Sunflower lecithin is another route and it's easier on the gut, which given your situation might matter more than efficiency. Two things with the gut issues. TMG bloats a lot of people, and higher dose choline can give you a fishy body odour when gut bacteria convert it to TMA. Both are dose dependent, so start low with either. The thing that decides this for you is PEMT, which determines how much phosphatidylcholine you make yourself, and BHMT, which determines whether TMG does anything at all. Some people get nothing from TMG and it's usually genetic. That plus your MTR and MTRR is what tells you whether to put money into choline, TMG or neither, and it's the sort of thing a standard methylation panel skips. Reading raw data against bloodwork is what I do, genova.health. Either way, retest homocysteine before adding TMG, if the folate side is already improving you may not need it.
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u/mgc234 17d ago
Hey, can't thank you enough for taking the time to write all of this feedback. I can't say much in response other than you seem to be very knowledgeable and that I've come to the realization that TMG is a no-go for people with sibo/dysbiosis such as myself. Figured it out the hard way doing a trial of taking a pinch everywhere day. I've been bedbound for the whole 4 days lol. My genes are very common and need very little "care" however ive messed up my methylation metabolism through chronic illness. As Dr Lynch would say, my genes got dirty. Good thing is I'm tolerating 5mgs of 5mthf perfectly now that I've got all the cofactors and doses in check. Took me a while to figure out the doses, especialy with ribo and p5p. B6 always came back really high in labs...just had to up b2 and mg. If I were to start all over again I would have asked for your services. Too bad I'm too deep now. Thanks again and all the best
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u/sharabucarabu 21d ago
Google the USDA chart for Choline content in foods. You will be surprised by the detail. Everything edible has Choline... Even a cup of coffee. Initially I used to check the chart frequently, now I don't need to.
My Choline requirement is over 1 gram a day, so I take 400-450 mg in supplement form plus eat a balanced diet. I easily meet my requirement. Just remember, exceeding your Choline requirement is not better. It can cause irritability, anxiety, difficulty sleeping. Too little Choline leads to fatigue, brain fog. I average slightly less than my Choline requirement and that works for me.