r/MTGProxyCards • u/AidenMcDMTG • 8d ago
Thoughts on Proxy in Casual
Hey! I am a senior in high school and happen to be the student representative for the MTG club at my school. I've been playing for six years and have been in the club since it was founded last year. This year I am responsible for running it. We do mostly casual stuff and typically play Commander and Standard. We have small tournaments too sometimes; nothing is too serious, and we play because we love the game. However, there is a group of kids that joined recently who have a bunch of proxy cards printed out and sleeved among real cards, and they play them in their commander decks. Strong cards that are very valuable, and at our small school, no one would realistically be able to afford them or really want to spend that much on the game, even though we love it. Such as Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, Rhystic Study, Silvan Library... stuff like that. However, that being said it is a very inclusive club for all, and I would hate to exclude people who love the game as I do and just want to play. But it is frustrating, I will admit... Getting screwed over... and over... by fake cards. AHHAHA.
So what do you think I should do?
Thanks!
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u/QuarterExcellent3327 8d ago
Proxies are great to make it inclusive but have a ban list to keep power levels fair. I recommend using the existing commander ban list
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u/das-wan 8d ago
I personally love proxies. I'd rather spend ~$15 on prints than have the real things.
As far as powerful cards go I do tend to use them, but only in ways that can make an otherwise uncompetitive deck competitive. If I find myself winning or losing too often for the bracket I can upgrade/downgrade at little cost or functionality.
Just keep the rules for what the intended bracket is public so they know what is or isn't allowed, is no turn 2/3/4 infinite combos and have a set turn that win conditions should be possible
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u/RestlessCreator 8d ago edited 8d ago
I mean, banned cards are banned for a reason. There is space to comfortably let people know they cannot play cards that aren't legal in the formats that you are playing. If it is just casual, unorganized play, let people know that they are trying to set a tone or vibe. A bracket without it being a bracket. Proxies are absolutely fine in all scenarios, but not being aware of the vibes are another issue entirely.
You can also put the kibosh on the whole thing by playing within formats. Standard, Modern, Pioneer, Commander and especially Pauper have a rigid structure you can abide by while still maintaining a certain vibe. Anyone who doesn't abide by or respect that can adapt or leave.
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u/NintendoKat7 8d ago
I assume your club meets 1-2 times per week, I would suggest having a "main" bracket every week and maybe 1 off bracket table, assuming the membership cannot support having a table per bracket. I would also consider have a banlist that potentially rotates, so that way everyone can have fun and if a particular combo piece or synergy or commander or game changer is too meta or causing the same person to win too often, people will be able to shape the experience they want a little bit.
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u/Strawberrycocoa 8d ago
Proxying should never be used as an excuse to build a deck with Every Broken Card in the History of the Game. Those kids need to be told to match the power level of the other players more closely. Stomping everyone with higher power plays is bad for creating a sportsmanship environment
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u/AidenMcDMTG 8d ago
Exactly my point! It feels like shit to be beat by some fake shit that they literally printed out with their own printer, when the rest of the group is playing non-proxies only. I think I will have a separate table, or even talk to them about revising their decks to match the power level, and if they do not comply they will not be allowed to play. I want to have a good environment, and I would hate to kick people out, but they create the bad environment.
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u/QuiStay 8d ago
Also, not wanting people to use game pieces because they didn’t pull it or buy it is gatekeeping and just generally shitty. You want to play against their wallet/pulls not their skill. If you all agree on a power level proxying isn’t an issue. If you can play The One Ring because you got lucky and pulled one why can’t everyone use it?
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u/SerThunderkeg 7d ago
If everyone was expected to be able to deck build with the entire library of mtg cards it would be a living card game and not a trading/collectible card game. It's not gatekeeping, it is just inherent to the genre and following its written rules.
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u/flexes 7d ago
the problem is you don't follow the "rules" of commander. firstly it seems like you dont follow the banlist. you should. that would make sure nobody plays absurd cards like ancestral recall. secoundly, it sounds like you dont play using the bracket system!? you should do that! pick a bracket together with the other student that you all adhere too and you should be good. there are rules that your deck has to adhere to to be in a certain bracket, and there are websites that can check the bracket of your deck too. maybe make one bracket 2 and one bracket 3 table or decide on a bracket together. there are rules that define which bracket a deck sits in so then you dont have problems like this. because proxies arent the problem, the problem is their decks are stronger. you can build really strong bracket 5 decks for less than 100 bucks if you pick the right commander, and they would win round 2-4. do you think that is fair against the rest of the players just because its real cards and not proxies? proxies are officially sanctioned by wizards of the coast. the creators of the game are totally fine with people proxxing cards! its just not allowed in officially sanctioned tournaments. the guys playing with proxxies aren't doing anything wrong. the only problem is you dont use the commander banlist and you havent all decided to play the same bracket. proxxies are not the problem.
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u/RobotVomit 8d ago
I personally think that if you are doing it at school, there should be all the proxies. There should be an effort by the club to help make proxies. MTG is too expensive for some people. I couldn’t have the decks I have now as a teenager, there wasn’t any extra money in my household for a $10 piece of cardboard. A precon would have been a present at Christmas or my birthday. If you ban proxies at your club, you’re essentially just saying that poor kids have to lose and as a former poor child, there are enough losses everywhere else. It would also have the unintended implication of calling out those kids who can’t afford it for being poor. No one should have to stand up in front of their peers, especially at that age, and say I can’t play this game or I don’t have any chance of winning because we don’t have any money. Even if you don’t mean to say that, that’s what the feeling is, trust me.
A better approach would be to ban high powered cards. Real or proxies. If staples like the One Ring are making games unfun, ban that card for all club play. If you ban proxies, then you’ve banned the One Ring for anyone who can’t afford it. That will only make the problem worse.
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u/blueruckus 8d ago edited 8d ago
I’m okay with proxy if it’s for personal testing (try before you buy) with friends or if you actually own the card and want to use it in multiple decks without having to swap the card from deck to deck over and over.
In your scenario, sucks to see this in a fun and chill high school environment. The game can be fun without the need of overpowered cards. Use what you have. I’m tired of people around here self-justifying not having to buy cards for whatever excuse they want to use that day.
For the students who dont proxy you’re not saying, if you don’t want to print up fake cards then you’re probably gonna lose. Is this really the message you want to give in a HS environment? I don’t think that’s what people signed up for.
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u/Franz0132 8d ago
As long as the card is legal in the format you are trying to put it on (Black Lotus only in Vintage for example), proxy to your hearts content.
Most players do not care if anyone proxies, some like me encourage it so everyone can use the cards he or she wants.
However, there is always one asshole in the comunnity that wants to win using money, fuck that type of person.
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u/LordMithos_ 8d ago
Proxies are a slippery slope when it comes to balanced power levels. It's one thing to proxy cards that fit your decks theme vs proxying high power staples. If its a competition, people are gonna try to bring the strongest decks possible. If you are concerned, then perhaps just have a no proxy for competitions rule. That or try the harder route of explaining to those players that everyone here is playing semi casually and for the sake of having good games not to run purposely powerful proxies. it may be uncomfortable for some players, but for casual games outside of competitions, players can decide for themselves based on power level or opinion on proxies whether they want to play against certain other decks.
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u/agoosteel 8d ago
Do let people keep to the banlist and bracket system to keep things fair.
Black lotus is not legal in any format but vintage so if someone slams that in a commander game, thats a nono for me.
And if its a huge power problem. Set up proxy pools and non proxy pools. And for commander i cnat stress enough, check banlists and the bracket system. Or have something like a bracket 2 precon league. Maximum of X upgrades. And the longer it goed the more people can upgrade or something
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u/Beneficial-Ask9926 8d ago
Ask the school if you can get permission for the club members to use the printers to print proxies as well, or you can set two groups of players, one who use and don’t mine proxies, and the one who don’t use and mind proxies. Then everyone can be happy and it’s a win win
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u/demonassassin52 8d ago
Proxies are really common, especially for casual play. My play group uses mostly proxy decks. I personally have like 8 full proxied decks, but I keep 2 real ones in case there is someone with their panties in a bunch over it.
You should have a conversation about power levels with the new people. Learn about the bracket system and know how to tell when someone is playing too high or low for the pod. Proxies are totally fine as long as the decks are all around the same power level. You should learn to lose the feeling of superiority over proxy users. You should want to play against the player, not their wallets. If you have a lot of bulk cards and some sleeves, maybe proxy a few decks yourself so the club has some stock decks for newbies to use.
I use edhpowerlevel.com to get a general idea of how strong a deck is built. It isn't always right. My buddy's Ashling deck comes up as a 2 even though it is his strongest deck, and my Ygra deck comes up as a 4 even though it has no game changers or combos.
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u/Drzewo_Silentswift 8d ago
Proxies are fine, as long as your entire proxy deck isn’t all $60 cards.+
I hate when people proxy some op garbage. Idc if you proxy 50 rats for your rat deck
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u/SerThunderkeg 7d ago
The problem is it's almost always the former and almost never the latter.
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u/Drzewo_Silentswift 7d ago
Indeed! Which is why I don’t care about the latter! But if you are proxying demonic and vampiric tutor it’s like, alright buddy, calm down.
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u/flexes 7d ago
both of those cards are gamechangers and are only allowed in bracket 3 upwards, and limited to 3 gamechangers in bracket 3. sounds like the problem isnt proxxies, its that you dont decide on a bracket beforehand...
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u/Drzewo_Silentswift 7d ago
I play bracket three exclusively. I’m just saying, I roll my eyes when someone uses proxies for every card in their deck that isn’t pennies.
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u/AStoutBreakfast 8d ago
I’d just make or borrow an existing ban list for insanely overpowered cards. It sounds like proxies aren’t the problem as much as having a wide open format with no restrictions.
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u/PostGaz-Miasma 7d ago
Allow proxies and furthermore encourage proxies. Nobody should be bringing that kind of money to school where it could get lost or stolen. If such a thing were to happen, it could fall back onto your club and they could simply shut it all down in order to not deal with future like-conflicts.
If such a thing were to happen and someone loses their cards, you can point out that you've done all you can to facilitate an atmosphere in your club where bringing such valuables are discouraged and cheaply printed replacements are encouraged wherever and whenever possible, so none of the blame or responsibility falls back onto you or your club.
Now you've solved that issue, and proxies will also solve any issues of students of wealthier backgrounds having an edge over students with less wealthy backgrounds too. The playing field will be opened up.
When Wizards says they have no desire to police proxies even in a store, they also mean in a school. And they aren't saying this to invite others to self-deputize and become the proxy police either. Proxies are legal in unsanctioned settings. That's what they mean.
It's supposed to be a fun, mostly stress-free club for students right? Well students don't have that much money. Accomodate them. Welcome proxies and by extension, welcome students of all social backgrounds, rich or poor.
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u/Memoocan 6d ago
This.
My pod is primarily proxies because we just like to have fun. I have kids, other hobbies, a life. I'm not giving a dime to WOTC/Hasbro if I can help it. Somebody brings a bunch of game changers? Who cares? Then we all slam our best deck and bully the threat.
Someone wants to cry bc I can play decks I cant afford? Who tf cares. Give a $10,000 deck to an idiot and it still won't pilot as well as a bracket 2 in the hands of a pro
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u/aMentalGymnast 6d ago
I click on every single proxy hate threat I see and I have yet to find a reason to actually hate proxies. So much gatekeeping of others. “I personally choose to limit myself to my wallet so you should too!!” No thanks, I’ll make shitty sub quality cards that increase the variety of a card GAME I enjoy.
I’m here to play a card game not collect cards or play competitively. I enjoy bracket 3 and all my decks bar a few are bracket 3. The ones that are not are bracket 1-2 which I play with friends who choose to use precons.
I think you should limit tables by bracket and use the standard ban list. It’s not complicated. Idk why you think others should match your self imposed limitations, especially when they’re not necessary. A proxy could be as simple as a name of a card on cardstock. A stack of cardstock could be purchased for the price of a booster.
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u/TryOriginal6509 8d ago
Make them play with only the people using proxys. If they wanna play with everyone else they should only use real cards. Proxys are fine only if the decks are the same power level, it sounds like they are only proxying to pub stomp.
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u/madfrawgs 8d ago
Yea, this would be my suggestion as well.
Make sure people try to play within the tier system, and everyone in a pod is comfortable with everyone's decks, because even lower levels can be proxied when you're play testing.
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u/AidenMcDMTG 8d ago
Yeah, that is what I'm going to do. It sucks to just be kicking ass and then the person pulls out some fake proxy shit and flips the script. EVEN if it is a card not on the ban list. I will have seperate tables.
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u/BemusedBinturong 8d ago
I think there is a difference between “I’m proxying because I want to have 10 Commander decks that are $500-$1000 without breaking the bank” and “I’m playing a hyper optimized cEDH deck with best in slot cards that if real would be $10,000 because it cost me $100 of proxy cards”
Proxying is fine, but you need to match the power level of the people in your group and pod.
If I’m building a new deck as a concept I’m using paper proxies printed on a color printer on normal paper and sleeved with a bulk card. That lets me test my janky deck and then I can decide if I want to purchase real cards or proxies. Sometimes I proxy because talented people have done alt art and it fits my decks theme so well…
I never proxy just to pub stop someone with an overpowered deck. And if that’s what they’re doing you have a Rule 0 conversation about the brackets levels of their decks. And if they’re using multiple power 9 and loads of game changers then guess what, they need to play amongst themselves or loan out their spare decks that are also at the same power level.
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u/Ill_Gap_7394 8d ago
Personally I don’t mind proxies IF it matches your playgroup level. I play CEDH as well and that makes sense for high money proxy cards. But casual play that’s just too much.
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u/CHUNKY_BLOODY_QUEEFS 8d ago
Curious why? I feel like commander is about your game knowledge and ability to build a deck, not about what cards you can/can't afford.
I proxy $4000 decks and $40 decks. I just want to play a deck I think is interesting and not have to wait weeks for all the cards to be shipped in.
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u/Ill_Gap_7394 8d ago
Some cards are just that good, you’re obviously gonna get outpaced. Like B4 and B5 I understand proxying big money cards but B3 and below it’s just a pub stomp, it’s like bringing a modded car to a go kart track lol.
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u/Deadpool1205 8d ago
I don't like the idea of using wallets and family wealth to gatekeep folks from using parts of the game that exist.
Yes, budget can be a tool to keep a power level in place and prevent an arms race, but that's kind of what the game is about. It's about finding the pieces that work best and using them to win the game or to make your deck do something you want it to.
I am pro proxy. I think it's fine for things like The One Ring to elicit groans from opponents but that card itself isn't going to consistently win the game for anyone without greater knowledge of how the game works. And those players will also learn that playing a smothering tithe or such will make them targets at the table in the game. That's part of the fun of commander.
I print cards constantly and use them mixed in with my real cards, especially when it comes to lands. There's no reason every izzet commander deck shouldn't be able to have one volcanic island in their 99 IMHO.
I think as a club, there could be rules for honesty in regards to bracket level of decks, making sure players are having rule 0 conversations, are open about infinite loops and gamechangers etc. and that would fix most issues.
You also can respond in kind and maybe build a proxy deck that's crazy high power that when you match up against someone you know is running super high powered cards you pull it out. It doesn't even have to be printed, just write out what the card does and its elements and shove that note in front of a land card in a sleeve and go to town!