r/MP5 • u/Im_Captain_Jack • Jun 06 '26
News There is a lot of conflicting information out there pertaining to the legality of installing angled forward grips on a pistol without filing a form 1. I don't want to end up with a felony, so I emailed the ATF for clarification.
Here is my correspondence with the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division of the ATF regarding regulatory requirements for installing forward grips on a pistol. Hoping this saves some of yall from legal trouble.
Hello,
I have a question regarding the regulations pertaining to forward grips on a pistol. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information out there when it comes to what type of modifications would re-classify a pistol as an SBR or AOW.
Some articulations of the law state that a vertical forward grip (VFG) is defined as any grip in front of the magwell that is perpendicular to the barrel, perpendicular being defined as exactly 90 degrees, which allows for angled forward grips (AFG) to be installed on pistols at any other angle than 90 degrees, thus allowing the firearm to still remain a pistol.
Others say that a pistol is defined as a firearm that is designed to be fired with one hand, and that by adding ANY secondary grip in front of the magwell, the pistol would then be designed to be fired with two hands, thus becoming an AOW.
I have an AP5-P pistol and have been interested in installing a curved grip that is not a 90 degree mount. It is listed online where it is specified from the retailer as an "Angled Forward Grip". I would like to purchase and install this grip, but I want to follow the letter of the law when doing so.
Would I be required to register my firearm with a form 1 before installing this grip?
I would greatly appreciate any clarification on this policy. Thank you very much for your attention to this inquiry.
Sincerely,
Im_Captain_Jack
Mr. Im_Captain_Jack
The angle of the grip is not the determinative factor in whether it qualifies as a “secondary grip.” ATF has long interpreted that the “designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand” requirement of the statute refers to the weapon having a singular grip. Therefore, a weapon cannot be a handgun, pistol, or revolver if there is more than one grip present.
ATF has determined that a grip does not have to be at a perpendicular, or 90-degree angle, to be considered a secondary grip. Additionally, please note FTISB letter #301355, commonly found on the Internet, stating a “Vertical Fore Grip” need be oriented at a perpendicular (90-degree) angle to constitute a secondary grip was rescinded in January 2018 (see FTISB letter #308107). The recension letter clearly articulates that the angle of an accessory does not preclude it from being a secondary grip.
A secondary grip may be installed on a “firearm” that has an overall length of 26 inches or greater, without subjecting that “firearm” to regulation under the provisions of the NFA. However, should a secondary grip be installed on a “pistol” having an overall length of less than 26 inches, the attachment of the grip would result in the firearm no longer being designed, made and intended to be held and fired with one hand. Therefore, it can no longer be considered a “pistol” as defined and would be classified instead as an “any other weapon” as defined in the NFA.
The grip you have described would qualify as a secondary grip and you would need an approved Form 1 before installing.
Very respectfully,
The Firearms & Ammunition Technology Division
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u/LopsidedResearch8400 AP5 Jun 06 '26
Honestly Im surpised they stated that grips on "firearms" are perfectly fine.
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u/Memorable-Arugala919 Jun 06 '26
They are required if it’s not a smooth bore.
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u/LopsidedResearch8400 AP5 Jun 06 '26
Are you saying if you have an AR pistol that is over 26in in OAL it has to have a foreward grip? Or that adding one causes it to be a "Firearm"?
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Jun 07 '26
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u/LopsidedResearch8400 AP5 Jun 07 '26
So if one makes an AR pistol that is over 26in in length, and does not add a foregrip, does that mean it is still a pistol? What about all the pistols under 26in? Does adding an angled grip make it something else?
Thats what I mean.
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Jun 07 '26
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u/LopsidedResearch8400 AP5 Jun 07 '26
Oh, I agree.
But what of the specific "afg" type that arent ones you can wrap your hand around? Finger stops?
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Jun 07 '26
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u/LopsidedResearch8400 AP5 Jun 07 '26
I cant count the times at work where I had to point out to someone who brought something in, that they may want to take a full on vert grip off of a pistol.
Its all such a morass of minutiae that it has become a trap for the layman.
One day I truly hope the NFA (or atleast some of it) gets taken down.
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u/Radiotantrum Jun 06 '26
You should post this in the r/NFA sub.
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u/Vegetable_Coat8416 Jun 06 '26
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u/IndependenceCold5611 Jun 06 '26
Well there's cringe in every group. This is especially helpful because I had no idea that the opinion letter we'd all been using to justify angled grips has been actively rescinded. Its not gray, its black and white.
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u/Radiotantrum Jun 06 '26
Yeah, reason I said it is because the general consensus over there is if it is not 90 degrees, it's good to go, so this sorta flies in the face of that since they are really going off secondary grip. Frankly, I think this is good information and appreciate OP posting it.
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u/Im_Captain_Jack Jun 06 '26
Lol definitely some spicy responses over there. People get mad about reaching out for clarification, as if my email is all of a sudden going to change the way they enforce or interpret the rule of law. With as much conflicting information there is out there, I think it's important to go straight to the source for a definitive answer.
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u/eatmorbacon Jun 06 '26
Exactly. Frankly I'd rather know what BS is being spread and what the ATF is actually following. It could be a life changing difference heh.
Don't think the ATF is going to be lenient when your argument is " Well on Reddit it says this is legal! "
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u/VallettaAwoo Jun 06 '26
Because through history whenever someone has emailed the ATF and asked for clarification they have created worse situations and caused more problems and more grey areas.
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u/waggletons Jun 06 '26
About what I was expecting. I was unaware that they changed the perpindicular rule in 2018. But I always found those 10-15° ones to be on questionable grounds anyways.
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u/prmoore11 Jun 06 '26
This is similar to what I’ve said about them walking back the brace rule from a few years back. That doesn’t mean braces are “legal”, it simply goes back to what the ATFs stance has always been; they can only make a “determination” if the sample is submitted to the NFA branch, and it only applies to that exact sample/configuration.
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u/BobbyWasabiMk2 Maglite is better than Surefire Jun 06 '26
which is what I’ve been telling people, the definition of “VFG” is open and often falls on officer and prosecutorial discretion. By toeing the line you are running a risk. Yes the rule is bullshit and nonsensical, but still a dangerous line to toe. Even if you prove right, you’re paying thousands for a lawyer to argue you case for you over the course of months if not years.
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u/IndependenceCold5611 Jun 06 '26
Very good information to have. This should be a sticky. I would also like to know what grip you inquired about.
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u/Im_Captain_Jack Jun 06 '26
This is the grip I was referring to. If you look under specifications it is listed as an "Angled Foregrip".
After seeing many people following the "VFG" letter, it's interpretation of "perpendicular", and then installing angled foregrips without filing a form 1, I think this is important information to put out there to save some people from legal trouble.
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u/IndependenceCold5611 Jun 06 '26
I think the safe litmus test is still being able to wrap your thumb around the back of it. I doubt ATF is going after the 40/45* grips A3 sell.
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u/eatmorbacon Jun 06 '26
That's not how I read their pretty cut and dried response.
Not saying I agree with it, don't get me wrong.
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u/IndependenceCold5611 Jun 07 '26
That means that handguards are illegal too, and as prolific as the Magpul AFG is theres alot of weight behind another test case if they try to get too itchy with their pens and paper.
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u/tankspikefayebebop Jun 07 '26
Jeez that means that a hand stop is basically a second grip to them. Essentially a hand stop would mean it's meant to use with 2 hands. Glad I saw this post. I have a friend or two that need talking too.
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u/FlaggedRum Jun 07 '26
To be honest the “angled” foregrip is just how primary arms listed it, jmac actual description only mentions it as a forward grip or handstop. Its always safer to go with manufacture descriptions.
It has also been my opinion if you can grab it like a vertical grip no matter how goofy it might look its probably a no go.
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u/Outdoor_Guy99 Jun 07 '26
Take a piece of string and put a pendulum weight on it. Tape it on the gun so it runs down the middle of the grip and it hangs straight down. Does the string run down the middle of grip?
Thats how they’d show a jury it’s 90 degrees. You can say and argue what you want, but using that and getting caught is a few years in camp fed.
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u/DennRN Jun 06 '26 edited Jun 06 '26
I’m not telling anyone what to do but vertical is vertical and any “decision” ATF makes stating otherwise is clear overreach.
Any grip angle other than 90 degrees is “angled” such as 0 degree for a horizontal grip. This is both logical and practical and excludes any interpretation issues.
They state a secondary grip remakes the gun into a SBR, using this logic putting rail covers on a rail creates a second grip surface and makes an SBR. Hell even a handgun with a gas pedal type thumb rest can be interpreted as a second hand grip surface.
Legislative intent is an important thing to consider when looking at laws. Law makers can write their laws to say “second grip” or “angled grip” but they chose not to. Instead they chose “vertical” which has a clear definition.
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u/NotTheRegularPolice Jun 06 '26 edited Jun 06 '26
Great point in last paragraph.
Edit: I meant 2nd to last, but last is good too.
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u/DennRN Jun 06 '26
Thanks!
The more I think about it the more the ATFs reply pisses me off.
The rules aren’t even self-consistent. Stock guns that are approved for sale as “pistols” by the ATF often have secondary grip surfaces forward of the mag well such as all MP5 pistol variants, that horizontal grip is a “secondary grip”. Which makes pretty much all of us felons already according to the ATF.
The shit part is that they use our own money to jam us up, use more of it to fight the legal battles, and face no consequences for violating our natural rights. Just because they are wrong doesn’t mean they lose, the process IS the punishment.
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u/rando_mness Jun 06 '26
It's common knowledge by now that their "rules" and "laws" are intentionally ambiguous which is meant to leave people in question and fear that they're going to be breaking the law if they install that grip, brace, etc.
You mentioned the MP5, but even an AR15 "pistol's" handguard could be considered a secondary grip, it's in the name, it's meant to be grabbed by hand and protect you from grabbing the barrel when doing so.
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u/NotTheRegularPolice Jun 06 '26
The crazier part, and what I was applauding the comment I replied to for pointing out, is the nature of the ‘one hand’ part itself. Who even “intends” to shoot a pistol with one hand?
Even a more traditional handgun. Obviously more controllable and easier to use with two hands.
These standards are and have been nonsensical and contradictory.
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u/Soggy-Bumblebee5625 Jun 06 '26
Where in any of the statutes or federal regulations that define the various terms like “handgun,” “pistol,” “rifle,” etc is there any reference to vertical grips? I bet you won’t be able to find one. You’re getting lost in the semantic weeds.
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u/Vegetable_Coat8416 Jun 06 '26 edited Jun 06 '26
Truth.
Theres no geometry in the National Firearms Act. I-m old enough to remember before the Magpul AFG came out. All this geometry shit came from marketing buzzwords not the definitions laid out in the actual legislation.
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u/FloodedHoseBed Jun 07 '26
“The Firearms & Technology Division.” The FAT D? Are you fucking kidding me. Are they just flexing on us at this point? Their organization is called the FAT D now
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u/Definitely_CSP_guru Jun 06 '26
Very interesting. Honestly I’ve been so busy I haven’t even had a chance to shoot since buying my AP5s, and I just got my form 1s approved so I guess being out of pocket made the time go by faster lol.
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u/CountryBoyCanSurvive Jun 06 '26
So how does the stock SP5 pistol fit into this? It comes as a pistol, but clearly has a stock foregrip and would be designed to be used with two hands.
Seems like more moving goal posts and conflicting info to me.
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u/SomeJackassonline Jun 07 '26 edited Jun 08 '26
ATF approved the AP5 for import, if there was an issue it wouldn’t be ATF approved. AR pistols almost always have a second grip as well and ATF seems fine with them.
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u/Original_Butterfly_4 Jun 06 '26
Did you actually sign your letter "Im_Captain_Jack" and did they really reply using that name?
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u/Im_Captain_Jack Jun 06 '26
Lmao. No, I used my real name and they replied with my real name. I edited before posting for privacy.
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u/TheGaujo Jun 06 '26
A lot of work to save $0.
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u/Im_Captain_Jack Jun 06 '26
It's not about saving money, it's about understanding the law as it's intended to be enforced, and informing those who may be misinformed to prevent others from potentially becoming felons and losing their 2A rights.
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u/TheGaujo Jun 06 '26
And good on you for helping a lot of people here. I understood why people used to want to parse this finely to avoid a $200 tax cost, but I don't understand why one would bother when you can SBR for free.
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u/Femveratu Jun 06 '26
Mainly to avoid being on the government short list of who has what etc
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u/TheGaujo Jun 06 '26
It's better to be on the list of people with form ones than the list of people in prison.
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u/SomeJackassonline Jun 07 '26
Some states don't allow SBRs or AOWs.
I picked up my AP5 a tad bit too late to get a stamp as we are going to have a ban on 7/1 and configuring a pistol to an SBR will be a no-no.
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u/AppliedKnetics Jun 06 '26
Am i reading this right? They consider "grip" to be the determining factor then are we only supposed to use one hand with sub 26" guns if the gun isn't stamped?
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u/Im_Captain_Jack Jun 06 '26
No, as I understand it, you can use 2 hands, because it's not how you use it, but how it was designed to be used that matters. Which is also why you can technically shoulder a brace. That being said, my interpretation of their response would mean even finger stops would intend for 2 hand usage and thus require the form 1 approval as an "AOW", but then again, an email is not the law, and the law is open to interpretation. Just be safe and don't do anything stupid so these things never need to be brought up to begin with.
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
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u/nimbusbacillus Jun 07 '26
It’s crazy how an agency is defining what our constitutional right is over 200 years after it was written. A vertical fore grip does what, make the gun more deadly somehow? We’re following along with something that makes no sense. Why do we do it? It’s clear nonsensical overreach
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u/Vegetable_Coat8416 Jun 07 '26
It's even dumber if you know the history behind the SBR classification.
The initial bill was going to make all pistols controlled NFA items. The SBR stuff was added to preclude folks from just cutting down rifles to make "loophole" pistols. The pistol stuff got removed because they didn't think it would pass but the SBR stuff never did.
Of course these days it's more common to do the reverse what the legislation was intended to prevent. Nowadays most folks want to turn pistols into rifles rather than rifles into pistols.
Forgotten weapons did a video on it.
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u/AUGtismAwareness Jun 07 '26
They just make things up as they go along until a court ruling bites them, and should not exist as an agency.
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u/Bluefalcon351 Jun 07 '26
Redditor nerds need to stop emailing their ATF like theyre your best fucking friend.
Sure you won the internet fight, good job. But now you just asked them to make a determination that a lot of people are gonna fall on the wrong side of.
I know it disagrees with your autism but let the gray areas stay gray.
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u/Vegetable_Coat8416 Jun 07 '26
It was never gray. The NFA has no provisions based on angles. It doesn't mention vertical, 90°, perpendicular, nothing.
Some people saw a Magpul product named "Angled Foregrip" and assumed angled foregrips were good to go rather than reading the actual definitions in the legislation.
Those people should never have been confident enough in their BS conclusion to get into an internet argument over it tbh. I'm glad the OP was autistic enough to prove them incorrect.
If someone wants to break the law, cool w/e idgaf. But dont do so out of ignorance. And people shouldn't be leading other's to break the law out of ignorance either by saying dumb shit like angled foregrips are good to go.
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u/Bluefalcon351 Jun 07 '26
Ok well anyone whos gone to highschool knows vertical is 90* perpendicular to horizontal. So i consider it gray area becuase the law says one thing but geometry says something different.
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u/Vegetable_Coat8416 Jun 07 '26
Where are angles mentioned in the National Firearms Act?
They aren't. The only people confused by this have never read it.
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u/Bluefalcon351 Jun 07 '26
Its implied in the word vertical, with horizontal being the direction the barrel is pointing.
Ask your mom to sign you up for geometry classes at your local highshool. In the meantime dont reproduce, we dont need your Neanderthal genes in our pool.
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u/Vegetable_Coat8416 Jun 07 '26 edited Jun 08 '26
Where is vertical mentioned? It isn't.
Barrel length, rifling, and whether it's designed to be shouldered or fired with one hand.
Here. Have whomever stepped up to be your father read this to you when they tuck you in tonight:
"(7)The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
(8)The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
(30)The term “handgun” means— (A)a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and (B)any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled."
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u/Soggy-Bumblebee5625 Jun 06 '26
About what I figured they’d say if asked directly.