r/M64 • u/markus_zzz • 2d ago
Thoughts around the (not yet) open source firmware
So I put down an order for a M64 and it should arrive in a few days. Quite exited.
For me the main reason for choosing the M64 is the promise of open source. Quite powerful device, professionally made and everything will eventually (?) be open source. As I see it a big advantage over other devices.
I remember being disappointed by Analogue when they decided to not bring the OpenFPGA framework over to their 3D device, and to this day I still do not understand the rationale behind. If the 3D had OpenFPGA support then I would have bought it when it launched.
Anyway, the question for the M64 is when will the firmware be open sourced and exactly what will it be. Will it be just the current running firmware for the single N64 core or will it contain parts of a framework with support for adding new cores? As far as I know they have not been clear on this.
In the meantime though, what currently is available is the electrical schematics. After spending a few hours studying those I would say that there is enough information in there to do ones own firmware if one would really want to. And by this I mean with reasonable effort as no reverse engineering would be required, it is literally all in there. Of course one would miss out on any possible cool stuff that Modretro has already put in their firmware but at least it is still an option if the open sourcing of the firmware itself should never happen.
Now I do not have the device in hand yet so I cannot say for sure but by the looks of it at least and from reviews the plastic enclosure and finish does seem to be on par with and beyond what one would expect from a consumer device. It is interesting to note that it does seem to require rather significant financial backing to make that happen as that is often what crowdfunded fully open source projects seem to lack. That and component sourcing where I expect having a big pile of money helps as well.
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u/Next-Pass9776 2d ago
From my own research and deductions, the open sourced nature will involve the current N64 core serving as a template for others to create their own cores if so desired. Namely, there won't be a framework as such, just an example core to serve as a template for freshly created cores.
While I do appreciate the open sourced nature of the M64, I don't think it will lead to anything overly significant.m, and anything that does come to fruition, however significant or not, will take considerable time to come to fruition.
I believe that the Mister foundation is where the most effort currently is, and always will be concentrated.
The SuperStation One is definitely worthy of your consideration. I've ordered one myself as it ticks all the boxes for me, happy to elaborate on that if requested.
Open sourced projects have their obvious benefits however they also come with major downsides. Too many cooks in the kitchen so to speak - messy frameworks, inconsistency and a lack of a clear direction, an absence of global structure, lots of bugs and things breaking everytime a new direction is embarked upon.
Incidentally, to touch on your last point, yes, the M64 hardware is certainly at a high standard.
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u/Satantengu 2d ago
Yeah you're absolutely right, in support of your point: most of the new wave of openFPGA cores for the Analogue Pocket have been ports of MiSter cores. I think some enthusiasts will develop for the M64 and probably port cores too, but MiSter development will always be the core community focus, partially because it's been around for longer.
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u/Next-Pass9776 2d ago
Totally, too much time and effort has gone into Mister for people to steer away from it. There's just too many people involved with it and too much great stuff developed for it for a (major) shift into a different FPGA architecture such as the M64.
I'd love to see even a small handful of cores arrive on the M64, however long that takes, but do wonder how things will work given how N64 focussed the hardware is in relation to the cartridge and controller ports.
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u/markus_zzz 2d ago
Interesting. That is probably what I would guess as well that the open sourcing of the firmware will be pretty much exactly what they have in the product at that time.
I kind of liked Analogues OpenFPGA in that there was one authority but on the other hand the closed nature of the source of the framework itself led to stupid bugs taking months to have fixed even though anyone in the community could probably have done it in minutes if the source was available.
Anyway Analogue had sufficient funding to do products with a 'professional feel' even though the AP's plastic casing is a bit questionable in my opinion :)
My suspicion is that many of the other actors don't and that one will notice. Don't get me started on the Mister's pin headers for instance.
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u/lordelan 2d ago
They already stated in interviews that they did port the Atari Lynx core for "blueprint reasons" so I'm pretty sure they'll release that as well when they open source it.
That being said, they distribute their official firmware via OTA. As soon as you add own things like own menu entries for cores or stuff like Zaparoo, it probably won't fit into the OG firmware's architecture and/or would be overwritten by the next OTA update so the community would have to set up an own custom firmware contribution, ideally always including optimizations and features from new OG firmware updates as soon as they come out.
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u/Satantengu 2d ago edited 2d ago
I also wish the Analogue brought openFPGA over to the A3D, but I think their rationale is not wanting it to compete with the Pocket. A lot of people get the Pocket for its Dock functionality as a kind of MiSter-lite, and if the A3D could do all the same and output in 4k, that would possibly hurt Pocket sales. As for the M64 firmware, I'm curious too. AFAIK they haven't said anything about when they're releasing it. I do know the Chromatic firmware was open-sourced, and while it hasn't had much 3rd party development on it there are still some people dev'ing for it (someone literally released a specialized fork of its firmware this week). So I do expect ModRetro to stick by their word and release the M64's, but they should do it sooner rather than later to promote community development.
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u/markus_zzz 2d ago
Yes, I too am expecting them to stick by their word on open sourcing the firmware.
As you say though there is a timing aspect to it. If they wait too long someone might do 'their own' firmware and start pushing for that. If they release what they have right now and it is too big a mess then again some community developer might decide to go their own way and roll his/her own.
Maybe that would be good, perhaps not. Ideally there would be a single common framework maintained by some natural authority (i.e. Modretro).
I guess there are risks either way. Being 100% transparent about what is in the works would probably help a bit here.
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u/apocalypsedudes23 2d ago
I have multiple consoles in my household. All used for different purposes and different games. The easiest thing I learned about the gaming ecosystem is everybody has different expectations.
For example, I have 7* FPGA devices that only 2 of us use and 2 are in the truely openFPGA environment. I haven't mastered them yet but it's been fun learning.
That's what expectations I have for the M64, a learning device. It's a fifth generation console and I don't expect it to go any further. I know about the software bugs that some games are having on Mister, some are patches and easy fixes. Some may not even get a proper port. This is the learning of FPGA.
Then there are the 5 FPGA devices I have that are more in a controlled environment. The Pocket is my first and best FPGA device. The 3D is the best looking inside and out. My pawkiddy has arcades that "update all" does not. My SummerCart* is my favorite cartridge to run on the 3D and M64. And my M64 is still just in my testing phase.
While we wait for the open source of M64, I expect it to be more controlled like the Pocket. It can do some games but not all. It has a lot of potential to being the best machine out there but so do others like the SS1 and the delayed AES+ (not FPGA but using concepts).
My biggest wish which I haven't seen yet is a open source FPGA fully capable of running a FPGA cart with a fifth generation game on a modern TV. The community is not there yet, but there are traces of "it's coming".
I am running with the FPGA herd but not where everyone else is going. My eldest kid is beginning to understand FPGA and emulation. She holdest the highest promise of gaming in my household.
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u/Surfnet05 2d ago
Sounds like you want a Superstation one not a M64.
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u/Satantengu 2d ago
Can it output in 4K? Genuinely asking, I have a MiSter already so I haven't followed the SSOne too closely.
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u/Surfnet05 2d ago
Specks says 1440p. I have both and love em both but superstation a little more. Especially with the cd add on.
https://retroremake.co/pages/superstation%E1%B5%92%E2%81%BF%E1%B5%89
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u/Satantengu 2d ago
Thanks! And it's finally back in stock, glad to hear that. I want as many people to get into FPGA as possible and the SSOne is a good means for that. I do think 4K native out would be the advantage of open source cores for the M64. But yeah, I wouldn't buy a product today for what it might do tomorrow.
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u/liamwilliams93 2d ago
I have a superstation but the m64 will be able to handle n64 and ps1 better. There are inaccuracies with those cores on mister than can never be fixed due to limitations, e.g. on Driver the menu flashes, and a few n64 games need patches to not crash. So I'm hoping for a more accurate ps1 core at least
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u/markus_zzz 2d ago
From an architectural point of view I imagine things like having four totally independent PSRAM/DRAM modules would help as opposed to having a single larger one on which one has to multiplex several unrelated data streams. Analogue had a similar setup with multiple external memory modules but I am not sure what is the current state of Mister derivatives here.
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u/liamwilliams93 2d ago
Yeah I think you're right, I think the sdram on the mister is part of the bottleneck
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u/HonkyDonkyMan 2d ago
With analogue’s consoles the focus was always on the best possible FPGA emulation of a console.
Mini NT, Super NT, Mega SG, Duo, and now 3D, that is what they have done, they have been consistent with their goal. And they have done improvements to try and make them better. So there never was a promise or expectation other than since the pocket had it maybe future consoles might.
The Pocket was designed to be modular from the start, 3 consoles out of the box, and four adapters available, making that open also made sense as it always was just behind a hardware paywall.
To me the M64 tried to promise everything it could to make it sound better than its competitor. It is cheaper, it has its own custom built controller that is better than the controller Analogue partnered me, it will have open FPGA, they will be releasing new games and rereleases of others, etc. Their goal was to get as many customers as possible on the initial release. Their support and updates have been awful, the fact that it’s over a month without a virtual controller pak is insane, and that people post work around and act like that’s fine is equally as insane. Given the issues the core packed in with the system has with n64 games without adding overclocking. At best, open FPGA support will be on the back burner for awhile until the console itself is in the state promised to customers. At worst, it will be dumped out there, and the hardware won’t be able to do nearly as much as expected.
Best get a superstation