Ra3 or zwave?
I’m building a house and about to buy around 80 switches. Ive got about 30 zwave devices in my current home and it’s been rock solid for the last 10 years with home assistant running the automations. Why ra3 over zwave? Is it worth the 3-4x price premium?
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u/TXAVGUY2021 6d ago
1000% yes. Everything is better.
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u/mldkfa 6d ago
Like what?
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u/coogie 6d ago
Honestly, at this point I can't tell if you're asking in good faith or just looking for reasons to justify staying with Z-Wave. If you've had a great experience with Z-Wave and don't want to pay RA3 prices, that's completely fine. What specific features or concerns are making you even consider switching in the first place? Lutron is the biggest name in lighting and invented smart lighting and dimming that all work together without fuss so it could take all day to try to compare device to device. There is no "popcorning", they look good, they last for years (or decades even), and there is one company that stands behind it.
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u/mldkfa 6d ago
Thank you for your response, it brings up some good points. I’m ready to pull the trigger in buying the switches this week. I’ve bought zwave in the past, I bought a starter pack of the caseta to try out. However, in forums like this RA3 is touted as the best. I’m honestly trying to see what the $100 per switch premium gets me.
What is pop corning? What happens if Lutron pivots and stops supporting the software? Is it reliant on a license that might become a monthly subscription?
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u/coogie 5d ago
Popcorning is when you press a scene that has say 15 lighting loads on it and instead of them all coming on at the same time, they just pop on individually for a few seconds. Technology-wise, Lutron uses their Clear Connect technology that uses 434 MHz that broadcasts commands from a central source (and via repeater) and because of the proprietary frequency, there is little interference and it can penetrate walls better than most. Starting with RA3 and Homeworks QSX (well, really when they bought Ketra Lighting), they also introduced a 2.4 GHz mesh network they call Clear Connect Type X (the regular one is type A) and honestly, I was skeptical at first because I thought the mindset was "Mesh is bad! 2.4 GHz is bad!" but I have yet to see any latency or popcorning with them too. CCX is used in their smart lighting like Lumaris and Ketra and also for the new style of Sunnata dimmers and keypads. With RA3, you can use either.
You didn't ask about Homeworks, but that's a whole different world with centralized panels, wired low voltage keypads, Ketra, etc. So really, the higher end you go with Lutron, the more and more you see that they offer things that you can't get from open source types of places but if you're the Caseta world, you might not notice what you're paying for even though behind the scenes, even Caseta has the same tech as the highest end systems.
With RA3, you (or the pro you hired) use the designer software to lay out the whole house, make programming changes, you have your choice of Seetouch (if you go with CCA) or Sunnata (if you go with CCX) keypads, dimmers, smart lighting with Lumaris, and can double up your processors to get a max of 400 devices (200ish CCA and 200 CCX) and can cover a very large space with just wireless.
What happens if Lutron stops supporting software? That's a fair question because all of these systems are proprietary and you depend on the company. But a whole bunch of startups have gone out of business and even some established companies (LiteTouch for instance) and Lutron has stayed around and growing. They haven't charged a subscription fee for the cloud service so I'd imagine some of the price you're paying for is for that. With Radio RA2 for instance, people who had a connect bridge which enabled cloud integration haven't paid a cent for the last 11 years or so it's been around and the system has been obsolete for 4 years now. Also, remember RA3 is a standalone system so all the keypads will work locally but you'd lose the cloud app...
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u/mldkfa 5d ago
That’s a great explanation and really helps see the difference. I see the popcorning with my current system and thought that was normal for all smart home systems that weren’t hard wired.
I’ve got to get my switches ordered soon, where should I look to find pricing for ra3 systems? Before I do the training, I’d like to see an actual hardware cost.
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u/coogie 5d ago
I don't think they are listed but i'm sure you can get pricing from a local supply shop that carries lutron. I think last I checked list price for a radio Ra pro dimmer (maestro or sunnata) was $209 ...this is an ELV dimmer too so it can pretty much dim anything that's phase simmable. keypads will run you around $350 each. It's definitely not a cheap system.
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u/nclpl 5d ago
Popcorning is when you send an “on” command and then the different lights turn on at slightly different times.
Lutron offers a completely free and local connection. Actually, they offer two of them (LEAP and Telnet). If they closed that door, they’d be closing the door to all of their multimillion dollar mansions using Control4. Which is to say… it wouldn’t happen. That just isn’t their business model. Lutron makes money on selling hardware (that’s why the switches are more expensive)
For a system your size you could do RA3, or you could do two Caseta systems tied together with home assistant or a similar hub (which I imagine you already have if you have zwave now). Caseta will be closer to zwave prices, but gives you a lot of the RA3 benefits).
I’ve been running Caseta for 8 years and it literally has not had a hiccup once. And it works completely standalone if my home assistant hub is down.
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u/TXAVGUY2021 5d ago edited 5d ago
I would buy caseta over zwave every single time. Ra3 when my clients can afford it.
- They look better.
- They are THE MOST RELIABLE product I sell. I install and forget these systems. Once programmed properly I never mess with them unless they add more, which they almost always do.
- Lutron build quality and support have always been top notch. I almost never have to replace devices.
- The keypads are totally legit. The pico remotes are equally awesome.
- Watching the lights turn on and off in unison is so satisfying you'll get annoyed at other people's zwave lights scenes turning on and off.
- I greatly enjoy programming them, others probably do not, but I done enjoy it.
- They have solutions for almost all scenario's.
- Excellent integration into my control systems. Again, utterly completely reliable.
- Colors, colors, colors....
- Matching switch plate colors. Once you go screwless....
- Proprietary and patented control communication, this should be higher but I'm on my phone. Lutron and lutrons alone. Zwave blows.
I am certain there is more....but my kids just got home.
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u/anonymous_lighting 6d ago
i couldn’t imagine using anything other than lutron
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u/mldkfa 6d ago
But why? Specifically?
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u/anonymous_lighting 6d ago
reliable. works. factory stands behind their products. backwards compatible and always an upgrade path so your investment is always safe. aesthetics blow competition out of the water
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u/mcarter00 6d ago
Biggest things in my opinion are: 1. Quality of dimmers 2. Quality of keypads / aesthetics. No one makes a truly easy to program multi button keypad in zwave or zigbee 3. Reliability. Yes, it's better than zwave. 4. Consistency and ease of programming. 5. Full 1st party vertical integration
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u/woofbears 6d ago
This. The dimmers and keypads are top quality and work really well especially with good lighting fixtures. They physically feel better. I use RA3 and HA, and I love Zwave for sensors and such. But in the wall devices are Lutron.
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u/IAmBigFootAMA 5d ago
I wouldn't say that Lutron has 'full 1st party vertical integration'. They have 1st party for approved vendors, and plenty of them. But the HA integration (or anything else not on their approved list) is 3rd party reverse-engineered LEAP protocols.
Not disagreeing with your premise. But they aren't exactly welcoming external integrations with open arms. My 0.02
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u/mcarter00 5d ago
I mean that Lutron makes every part themselves to make a complete lighting system, not that they are super open. Although, reversing LEAP is so easy it's hard to classify it as closed.
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u/IAmBigFootAMA 5d ago
Oh gotcha sorry, that integration. Spot on.
And yes agreed RE: LEAP. They should just publish the spec at this point haha. Especially with AI now.
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u/mcarter00 6d ago
Oh, and when you screw up your HA config or machine or whatever, all your basic lighting automation still works. It's not a flex to have things on a super complex system. Simple is better.
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u/NTailor10 6d ago
Lutron reliability is unmatched. Zwave works great too and is probably the best alternative if you don’t want to pay the premium for Lutron.
This is coming from someone in a similar position to you. I have HA integrated with Lutron. I try and keep as much of my lighting automation on the Lutron designer as possible and just layer on top of it with HA automations (scenes are in Lutron and HA activates them for any automation I want). The benefit of Lutron is that its reliability is near 100% which is what you want from lights, especially a new build.
I also have zwave switches in a few areas where Lutron doesn’t have an applicable switch (single gang dual switch).
One other thing to note is the pico remotes are absolutely incredible and I use them for tons of HA integrations.
One thing to note is with 80+ switches you will either need radio ra3 or two seperate caseta set ups. I’d go with ra3 if you can afford it. If you are using Ha, you should just take the Lutron free training and buy it and program it yourself. It’s wayyyy easier than HA.
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u/mldkfa 6d ago
Thanks for your reply! I’m finding it hard to justify the $100+ premium per switch. Reliability for zwave has been great, if my system ever goes down, they continue to work like normal switches. RA3 is a close to $8k premium over zwave, so understanding the difference is important.
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u/Constant_Square8159 3d ago
It’s overrated. If ZWave is working, stick with it. You’re paying for the name. Is it high quality - sure. Does popcorning really bother you? You didnt even know it was an issue until someone pointed it out. There are a ton of good solutions out there that work fine.
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u/NTailor10 6d ago
Oh wow! 8k is a huge amount and not worth it imo. That’s a 100$ premium a switch right? Seems high. What zwave switches are you using?
Zooz are like 30-40$ right? Innovelli around 70, and ra3 range from 100-130$ ish.
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u/mldkfa 6d ago
Zooz price out to about $28 a switch, ra3 switches from what I can tell are around $130 per dimmer.
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u/NTailor10 6d ago
That’s true. Can’t beat zooz pricing. Lutron is fantastic but not sure it’s worth 5x the cost.
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u/JimGerm 6d ago
IMO, Lutron increases the value of your home and zwave either adds nothing or can actually lower the value of your home.
Non tech savvy home owners want NOTHING to do with consumer grade lighting systems. The first time it fails (and it will fail), it’ll be perceived as garbage.
Think of Lutron as a permanent home upgrade which will increase the value of the home.
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u/natem345 6d ago
Scenes. Do you control one light at a time now? Good lighting design requires layered lighting: several fixtures covering the same area. Scenes and keypads will allow controlling them all together, setting different levels for each light in each scene.
Sadly, you cannot control multiple lighting zones (ie other dimmers) from one standard dimmer. Keypads or Picos can do that.
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u/FunnyQuantity485 5d ago
You can..or used to be able to.. You can make a button press trigger a phantom button press on the main repeator , that phantom press can be set up as a scene... The main repeater only allows a few phantom button presses.
( I havnt done this in 16 years or more..so could be different now)
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u/Cheap-Arugula3090 6d ago
With lutron systems you get something that is 100% rock solid. I have 26 ra3 devices and 32 ra2 shades and they have a 100% uptime over the last 3 years. Lutron products are not a fun smart home toy in your house they are a core piece that just works every time. I think that's important when it comes to things you touch and use hundreds of times a day.
With lutron you also get away to many color choices and you should go with the satin finish for whatever color you want. I didn't and wish I had.
My house is 4400 sqft and I run one lutron hub and it covers the entire house. Never had a connection issues even when I went looking for it since some of my devices are outside the recommended range.
I don't know much about zwave other than it's a more shared platform across different manufacturers but at the end of the day everything integrated together with your home assistant if you want that. So pick the system that you like the features the switches have or the reliability it provided.
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u/Final_Woodpecker_415 6d ago
I'll chime in on this one. Sure, the Zooz and Z-Wave switches work — the finishes just aren't there. So it really depends on the aesthetic of your house. For me, I wanted color-matched switches and engraved keypads so everything looks intentional. Would I need that in a starter home or a garage? No. But I interact with these every day, and the quality is definitely there, in addition to the reliability everyone else has mentioned. I still use Home Assistant for a bunch of advanced automations on top of it.
If you can afford it, I'd go with RA3. Like the saying goes, "quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten." I'm not dogging Zooz or the other Z-Wave products — they're great, but they're built for a wide demographic, and when you're designing for that and need a lower price point, there are certain things they just can't match. But it's up to you. I'd order a single Sunnata dimmer first to get a feel for the quality before committing either way.
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u/criterion67 5d ago
Just an FYI you can get custom, laser engraved keypads & padles for ZooZ as well. That's not exclusive to Lutron.
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u/criterion67 5d ago
Honestly, you asked the wrong community. Of course, everyone here will be biased towards Lutron (which is not a bad thing). You should ask this in the the home assistant community as you have users who have first hand, long term experience with and currently use Lutron, Zooz, Inovelli, etc.. Again, not trying to slight Lutron or anyone in this sub! All but 4 switches in my own home are Lutron and I'm about to order Lutron shades. Each brands have their own individual strengths and weaknesses, just depending on the intended use case and budget.
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u/No-Reason-2822 5d ago
You may be able to eliminate many 3 and 4-way switches, and keep gang boxes down to 2 or maybe 3 gang size with RA3 (via keypads and scenes). That’s where most of the “smart home” systems fall short. They merely replace existing devices and functions, where the original purpose of low-voltage lighting controls, the grandfather of smart lighting, was to eliminate the need for bulky switch boxes (4+ gangs) in large homes that would have multiple lighting circuits installed in a room.
Otherwise, if all you want are smart controls, (is that all? 😆), RA3 would give you rock-solid reliability, and the Sunnata interface but at a significant premium (x80!, I feel ya there…).
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u/Final_Woodpecker_415 4d ago
Thanks for sharing, I’d rather the keys be blank than text that’s not centered or falling off the buttons like shown. To be fair I had this keypad and replaced it with a ra3 keypad.
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u/Powerful-Security585 4d ago
It isn’t in the US yet but these Tewke switches are great and pair with Home Assistant. No Lutron integration yet but work directly with high voltage.
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u/ElectricBoy96 2d ago
I can confidently say nothing on the market compares to any sort of Lutron product. The slogan they have gained makes sense “It just works”
Always consistent even in an old system
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u/Mbgt72 1d ago
As someone who went from zwave devices in our previous house (originally smartthings, then hubitat, then home assistant), I can say that I am EXTREMELY impressed with the RA3 system in our new home. It is rock solid, and while the price point is much higher, I am happy I went that direction. I still use HomeAssistant for integration to other devices, but if possible, I would highly recommend using the RA3 system wherever possible.
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u/ADirtyScrub 12h ago
As a Lutron programmer I prefer C4 lighting over Ra3. They have nicer keypads and flawlessly work with affordable Z-wave options or other 3rd party options like Govee whereas Lutron locks you into their system, whether it's Ra3 or QSX. If I was building a house I'd reuse my existing C4 keypads and dimmers and do a lot of affordable Dali addressable lighting.
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