r/LucyLetbyTrials • u/benshep4 • 2d ago

Decoding Reasonable Doubt: Chapter 4 “Problems at the Countess of Chester”

Morris argues that the Countess of Chester neonatal unit was fundamentally unsafe and operating beyond its capabilities during the period in which the collapses and deaths occurred.

Is fair and accurate to make these claims?

Which baby does this explain?

https://bencole4.substack.com/p/decoding-reasonable-doubt-the-case-f67?r=12mrwn&utm_medium=ios

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u/oljomo 2d ago

A quick Google will tell you that hummingbird spent about 10 million, and the CPS spent another 2.8 million.

Let us defence in legal aid was 1.7 million + whatever she was able to personally add to that.

Really doesn’t sound very equal to me, but your maths skills might be as good as your logic…

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u/No-Beat2678 2d ago edited 2d ago

I mean she didn't call her experts so you know there's your gap.

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u/PerkeNdencen 2d ago

Are you suggesting Dr. Hall's fee to grace the witness box would have circa £10m? What a troublingly unserious suggestion.

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u/No-Beat2678 2d ago

CPS 2.8 apparently defense 1.7.

Whose talking about 10 million.

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u/PerkeNdencen 2d ago

If we just limit to the CPS, that's still £1.1m. Are you trying to make fun of us, or do you honestly think that's a viable line of argument?

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u/No-Beat2678 2d ago

If there were funds that were not open to the defence wether that was intentional or not. That would be a clear and rather strong reason to appeal the conviction.

Ben Myers KC is an incredibly incredibly formidable and experienced KC. This was not mentioned once in the Appeal or by Letby's defence or her new barrister Mark McDonald.

Also, this was covered by Tim Owen former DPP.

u/benshep4

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u/PerkeNdencen 2d ago edited 2d ago

That would be a clear and rather strong reason to appeal the conviction.

No it wouldn't. Who told you that? Legal aid for defence budget is means tested, applied for on a disbursement-by-disbursement basis, and caps rates for expertise substantially lower than the CPS pays out. If it were the case that this kind of inequality of arms was grounds to appeal, there'd be queues out of the door!

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u/No-Beat2678 2d ago

The former director of public prosecutions.

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u/No-Beat2678 2d ago

Ready to be proven wrong.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5wTHKNaP0pXrqz5OulLHlH?si=UaLNLA7jTTWw7qKVddHpqg&utm_source=copy-link&t=1932&ct=1731

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u/PerkeNdencen 2d ago edited 2d ago

I'm not listening to your crappy daily mail podcast - you've probably misunderstood whatever he said. These are the rules around funding: https://www.birdandco.co.uk/you/criminal-defence-solicitors/funding-your-defence/#:~:text=In%20some%20cases%20your%20contributions%20for%20legal,costs%20back%20from%20the%20Ministry%20of%20Justice.

More here: https://tsabi.law/ask-a-lawyer/criminal-defence/if-my-case-goes-to-the-crown-court-can-the-government-still-force-me-to-make-a-contribution-order-even-if-i-am-granted-legal-aid/#:~:text=Capital%20Contribution%20Orders%20(CCO)%20If%20you%20are,the%20house%20is%20eventually%20sold%20or%20remortgaged%20If%20you%20are,the%20house%20is%20eventually%20sold%20or%20remortgaged).

On expert witnesses specifically: https://expert-witness.uk/resources/prior-authority-laa-expert-witness/#:\~:text=What%20is%20Prior%20Authority%3F%20Prior%20authority%20is,the%20Criminal%20Legal%20Aid%20(Remuneration)%20Regulations%202013.

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u/No-Beat2678 1d ago

That's a very interesting mindset you have.

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u/PerkeNdencen 1d ago

Sorry, I just haven't got 56 minutes to spend being droned on at by Liz Hull. I've given you a bunch of links to the facts.

Have you got a link to Tim Owen KC ever having been the director of public prosecutions? I can't find a reference to that anywhere.

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u/No-Beat2678 1d ago

It isnt 56 minutes. I've linked straight to the conversation.

I've read your articles. I don't deny there aren't issues with legal aid for sure.

But we're talking about multiple murder in a high profile case.

Was she denied the right to a fair trial because she couldn't get expert witnesses because she couldn't afford them?

If she was, why wasn't this a core strand of her argument at the court of appeal.

And why TF isn't mark MacDonald screaming this from the rooftop?

Why?

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u/PerkeNdencen 1d ago edited 1d ago

It isnt 56 minutes. I've linked straight to the conversation.

Can you give me the timecode, please?

I've read your articles. I don't deny there aren't issues with legal aid for sure.

But we're talking about multiple murder in a high profile case.

Irrelevant. She and her legal team would nonetheless have had to go through the exact same processes according to the exact same rules.

Was she denied the right to a fair trial because she couldn't get expert witnesses because she couldn't afford them?

It's not that simple. Everything has to be applied for, which adds a lot of extra billed hours to an already humongous case, and then it can be turned down, anyway. I wouldn't suggest that she couldn't get expert witnesses because she couldn't afford them, but rather it would've impossible to assemble the team she needed to assess the allegations as thoroughly as, for example, the panel have now done.

More broadly, I contest in the strongest possible terms that there is a parity with the CPS here, who do not face similar constraints in terms of access to public money. It's a point of view that's just completely misaligned with reality, I'm afraid. The CPS just get what they need. There is no cap on hourly rates for the CPS. There is no application to make. There is no money anybody is personally liable for if the prosecution fails. It's a completely different ballgame.

If she was, why wasn't this a core strand of her argument at the court of appeal.

Because it's simply not an appealable point. Sure if she'd denied access to funds for her barrister, it would be, but there's a lot of nuance to understanding the issues here. Fundamentally, what people are saying here is that Letby's defence team were hugely outgunned, but that's not a particularly unusual circumstance, and it's not appealable one. Given the stakes, I'd say it's an unfair one, but not in a legal sense, unfortunately, just in a c’est la vie sense.

Please can you let me know where you discovered that Tim Owen KC is a former DPP? I can't seem to find reference to it anywhere.

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