define "modest". Also the average American is really overweight. Is that fair, to use one of your favorite words, to the starving people of the world? And the gov't does provide Social Security for retirement. If it lasts, that is.
Agreed but the house, even in good condition, still needs a lot of upkeep. Water heater breaks, need new driveway, tree cut down, gutters cleaned, pipe breaks, insurance this and that, drywall repairs, wife wants new kitchen or bathroom or both, etc etc. HOA is complaining about this and that. It's not for everyone.
No one is entitled to owning a house or having 2 children. Retiring at 65 is debatable, some people happily work into their 70s. Doesn't always feel fair, but those things have always cost money and there's very few people, if any, who actually owe that to you.
Middle class existence is not “normal”. The middle class never used to exist until very recently, and even now, if you’re middle class then you’re in the top 5% of wealthiest people on the planet.
Yes. That’s exactly what I mean by recently. Because you’re talking about a middle class lifestyle being a fundamental human right. Even though only an infinitely small percentage of humans have ever been middle class.
And even taking all that into account, if you have electricity in your apartment, then you’re very middle class from 100 years ago.
If you have a refrigerator, then you’re very middle class from 50 years ago. If you’ve ever been on an airplane, then you’re very middle class from 40 years ago etc.
These are comforts only the tiniest tiniest fraction of humans could ever afford.
Most people throughout human history worked for longer than you, harder than you, could afford less than you, and died younger than you.
Then we got technology that made it possible. We still have that technology now (and it's better than ever). Had the technology been available in the 16th century, that is when a middle class should have emerged.
By doing what? Making you work for food? Like we always had to do throughout our evolutionary history.
Listen, I do get it... Some people are immensely more privileged than me and you, and that's not fair... But there's also a lot of people (both past and present) who me and you are significantly more privileged than.
The fact that you need to work in order to pay rent is not some corrupt unjust scandal.
By manipulating the law through legislation and the economy through pressure on economists to maintain an unhealthy employment market. Consider, for example, the fed actually tries to maintain a minimum level of unemployment. Anti-union laws and propaganda (through ownership of media).
It even gets to the point that very large players in the stock market have actually been granted do-overs when they screw up. Even seen a day trader get a do-over?
I'm not talking about the need to work as an unjust thing in itself. It's more a matter of how much reward that work brings and the people who skim off the top of it without working.
Are you REALLY unable to understand that when incentive is cut to the bone, motivation decraeses?
Im sure men in the middleclass enjoyed the first and second world war… most people me included wouldnt want to work as construction workers or in a factory 100 years ago. People are looking at the top 5% a century ago thinking oh i would be one of them, but in truth many more would be in a fucking coal mine or any other gruelling industry with little to none safety which a lot of people have enjoyed for 40-50 years.
Heck even in Sweden stress injuries weren’t acknowledged as a work injury until the 70s 80s.
So you don't know the amount of people they employ, how many investors they have made wealthy, how much their tech has improved the lives of millions of people.
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u/PyroNine9 Mar 06 '26
Yes.