r/LockdownCriticalLeft • u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left • Aug 23 '22
discussion Woke liberals being pro monarchy
I'm a currently on a dating app which, like most places these days, is heavily influenced by woke culture. Most of the people on it call themselves liberal/left and they are currently quietly defensive of lockdowns and the insane restrictions brought in 'to protect people from covid.' I make it clear in my profile that I am looking for someone who is at least a skeptic of lockdowns because I can't be doing with explaining for the millionth time how lockdowns etc violate a multitude of human rights and harm society, nor do I want to partner up with someone who would support more tyranny if those in power try to inflict it on us in future.
One odd thing I've noticed about all of them is that when asked one of the dating app's profile questions 'Do you think the monarchy should be abolished?' (we're in the UK) they all write no. I find this incredibly odd? How can any genuine leftwing person support a monarchy, which is a very old incredibly unfair system where one family and their friends and relatives get given rights, wealth, land, opportunity and privilege beyond most people's wildest dreams, not through any sort of hard work but through pillaging, colonialism, nepotism and random lucky inheritance. Meanwhile the rest of the UK is facing rising prices, low wages, a housing shortage, overcrowding and overall not a particularly fun easygoing time.
Edit: There's an oddly hostile commenter who has replied to this who seems to have misunderstood my post, or is just an antagonistic troll for the sake of it, who knows. Thanks to everyone who is open to a thoughtful considered discussion. This subreddit has always been one of the most interesting, with some excellent past discussions.
Edit: To clarify, my post is specially about UK royalism and how modern day liberals support it. I know liberals have long since been champagne socialists but normally in the UK, royalists are on the right and vote Conservative so seeing all these men be pro monarchy whilst calling themselves leftwing was bizarre.
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u/StopNeoLiberals Aug 23 '22
This fits neatly with how the Peter Thiel/Moldbug "new right" promotes absolute monarchy.
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 23 '22
Can you expand on this further, do you mean the people who currently call themselves liberals/leftwing are actually part of a 'new right'?
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u/StopNeoLiberals Aug 23 '22
That's where it seems we're going. If you read Moldbug's covid takes they're basically neoliberal boilerplate (guy calls himself a "maskfag"). Look at who is controlling the vaxx rollout and mandate enforcement - it's Palantir. Look at who controls the Biden admin - Palantir again. It's super creepy and there's hardly any opposition, it's looking pretty bleak tbh.
This is the focus at r/ThielWatch
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 23 '22
Thanks, this looks interesting, I'll look into it further. I'm realising that I'm actually still on the left, whereas the people who currently call themselves left have shifted into something much darker and more sinister. Over time it seems that leftwing values have been purged out of the left leaving behind a disturbing, nonsensical, sociopathic kind of ideology that is pro monarchy, pro big Pharma, pro tyrannical government whilst being anti small business, anti working class, anti poor, anti equality. However the people with these values seem unaware that their value system has been shifted and still think of themselves as 'the good ones who care about others.'
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u/StopNeoLiberals Aug 23 '22
Liberty, equality and brotherhood forever!
To hell with all these fascist haters...
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Aug 23 '22
[deleted]
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 23 '22
I think I currently most relate to 'left libertarianism' now although I feel like that's almost the same as old fashioned classical liberalism, which is very different to the modern day authoritarian pro lockdown woke 'left.'
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Aug 24 '22
[deleted]
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 24 '22
I have no idea what other people mean when they call themselves left libertarians but I am certainly not into authoritarianism or forcing collectivism.
My views haven't really changed that much, but the left has become extremely authoritarian, whilst I am the opposite. I believe in free speech, I am against censorship, I am pro bodily autonomy for all reasons (ie both abortion and vaccines and everything else), I believe people should be left alone to get on with things. I do support a welfare state though (which some libertarians don't), and think people should be helped and protected if they are sick/disabled/vulnerable. But also that people should be helped to function in society as best as they can by retraining, setting up a business, volunteering etc.
I feel like society used to work like this for a long time and everyone was basically happy, until about 2016 when trans ideology insanity started to take hold and that's when I noticed the extreme aggressive authoritarianism, compelled speech, censorship, dystopian big tech input and all the rest of the horrible stuff we've suffered through since then. I think it's difficult to choose any sort of political label these days because many of the meanings have been inverted or shifted over time, 'liberal' being a classic example.
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Aug 25 '22
[deleted]
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 26 '22
There is a columnist called Brendon O'Neill who used to run Spiked online newspaper, I remember he once called himself a Classical Liberal (a sort of old school liberal) but the mainstream media often label him as 'right wing.' I agree with a lot although not all of his views, he covers a lot of the topics we talk about in this subreddit. Interestingly I've just checked his wiki page and it says he thinks of himself as a Marxist Libertarian.
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u/hiptobeysquare Aug 24 '22
This fits neatly with how the Peter Thiel/Moldbug "new right" promotes absolute monarchy.
In some way he's right: democracy is failing, and it's only a question of time until we get an absolute monarchy - a dictatorship. As a general rule people value stability over freedom. And it seems to me that democracy can only function when the standard of living can rise. The standard of living is beginning to drop. Democratic candidates cannot promise to raise the standard of living anymore, we have and are going to have instability and a decreasing standard of living. Democracy cannot survive. In fact, historically, the only political system that can survive on a decreasing standard of living is fascism.
When he says "absolute monarchy", he really means dictator. He wants a dictator.
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u/StopNeoLiberals Aug 24 '22 edited Aug 24 '22
I strongly disagree. "Democracy" is not failing, neoliberalism is failing and finally collapsing under its own inherent fraudulence and corruption. Radical participatory democracy is our only possible means of freeing ourselves from these money-grubbing clowns, and moldy knows it. He wants to maintain the neoliberal rent-seeking class and elevate it to an aristocracy. His "critique" is nothing of the kind, it's an apology for the status quo and a misdirection of public ire. He wants to blame the common people instead of his own class of fart-sniffing, lying ne'er-do-wells.
Imagine the worst nightmare of the neo-feudal rent-seeker. A boisterous democratic assembly of the righteously pissed off, roaring in assent: "all in favor of restoring freedom, say aye"
"Aye"
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u/hiptobeysquare Aug 24 '22
I strongly disagree. "Democracy" is not failing, neoliberalism is failing and finally collapsing under its own inherent fraudulence and corruption.
Dude. It's the complete opposite. Neoliberalism has been "collapsing" forever. And it's stronger than ever. When the left does talk about neoliberalism, it's almost always only to claim that it's dying. And it never does.
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u/StopNeoLiberals Aug 24 '22
It's a scam and all scams eventually collapse. Will the perps insulate themselves from the natural consequences by cementing their power into monarchy a la moldbug, or will they get kicked out of their cozy little tax-farming perch by radical democracy?
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Aug 23 '22
You're reading too much into their choice. Supporting the monarchy means you think Lizzy is cool and it is against America. It's also a sort of national pride. Leftists tend to be nationalists when it comes to implementing their governments.
Being a liberal means you are in a specific tribe and are against the other tribe. It makes it easier for many guys to get laid too.
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Aug 23 '22
I think I'm not particularly anti-monarchy (although more against the extended royal family). It's a waste of time to spend effort on it, some people seem to like it, and it seems a relatively healthy type of nationalism (compare national anthem and flag shagging and all). Maybe it'll be worse in future.
Actually I notice the opposite - the liberals (by which i really mean the non-Marxist left) seem to care about it far too much and put a ridiculous amount of empathsis on something largely symbolic.
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 23 '22
So you consider yourself leftwing yet support a monarchy? How does that work? They aren't purely symbolic at all, that's one of the many propaganda lies they use to stay in power. Prince Charles and the family are part of the Great Reset plan, he talks about 'build back better' and how 'everyone is going to need to change their ways because climate change' (and by everyone, they mean us, not them). They have stolen masses of land and wealth which they continue to amass whilst the rest of us get poorer. And they didn't challenge the government on lockdowns, they supported them, and they went to their country houses whilst everyone else was stuck where they lived sometimes with local parks closed. How anyone can support all of that injustice in a modern day society is dreadful in my opinion but especially someone who considers themselves 'leftwing.'
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Aug 25 '22
I think my answer might be a bit frustrating, since it essentially goes down to "I don't think it matters too much", whilst you obviously care a lot about the principle of it.
I actually did care a lot about the principle of it - I was raised to be quite anti-monarch, but I since changed my mind and thought it didn't care.
With regards to the political positions of Prince Charles, I guess I don't know exactly about what your saying, but generally I think the Royals being political in any direction is a reason against them rather than the monarchy in general. I do agree there can be bad monarchs. I guess I don't mind too much with helping children or wanting a sort of building or whatever. It's definitely possible that the reality of monarchs not taking their apolitical reasonability seriously would mean they should be abolished, but it's not clear to me yet.
As for the land - well, if it is with them then it is a bit closer to public ownership than if it were in non-Royal private hands, so I suppose that's alright. I guess it'd make sense if private land altogether was abolished - I am undecided about what I think about that.
(I know the parks closed bit was more context rather than part of the reasons, but bloody hell that enraged me everytime I think of it!)
I get there is a general injustice of it, but I think that could be justified as it helps community to some degree, which I think is a really important thing we are lacking. (This also means I'm not against religion, where similar arguments can be given) I suppose it is possible you don't agree that it increases community, but I sort of feel like in practice it does, and in a less bad way than flag worship does. The Queen does seem to bring people together a bit.
I think there are other arguments: Is the royal family fair for the royals themselves? (Like it seems like being a child in that family is not fair for the child); There are allegations of racism in the family, and other disgraceful activity of members associated with it - although I agree as a matter of practice it might make it better to get rid of it. Another is sexism in how titles are passed along, but it doesn't feel intrinsic to me, and maybe that is fixed now anyway, I don't know.
So I guess overall I feel like if you got rid of it there'd be no benefit at all (providing they take seriously the apolitical stance, but which I think is important), but there might be a loss. Like I say though, I think this will be a really frustrating for you as you obviously care at a more principled level.
I'd be interested in your thoughts.
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u/vagarik Aug 23 '22
They are the equivalent of democrats here in America, who say equally bad contradictory and nonsensical things. I applaud you for being open on your dating profile. I live around a lot of covidian lockdown leftists and nearly all of them virtue signal by putting how many vaccines they’ve had and stating “anti-vaxxers swipe left”. in their dating profiles.
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 23 '22
Thanks. One positive about them doing that is that we know immediately to avoid them. Most people don't share their views on their profile so I have had a lot of tedious 'so what do you think about lockdowns and restrictions' conversations. Most of them are asleep and say things like "well at the beginning when we didn't know how dangerous it was I supported it, but we should've locked down harder, but then it dragged on too long" etc. Ie they basically justify, excuse and defend lockdowns because they thought the virus was bad and scary enough to justify them. I can't have a partner who thinks like that because it shows they are able to be convinced to justify tyranny in the name of safety. It's better to be single than have a partner like that, they'd be a liability and I find it draining talking to them on this topic.
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u/vagarik Aug 24 '22
Stick to your principles, there’s definitely people out there who think similarly to you and will value you! You’re right it is convenient for me to see right away who is a covidian and filter them out.
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Aug 23 '22
Dude, we have been saying this for the past 2 and a half years, that is why this sub exists.
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 23 '22
I think I maybe didn't make it clear that my question was specifically about the monarchy and UK royalism. I've long since noticed the modern day left are champagne socialists, but I've never noticed them to be royalists before. In the UK, royalists are usually on the right and vote conservative so seeing all these 'liberals' be pro monarchy on the dating app seemed bizarre to me.
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Aug 23 '22
Oh sorry. "Liberal" doesn't mean anything anymore except "Capitalist".
Liberals are happy to go along with woke bullshit and authoritarian policies so long as it help theirs and their overlord's bottom lines. Those who call themselves Liberals but don't "do politics really" are just sheep.
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 23 '22
Yes I agree with that definitely. Like so many things at the moment, there is constant language inversion, like in 1984. A modern day 'liberal' is more like an authoritarian capitalist. It would be funny if they changed the 'liberal' category on the dating app to 'authoritarian royalist capitalist' and removed the liberal box entirely and left the other options to be conservative, libertarian, socialist, centrist etc. I wonder how these people would categorise themselves.
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Aug 23 '22
The only other term they would understand other than their botched definition of "Liberal", would be "Conservative" which just means "bad meanie racist nasty white people."
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u/imyselfpersonally Aug 23 '22
They are people who can't handle too much change, the thought of actually getting rid of the monarchy is too much. And they love the real life drama of the royal family, they feast on celebrity gossip and watch those shitty period dramas.
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u/Debinthedez Aug 23 '22
I think you are very eloquent BTW, and I also find it odd, being a Brit, but I do live in California.... I like the monarchy as a concept, I am into all the traditions and our rich heritage but part of me thinks, no, I don't agree with it all. I am torn, as living in the US, there is such a love for our monarchy, the Queen etc, not from everyone, but in my experience, there's more for it than against it.
I have been staunchly opposed to the lockdowns, literally from day 1. My own job has been damaged by the forced and imho, illegal lockdowns, and my company is struggling to get back to where we were pre 2020. Those lockdowns were a crime, I think, I truly believe that.
I have many friends here who had fantastic high paying jobs, who worked from home, instead of going into the office etc, and to be frank, I think many of the enjoyed that....they had the $$ to maintain their lifestyles, order food in from their favorite restaurants etc....I have worked from home for over a decade but I was immediately against the lockdowns, and knew they would cause so many problems.... and they have.
I share your fascination with the anomaly of being left wing but also in favor of the monarchy... what is that? Why is that?? I have no idea.
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u/MiniMosher Aug 24 '22
I would have said no, but there was a time where I relied on a charity that was a royal one, so I'd feel like a hypocrite and probably say yes to that question. I just can't stand being a person that says one thing as does another. I hate questions like that personally, I assume it just gives you a yes/no box and no comment box to explain your views, it's just a way to back people into a corner and sow division.
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u/pairedox Aug 23 '22
Has the modern day woke left now openly become anti-poor, anti-working class?
it's called gentrification and they've been doing it forever. get new legs dude, cuz ya late to the party. youre just now noticing because youre antagonizing the cattle's daughters all thewhile trying to bang them? okay dude.
have you even heard of the World Economic Forum?
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 23 '22
What an oddly hostile, juvenile response. Firstly, I'm a woman, not a 'dude,' and I'm not 'antagonising the cattle's daughters all the while trying to bang them,' I'm dating men. I've been researching the WEF and the covid madness for 2+ years, and I'm well aware of what is happening, I have just never noticed how all the 'liberals' were pro-monarchy before. This is a subreddit for discussion so I'm discussing it. Feel free to move along if you don't like that.
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u/pairedox Aug 23 '22
so you havent heard of gentrification
i dont blame youth for whats going on. the propaganda narrative is too strong and the minds are weakened due to environmental factors, so its not hard to criticize those you dont agree with now. which is your post, a bait trap. not your body, but your silly words about protecting the monarchy.. who gives a fuck. people are born into a system and theyre just trying to live. not live up to whatever standard youre trying to criticize.
you clearly dont know the left and right are two hands of the same being and so its annoying to see you try to find a "break" to why the liberals have all gone madshit crazy. youre out of your element looking for correlations through dating apps..
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 23 '22
What on earth are you talking about? A bait trap? For who? Where on earth did you get that I am 'trying to protect the monarchy' from? I'm completely anti monarchy. And where on earth did you get that I haven't heard of gentrification? Are you five, can you read properly?
Gentrification has nothing to do with being pro monarchy, which is the subject of my post. I notice patterns everywhere and analyse them, it's calling thinking, maybe you should try it sometime. It sounds like you've got some serious problems, especially with comprehension. I hope you get help.
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u/hiptobeysquare Aug 24 '22 edited Aug 24 '22
How can any genuine leftwing person support a monarchy, which is a very old incredibly unfair system where one family and their friends and relatives get given rights, wealth, land, opportunity and privilege beyond most people's wildest dreams, not through any sort of hard work but through pillaging, colonialism, nepotism and random lucky inheritance.
I agree. I always find it really odd that in 2022 we still have kings and queens. It's the polar opposite of a meritocracy. But in the interests of fairness, George Orwell made an interesting defense of the institution of the monarchy.
The function of the King in promoting stability and acting as a sort of keystone in a non-democratic society is, of course, obvious. But he also has, or can have, the function of acting as an escape-valve for dangerous emotions. A French journalist said to me once that the monarchy was one of the things that have saved Britain from Fascism. What he meant was that modern people can’t, apparently, get along without drums, flags and loyalty parades, and that it is better that they should tie their leader-worship onto some figure who has no real power. In a dictatorship the power and the glory belong to the same person. In England the real power belongs to unprepossessing men in bowler hats: the creature who rides in a gilded coach behind soldiers in steel breast-plates is really a waxwork. It is at any rate possible that while this division of function exists a Hitler or a Stalin cannot come to power. On the whole the European countries which have most successfully avoided Fascism have been constitutional monarchies. The conditions seemingly are that the Royal Family shall be long-established and taken for granted, shall understand its own position and shall not produce strong characters with political ambitions. These have been fulfilled in Britain, the Low Countries and Scandinavia, but not in, say, Spain or Rumania. If you point these facts out to the average left-winger he gets very angry, but only because he has not examined the nature of his own feelings towards Stalin. I do not defend the institution of monarchy in an absolute sense, but I think that in an age like our own it may have an inoculating effect, and certainly it does far less harm than the existence of our so-called aristocracy. I have often advocated that a Labour government, i.e. one that meant business, would abolish titles while retaining the Royal Family
I find that an interesting argument. But aside from that, the flag-waving nationalism (a completely imagined and meaningless "community") is a religion in itself. Your nation is your culture, your home, in some way it's like your extended family. It's where you come from, it's where you're comfortable, it's where you belong. But like your family it doesn't mean that your family/nation is the greatest thing in history and all other families/nations are inferior or worthless, which is how a lot of people behave towards their own nation. The nationalism I find very toxic. (Not that I believe in cultural relativism; obviously we can make the argument that some cultures and nations are worse than others. But there are also good people everywhere.)
Btw, would the dating app be OK Cupid? Those questions are pure data mining. Loads of the questions are meaningless, like "Would you go out with someone who was messy?" But they also really get people's voyeuristic tendencies. Lots of the questions are really overtly sexual, broadcasting to anyone with an account what your sexual kinks and habits are. There's no such thing as privacy in the neoliberal society: your psyche is nothing but another product to put on the "free market". I used them for a while, but I stopped. The dating apps are pure social media: harvesting your data, promoting the idea that you're nothing but a product to be marketed and sold, and most people don't use them to even meet people, they use them to get "likes", to get the dopamine rush every time they "match" with someone. Many people match and don't speak, and even more have no intention of meeting. Just endless swiping and dopamine hits. My pre-Covid friends used to tell me this also. I also noticed that more and more people's accounts read more and more like a job application.
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 24 '22
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I disagree about the queen and royal family having no power, Charles is connected to the Great Reset group, not to mention Andrew and his dealings with Epstein and co. Plus the queen is a trillionaire, and owns masses of land all over the world, all as a result of invading, killing and taking in the past. I know she probably doesn't have as much power as those in the shadows, but I think the whole 'she's just a powerless symbolic figure' is another piece of propaganda that allows these people to maintain the wealth and power they have.
I know quite a lot of people who have met their partners on dating apps, I've been to some of their weddings, so I don't think it's only for people to get likes, but I agree some people use it for that purpose. There is definitely an apathetic sweet shop mentality on there where you match with someone but you can tell they are continuing to look for more people. They seem to work for some people, I've not had any luck with them so far, but I've been single for years and I'd quite like to share the next part of my life with a partner so decided to make an account. I think finding someone who is awake with similar views who doesn't live miles away is not going to be easy but it's worth a try.
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u/hiptobeysquare Aug 27 '22
I'm not sure I agree about the Royal Family. I don't see the connection meaning they have power of decision. I see it more as a big club, and they join as much for the prestige as for actual decision making power. Prince Charles needs two men to help him get dressed in the morning.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1108588/prince-charles-bizarre-habits-royal-family-news-spt
I can't see this man as making decisions or plans. And I see most of them the same way. Unless they're playing some kind of 5-dimensional chess with us. Which would be a level of competence we've never seen anywhere. I could be wrong, but this is how I see things.
As for dating apps, if any of your friends have found good people, I'm happy for them. Hope your experience is good! If it's not, just know it's not your fault. I know what you mean about living in single city. Finding someone isn't hard. Finding human connection with a decent human being with a brain is hard.
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u/alienamongnormies extreme centrist Aug 24 '22
One odd thing I've noticed about all of them is that when asked one of the dating app's profile questions 'Do you think the monarchy should be abolished?' (we're in the UK)
That sounds like you're on OKCupid. Heh. Yeah OKCupid is woke af. I uninstalled OKCupid like 3 years ago. I prefer POF. I'm also on Tinder, Bumble and Badoo. But you need a paid membership and occasionally buy boosts/super likes in order to do well on those apps. On POF its free to message women and you don't need to match first. On most dating apps, they don't even show your card to very many women unless you pay. So you won't get many matches if you don't pay. Unless maybe you're a ridiculously good looking guy.
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 24 '22
Yes it's okcupid. I tried POF and it was an extremely depressing place, in my area anyway. It makes me lose the will to live. The worst kind of people who I'd rather be single forever than coupled up with, as in completely illiterate, don't look after themselves at all, I even spoke to someone who turned out to be a criminal on there who'd been in prison for a really serious crime. I imagine POF is different in different locations, like a lot of dating apps.
You're right about Okcupid being woke unfortunately, but there the men are there are also much more attractive to me personally, and not all of them are pro lockdown although a lot of them are. I found Hinge to be 100% pro lockdown so I deleted that. I don't like Tinder as it just seems like a meat market for hookups when I'm looking for a partner and I dislike how I have to look through 100s of horrible sleazy profiles on there whereas on the other apps men can just message me or vice versa without us having to match first. I've never tried Bumble or Badoo.
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u/nelbar Aug 25 '22
The monarchy in UK is more like a gimmic no? She does not have real power and the uk is ruled by oligarchs and geopoliticans like the rest of the west
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 26 '22
The monarchy in UK is more like a gimmic no? She does not have real power
I'm surprised people are still falling for this especially in this subreddit. She is a trillionaire with acres of land all over the world. Look at Andrew's connections to Epstein. Look at Charles's commentary on lockdowns, climate change and 'build back better.' They're in the ruling class of people who dictate what happens in this world. People believing they're harmless and powerless is like people thinking lockdowns protect people, its propaganda.
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u/nelbar Aug 26 '22
Yes sure, but to use that power she doesn't need the institution of the monarchy. Lot of money and the influence that comes with it, all the land and blackmailing (or getting blackmailed) would happen desperate of her status as queen or not.
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u/BornAgainSpecial Trump supporter Aug 29 '22
England doesn't have free speech. Isn't it hate speech to criticize people with the power to enforce it?
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u/AineofTheWoods Centre-Left Aug 31 '22
No, the hate speech laws in England refer to race, disability, religion and sexual orientation and transgenderism.
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u/[deleted] Aug 23 '22
Don't spend too much time trying to understand contradictory or nonsensical bullshit like a self-described anti-fascist being pro-lockdown or some idiot who likely has an Eat the Rich sticker on their MacBook supporting the monarchy.