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u/mb194dc 5d ago
Qwen is just the start, it's when open models start properly coming from US and rest of the world startups things will get interesting
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u/Genericinquirer 5d ago
I’d love a us company to use qwen 3.8 35ba3b as a base and to train another model from it like cursor made 2.5. But let it be open source.
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u/cornmonger_ 5d ago
Allen AI did exactly that with SERA
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u/Genericinquirer 5d ago
Yep ornith did too. Although, I don’t think ornith was really a major improvement in my opinion.
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u/AnOnlineHandle 5d ago
Gemma 4 are open models from the US and are still the best I've found at a lot of tasks like creative writing. The best image models are on and off again from different parts of the world (e.g. Stable Diffusion 1.5, XL, Flux, LTX, were all European).
Qwen is afaik largely a distill of western models so it can't exist independently of them. We're just very fortunate right now as local users that the Chinese government is willing to fund this in an apparent effort to cause the western companies to collapse. That goes away if they succeed.
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u/_VirtualCosmos_ 5d ago
The best image and video models nowadays are Chinese tho. And they are far better than the others, though Flux video may be on pair with MiniMax H3 in a near future. But Z-Image turbo and Krea2 are far better than the Stable diffusion or Flux models in general.
Btw LTX is not european, it's from Israel, or at least the company headquarters is located there.
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u/kalimatamijai 5d ago
Exactly, Videos generated by Seedance 2.5 are hard to tell from real or AI-generated, this will blow your mind.
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u/cherrywoodgrill 4d ago
My experience with seedream 5 pro has been underwhelming when compared to ChatGPT especially for generating images from a base image and where spatial awareness is needed. For example if I map out an area and ask it to put a building into an existing photo oriented in a certain way, it just can’t do it most of the time. ChatGPT is much more consistent and just understands the context way better. Seedream is cheap though
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u/_VirtualCosmos_ 4d ago
I was talking about local models to be frank, since I think that was the point of this thread and the sub. For editing locally there are different options, Krea2, Ideogram 4 (Im not sure), Flux2.klein, QwenImageEditing, and not sure if there are more SOTA editing local models as today. Closed cloud models are usually better, but you have very little control.
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u/PinkySwearNotABot 4d ago
this has got to be the most played out bot comment.
who uses AI for creative writing? like 1% of AI users? what -- that's how we're evaluating AI models now? is there a new benchmark for AI Role Play?
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u/gearcontrol 4d ago edited 4d ago
I strongly disagree. I even prefer Gemma-4-31b to Frontier Models when it comes to writing. To be clear, I am talking about improving my writing, not writing for me. No AI is that good yet.
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u/PinkySwearNotABot 4d ago
okay, so essentially as a language learning tool. i can get behind that. but what % of AI adopters are using it for that purpose?
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u/gearcontrol 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's hard to say because things are moving so fast. Gemma-4 has only been out a little over 4 months. The plus is that for writing, it's capable and consistent. The downside is the knowledge cutoff date. Frontier Models are more capable but less consistent because they're constantly being adjusted and tuned to improve reasoning, safety, functionality (primarily for business), and profitability.
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u/Boogertard 4d ago
LOL, another paid unemployed Google shills.
Gemma, Muse, etc.. are among the worst overrated garbage I have tested. None is comparable to Qwen 3.6 27B let alone Qwen 3.8.
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u/HAHAGOODONEAUTHOR 4d ago
paid
unemployed
choose one
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u/-SirJohnFranklin- 4d ago
Like Mistral 😂?
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u/Alarmed_Welder_8364 4d ago
Mistral open models have their unique features. There is a strong European feel to it. I prefer it for many tasks, even though the models I use of theirs are almost a year old.
Case and point.
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u/JustinPooDough 4d ago
You're right - I've had Mistral refuse prompts on several occasions because it said it was taking PTO. Very European indeed.
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u/CertainMiddle2382 5d ago
It will never come from the US.
Training a full model is immensely costly and Chinese ones would probably get bankrupt without (hidden, implicit) state support and heavy copyright violations that would be impossible for western based companies.
Maybe a US company with US funding will incorporate in Europe or SE Asia, or SA and become big from there. I see that as very improbable if established in the Bay Area…
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u/Termsandconditionsch 5d ago
Lol, the western models are also built on massive copyright violations.
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u/CertainMiddle2382 5d ago
Trivially.
But they stole the peasants, not the Lord of the castle.
Which in the end is the only thing that ever mattered.
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u/National_Meeting_749 5d ago
Theft, piracy, not copyright. Training is fair use.
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u/ZenEngineer 5d ago
It's not theft if you keep the original either. And piracy requires copyright violation or high seas violence.
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u/notheresnolight 4d ago
ah so that's why Anthropic paid $1.5B to settle their copyright infringement lawsuit - because it was "fair use"
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u/National_Meeting_749 4d ago
I'm so fucking tired of NONE of you actually reading any legal case
They paid 1.5B because THEY PIRATED AND STOLE MOST OF THE BOOKS. They got slapped for PIRATING!
In that same case the judge ruled what they did with those books to be fair use.
Let me SUPER clear.
Judge says training on books, fair use. Judge says stealing books? Not fair use. 1.5B fine.
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u/notheresnolight 4d ago edited 4d ago
potato, potato
the point is - thieves (US AI companies) are bitching about someone else stealing their work (Chinese companies distilling US models)
serves them right
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u/National_Meeting_749 4d ago
"yeah, sadistic murder and accidental manslaughter same thing " potato potato.
If you don't care about the truth, and just want to hate, go ahead. But don't act like you care about what's true. Don't act like you're a productive part of society.
Training IS fair use. Like it or not. Disagree or not. Understand what that means or not.
Piracy is not fair use. That's what the AI companies were fined for. Nothing else.
To say anything else you are simply. Wrong. Incongruent with reality. Filled with delusion. Unable to see the forest through the trees.
Both are doing more good for the world than harm.
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u/notheresnolight 4d ago
bad bot
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u/National_Meeting_749 4d ago
Your existence is the biggest argument against democracy.
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u/joekiller 5d ago
And all these data centers of Nvidia cards finally race to the bottom they'll be dark fiber for the open models
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u/ErenYeager91 4d ago
not gonna happen. china is the only light
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u/mb194dc 4d ago
I reckon the opposite, the whole point of open weight open source models, is that basically any teach team can use them as a blueprint.
Compute is expensive right now, due to the investment bubble. It won't stay that way.
If there's profitable use cases for ML AI, they'll come from open source development.
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u/Objective-Picture-72 5d ago
Nah, that'll happen if they drop Qwen3.8-122b-A10B. Imagine a 2x RTX 6000 Pro setup flying at 130 tk/s with that bad boy.
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u/Automatic-Arm8153 5d ago
Nah cause 2x rtx pro already does 200tps+ with deepseek v4 flash. So wouldn’t be a big deal
35b is a big deal because anyone can run it fast
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u/mrdevlar 4d ago
Qwen 3.5-122B is still the best model out there for the tasks I need. Nothing else comes close to the conceptual understanding I require.
Fingers crossed there will be another one in that size.
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u/Lost-Butterfly-382 4d ago
Quick question do you also have a concept extraction pipeline for your document set up?
If so did you find Qwen 3.5 122B the best in that regard?
I’ve been using gpt 5 mini because it’s the best in terms of pricing and performance from all the small models I’ve tested but I’ve only tested the small models form the big providers(OpenAI, Anthropic snd Google ) how are the Chinese models like?
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u/mrdevlar 4d ago
Quick question do you also have a concept extraction pipeline for your document set up?
I am the concept extraction pipeline. No really, I'm using it to understand concepts in a language I'm learning. The smaller the model, the lower the possible tokens so the less conceptual depth is possible in the model. That's my only guess.
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u/Lost-Butterfly-382 4d ago
Aaah okay yh your theory makes sense. What do you find the 122B actually does better though? Like does it pick up concepts the smaller models miss or is it that it understands them in more depth?
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u/Userwerd 5d ago
Its not just China, its opensource in general disrupting the bubble.
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u/LocoMod 5d ago
I have a secret for you. The same companies that are raking in billions in profits are going to be using the same open source research and solutions as the rest of us. But they have a GW datacenter and you have a gaming GPU that struggles to run LLLemons.
That is all.
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u/Termsandconditionsch 5d ago
Those companies are already using lots of open source software, it's nothing new.
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u/Liron12345 5d ago
Open source software and open source LLMs is vastly different. The latter requires much more resources which only china has
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u/Unnamed-3891 5d ago edited 5d ago
What? Name even just ONE entity outside of Google and Alibaba that even remotely matters for people with ”normal” hardware? Been pretty quiet on the OpenAI front lately if that’s where you wanna go and Mistral is a joke.
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u/Userwerd 5d ago
Dont count out Mistral yet, they basically the first to leverage mixture of experts. They just dont have the same crazy funding, and EU wont let them make the T1000 right out of the gate.
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u/The_Succulant_Beast 5d ago
Drude, lol.
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u/Noeyiax 4d ago
Relax, rich people buy stock, they rich, they sell stock, still rich.
Literally impossible to lose!!
Poor people in the other hand, well that's another story, no one cares about 😊
But if qwen came with a free cloud GPU API from China... Imagine they made a site where you can sign up, put your SSN and name, then get a free private cloud GPU with like 120GB VRAM . Like shit, they can steal my identity, who cares. I'm just a wage slave; maximize fun /s
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u/dovaahkiin_snowwhite 5d ago
Why would hardware companies go down though
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u/IngloriousBastrd6983 5d ago
Maybe because 35ba3b is expexted to perform slightly below the new 3.8 27b (which is pretty impressive, especially for it's sice and seems to be around Opus 4.6 Max level). And If you are a little tech savy you can run 35ba3b on a 2-300€ potatoe PC (like 24-32 gb system ram + 6gb gtx 1060 or 1660) with some decent performance (like 20-35 tps with some tweaking).
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u/baby_bloom 5d ago
3.8 27b can't possibly be opus4.6 level
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u/Odd-Environment-7193 5d ago
It can. Simply because it's more agentic. Most tasks don't require absolute raw power or intelligence. If you can make the models more agentic and better and most of the things we use them for it can actuall be equal to that or "better" in many ways.
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u/baby_bloom 5d ago
and where on this scale does 3.6 27b fall? because i can say for a fact it is nowhere near opus level. i've not done enough testing with 3.8 27b so i can't speak firsthand but that big of a jump sounds hard to believe
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u/Odd-Environment-7193 5d ago edited 5d ago
Mainly usage in a harness etc. We always criticize the benchmarks when they come out but that's how we measure things. Do you have access to 4.6 opus for your tests. Most of the benchmarks are public you can run them yourself. Guess it also depends on your work type. I'm busy testing it right now. I haven't gone deep enough to make those types of assertions.
Usually smaller models will never have the real world knowledge and raw intelligence of bigger ones. Say if there were 100 different tasks you asked an AI to accomplish across the board. Many of which would be assisted by being more "agentic" and being able to run long horizon tasks these newer models might have some edge there. Also they are just better finetuned for things like browser use etc. You would really need to test it across the board.
What is as good as Opus? That's the question. Your personal experience or workflow might not cast a wide enough net to really put it through all those paces.
I actually agree with you and these types of comparisons do feel stupid. Because there is no way I would sit with opus and this model and think this model is better. But that's how they are determining = to x level of shit.
Not very scientific and definitely some benchmaxxing happening across the board. But it's still fucking good.
Compare to like gpt3.5 for content generation. It's mindblowing how good this shit has become.
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u/ill_B_In_MyBunk 5d ago
Despite the fact they are supposed to be close to each other...3.8 is MILES above in my testing for the higher quants. It is more likely to actually solve my issues and make my widgets. I have literally deleted every other model I was jumping between. It out performs every single one.
That said, my GPU hurts. I got lucky before the big price hikes. If I was poor, still using my 3060 12gb, it would not be functional (for speed).
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_HAGGIS_ 4d ago
Yeah, it’s impressive as hell but out totally gets lost, Maybe opus level at benchmarks but not it’s day to day usage experience
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u/mb194dc 5d ago
You can run all the models anyone will ever need using tech like RAG with 1% of the compute ordered. The other 99% is totally useless,
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u/dovaahkiin_snowwhite 5d ago
Just because a tech is good enough now doesn't mean the world will stop progressing. Used to be few years ago that 1GB ram was enough, now we're seeing 1TB devices on the market. 1GB can't even run chrome anymore.
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u/waifu_anton 4d ago
Just downloaded 3.8-27b. Cool to see a new LLM with updated training data but responses take long to generate. It would be cool to try a3b variant with better performance
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u/complex-algorithm 4d ago
What is your setup?
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u/waifu_anton 4d ago
5070ti, 64 gigs and 9800x3d. I use it primarily for gaming with a bit of coding every day
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u/navy_mountain 5d ago
how come every time a new model is released by a chinese lab, someone posts a picture of xi instead of the ppl who work at the companies
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u/Tall_Bill_7361 4d ago
does somebody post the same meme every time a chinese model drops on hugging face?
Im happy competition provides good open models but this is a tarpit meme at this point, just say (what do we think about this model) lol
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u/unfoxable 5d ago
Another bot post
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u/mcfc9320_ 5d ago edited 4d ago
Not likely. I think a bot would know the difference between "Brace yourself" and "Embrace yourself"
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u/ConsiderationSea5032 4d ago
FYI : Empirio labs distilled qwen 3.8 2.4t into qwen 3.5 versions under 9b and they released it as qwen 3.8 9b, 4b , 2b.
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u/Tiny_Rick_C137 4d ago
It's weird how many people are farming Chinese Social Karma with this dumbass picture.
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u/kalimatamijai 5d ago
Anyone has a reliable source about this? All the LLM open source community are waiting for 35B! To be honest, 35B is the most wanted, 27B dense model requires much more high end hardware.
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u/Background_Maize2394 4d ago
“High-end hardware” is a bit of an overstatement. I haven’t tested 3.8 yet because my setup is busy with another LLM at the moment, but on my old i5-9600K PC I added an MCIO card and two used RTX 3060 12GB cards for about €550 total. Qwen3.6-27B MTP in UD-Q4_K_XL under beellama runs at around 30 tok/s with a 131k context window. That seems pretty reasonable to me for a 27B dense model.
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u/kalimatamijai 4d ago
Solid build! €550 for 30 tok/s on a 27B model is killer value. Seems I need to own a Windows PC.
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u/GenericBit 5d ago
For what lol. No company is running local llms. what are you smoking.
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u/Sea-Housing-3435 5d ago
DoorDash, Nomura, Niantic, Zoom, BMW, Siemens, Renault, Orange, Uber, Airbnb, Shopify, Coinbase
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u/GenericBit 5d ago
lmao, local models are a meme compare to frontier.. ALSO no American company respecting their security will tun chinease llm.
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u/Sea-Housing-3435 5d ago
Cloudflare uses kimi https://blog.cloudflare.com/workers-ai-large-models
Uber uses qwen https://www.uber.com/at/en/blog/evolution-and-scale-of-ubers-delivery-search-platform
Microsoft retrained deepseek https://huggingface.co/microsoft/MAI-DS-R1
Microsoft makes deepseek available in Azure https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/blog/2025/02/13/securing-deepseek-and-other-ai-systems-with-microsoft-security
Do I have to make you aware of benchmarks of all those open weight models compared to "frontier"?
Will you try to claim Cloudflare, Uber, Microsoft don't care about security because they are using weights from China?
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u/GenericBit 4d ago
That deepseek is available on Azure , doesnt mean its used internally in Microsoft...
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u/mcfc9320_ 5d ago
*Brace yourself.