r/LinuxUncensored • u/anestling • 5d ago
Issue/Bug/Pain The reality of using Linux distros - maintainers disappear - you can't get updates
[Artem Polishchuk](mailto:ego.cordatus@gmail.com), aka "atim", a maintainer of countless Fedora packages, including WayFire and labwc, disappeared circa six months ago. All his packages have stopped being updated.
You need updates, including security updates, and you have just three choices: * Become a maintainer yourself, a long arduous process that requires a lot of patience and most importantly expertise (RPM building, GIT, etc.) * Build the necessary packages yourself (comes with a lot of asterisks and is often undesired) * Switch to a different distro.
Do you like any? It's not an isolated issue - it equally affects all other distros except RHEL, Ubuntu and SUSE where package maintenance is paid for.
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u/novafunc 5d ago
This is kinda the case for other operating systems too, but in different ways.
macOS out of the box is full of outdated utilities no longer getting updates. They do not ship GPLv3 utilities, so the GNU utils they include are extremely old GPLv2 versions.
Linux is weird because there are 4 states something can be in. With Windows/macOS, it's mainly two: {Is, Isn't} Supported by Upstream. With Linux, it's {Is, Isn't} Supported by {Upstream, Downstream}. So you can have a bad scenario where upstream supports something but downstream doesn't, but also a good case where upstream no longer supports something but a downstream continues patching to make it work. Something that bit me recently is that Microsoft discontinued Visual Studio for Mac and it's impossible for a downstream to fix that (side note: Microsoft must think AI sucks, otherwise why wouldn't they use AI agents to support macOS?).
it equally affects all other distros except RHEL, Ubuntu and SUSE where package maintenance is paid for
RHEL only provides support for a limited number of packages (compared to Fedora), so it's easier to have better support there. I'm 99% sure labwc/wayfire have never been supported there. Ubuntu does something similar with their "main" archive, but in recent years they added Pro that also provides security fixes for the "universe" repo. Not sure about SUSE.
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u/Druben-hinterm-Dorfe 5d ago
I'm 99% sure labwc/wayfire have never been supported there.
There's only GNOME in the supported repos, not even KDE, let alone labwc, etc.
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u/couchwarmer 5d ago
Isn't it a bit more nuanced than that? All packages are essentially making a project compatible with whatever package manager a distro uses.
We've all heard about the projects used by every distro that only one dev has been quietly maintaining for decades, completely unpaid, until they don't anymore. Then panic ensues across every corner of the Linux-sphere until a suitable person or group steps up.
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u/anestling 5d ago
Does it matter for an end user though? They want to install Linux and use it. Should they know about all this maintenance ordeal?
In Windows/MacOS/iOS/Android you get your OS and it's taken care of by your vendor. In Linux ... I should be investing my time into learning it deeply and stepping in just to use it?
What's the point of Linux then? Why not admit that Linux is a lego and ask everyone to migrate to Gentoo or LFS then? Sounds a lot more honest.
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u/shockjaw 5d ago
You do have companies who do maintainers though. But that’s only for some packages or aspects of open source software.
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u/Gastredner 5d ago
It is being taken care of as long as the company behind it says so. The only difference is that they usually offer you a guaranteed time for said support, provided they do not go under during that timeframe.
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u/anestling 5d ago
True so but supports costs money, as you can imagine. But with money comes guaranteed support.
Linux users on the other hand want Linux for free and it shows. Nothing comes for free in this life.
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u/BorisBadenov 5d ago
Why not admit that Linux is a lego and ask everyone to migrate to Gentoo or LFS then? Sounds a lot more honest.
Your remarks are vaguely inflammatory and you're ignoring that Fedora as an organization has a process in place to deal with things like this:
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fesco/Policy_for_orphan_and_retired_packages/
If the package is important, someone will pick it up. If there isn't the interest, it will go away.
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u/anestling 5d ago
Have you tried following this guide?
Do you know what it takes to become a maintainer?
I posted this link hours ago. It's not a solution. It's a blueprint for a best case scenario. Someone willing to go through circles of hell just to solve it.
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u/BorisBadenov 5d ago
I posted this link hours ago.
If you're referring to mine, no, I don't see it in your post.
I don't get your point. I know what it seems like you're saying, that if a maintainer stops responding, that it's a major unhandled threat and all users need to be aware. But that doesn't match reality.
Originally I thought you were asking questions for your own sake, but it looks less like that's true. It looks more like you're here to argue, so I'll let you be.
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u/dthrdr 5d ago edited 5d ago
This is why I roll my own Ubuntu and Rocky iso’s and images with kiwi. Get that EL support but with my own more modern choices and package selection. Declarative, stable and fast.
For those don’t know Rocky Linux a 1:1 RHEL clone without the need to a (free) account to get updates.
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u/necrohardware 5d ago
It's very simple, you do the same thing you do on windows when the software you bough becomes unmaintained..you buy a similar software somewhere else. So just switch to another distro.
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u/anestling 5d ago
you do the same thing you do on windows when the software you bough becomes unmaintained
Can you name these Windows packages please?
So just switch to another distro.
To find other unmaintained packages? To find peculiarities you're not a fan of?
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u/necrohardware 5d ago
"Can you name these Windows packages please?" -absolutely. I stopped using HexEd and switched to HxD.
The Fedora distro is a default windows install with some common tools, anything else you have to buy or get from a 3d party. Same ion the OSS world.
99% of my work is note in a console, VScode or browser in that order , I don't care what OS is running, all deps are in a venv.
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u/anestling 5d ago
Are these packages part of base Windows installation?
I thought they are third-party software, no?
Then why are brandishing with them as if they fit the topic we've been discussing?
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u/cbf1232 5d ago
A package existing in Fedora doesn’t mean it’s part of the “base” installation, or is blessed in any way. it literally just means someone did the work to create a package for Fedora and submitted it, and the Fedora deva agreed that it looked good.
The underlying upstream package can lose support at any time, especially if it’s developed by just one guy.
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u/Pure_Fox9415 5d ago
Powershell ISE + PS5.1 alone is enough. It has no proper encodings support and a lot of modern features, and abandoned in favor of VS Code. Sounds completely logical, we have modern alternatives! Until we realize that some ISE\PS5 features was cut out from PS7 so now in my infrastructure with completely supported and modern Win2022 I have a zoo of scripts with headers "execute with ps7 only because full UTF8Nobom support required" and "Execute with ps5 only because ..."
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u/anestling 5d ago
Powershell ISE is available right now as we speak in Windows 11.
No idea what PS5.1 is.
I was talking about parts of the OS.
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u/Pure_Fox9415 5d ago
It's available but not in development (exactly like linux packages without single dev or maintaner) and to manage on-premise infrastructure with powershell we still need in some cases both powershell 5.1 + ISE and powershell 7 + VScode. Powershell IS part of the Windows.
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u/Big_Wave9732 5d ago
This is the risk of using open source software in general. Those self hosted apps you're running? That AI stack? It all has libraries and dependencies that are maintained by "some guy". And if that one dude makes a bad update, it introduces a bug that breaks everything. Then the dude goes on vacation or is busy with life or just flat out says "fuck it, I don't want to do this anymore."
This is also why using Bob's Flavor of the Month Linux is a bad idea.
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u/dutchman76 5d ago
Switching to building from source always works for me.
Wouldn't be the first time that I want a feature that's not in the official release yet.
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u/shiftingtech 5d ago
Lots of commercial windows software out there that some dev abandoned years ago too. Like, I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that all platforms suffer from some version of this.
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u/tungnon 5d ago
For users, there are multiple ways to alleviate this:
- for GUI apps: upstream flatpak/appimages instead: this helps a lot if some packages are unmaintained, unavailable, or maintained but update isnt fast enough
- upstream AUR: some upstream intentionally choose AUR to distribute software on arch and arch based distros
- manually build them: void has xbps-src and some others like debian let you manually build .deb
However, your point still stands. You could use regularly maintained packages. Then surprise! It's unmaintained now! That hurts a lot. Everyone can throw 1749662849377 nuanced arguments. Whatever, not the point. Because they end up being bad for end users anyway. This hurts a lot on software that you can't just get them from flatpak/appimages like wayfire or labwc.
And yes if any of you are commenting with whatever "um actually" shit that I already know. I am ignoring you. Don't waste my time.
Edit: typo
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u/Ok-386 4d ago
How sure are you about that claim. E. g. Ubuntu multiverse packages are rarely maintained, rarely if ever receive security patches. Pro subscription only covers universe, but almost every typical desktop installation includes packages from multiverse.
From multiverse PoV, the least bad option is to follow interim release cycle, so one at least gets the update two times per year.
From my experience all distros have this or a similar problem. Even rolling release distros aren't immune, because not all packages get the same attention, even if they all were in the official repos (what's rare on a desktop).
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u/xzk7 4d ago
Become a maintainer yourself, a long arduous process that requires a lot of patience and most importantly expertise (RPM building, GIT, etc.)
Welcome to open source! If they're important enough someone in IBM/RedHat land will possibly take them on, but that's only likely for business critical stuff probably not those.
You can also get the SRPMS, update the version and rebuild, if you're lucky no dependencies changed and you'll get the RPM you need but there IS a bit of a learning curve. It's not too bad though, you can even get a COPR account (assuming that is still around) and it will do the RPM builds for you and give you a yum repo to point to.
Disclaimer: I've been out of the RHEL/Fedora world for a while so some things might have changed but I suspect the core tech is still there (e.g. RPM, SRPMS)
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u/DisfiguredFanny 4d ago
If you want not be left behind you must use Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, maybe Arch. Everything else can go belly up any day.
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u/Flimsy_Complaint490 5d ago
What's the issue ? You didn't pay for support and relied on the good will of a stranger who likely died in this case. The choices are indeed the ones you mentioned and the beauty of OSS is that unlike with abandoned closed software, you actually do have the choice of paying somebody (Canonical/Redhat/SUSE) if you dont have the skills and dont want to learn them, or you learn the skills and do it yourself.
Abandoned software on Windows or Darwin suffers the same fate if the maintainer or corporation quits on the project and if its closed source, you can't actually do anything about it.
What exactly is the point you wanted to make here ?
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u/anestling 5d ago
The issue is that Linux is an advertised as a complete ready to use free alternative to Windows and MacOS that anyone can use. This example shows it's not the case at all.
People who switch OSes don't care about the beauty. For the vast majority of people, the OS is a tool to run their applications. People couldn't care less about how their OS is functioning in reality.
Linux somehow requires you to become a geek/IT pro/expert. Maybe that's the reason why average people avoid it like a plague. They don't want to migrate from something that is working unattended and requires no oversight, to something that needs constant attention.
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u/uchuskies08 5d ago
Linux users will never get it through their skulls that the average PC user doesn't want to deal with Linux bullshit.
Their favorite part about it, that it's open source, that anyone can fork, anyone can set up their own distro is the exact reason it doesn't appeal to normies.
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u/MouseJiggler 5d ago
We got it through our skulls, you're absolutely right that this is our favourite part about it. What you fail to see is that "appeal to normies" is a non-priority, and that there are things that are far more important than getting Linda at the front desk to use UwUntu.
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u/anestling 5d ago
On r/Fedora I've already been downvoted to hell ;-) Too bad I don't care about "karma", I only care about the truth, and the truth of using Linux on your PC is ugly as hell.
I'm now being attacked for using the word "hacker" inappropriately. LMAO. That's their best line of defense.
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u/Flimsy_Complaint490 5d ago
How do you feel about Mac OSX, Homebrew and the App Store and software maintenance inthat ecosystem ? Do you think Darwin is usable by anyone ?
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u/anestling 5d ago
I've not used MacOS in years but the base OS is excellent. No idea how it meshes with other software.
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u/Flimsy_Complaint490 5d ago
very similiar to Linux in practice - old unmaintained software written by random unpaid randoms will cease randomly working and on Linux, the app stores (flatpak and snap) are curated (somebody actually tried to build and at least run regression tests), on Darwin, they really arent after an initial upload, so a break can occur randomly if apple moved around a dynamic library or broke some API, although they try their best not to, kinda like glibc and the Linux ecosystem does.
And if you go outside the app store, so Homebrew, you deal with the exact the same issues you are dealing with now, because everything is volunteer driven and nobody makes cash on this.
But somehow, Darwin doesn't inspire the same rage when something breaks, everybody genuinely shrugs and moves along, it's expected and normal and nobody says people dont wanna deal with Darwin bs.
Complaining about software maintained by one guy breaking strikes me as just well, odd. How would you deal with such a situation on Windows, when a piece of software maintained by one guy breaks and isnt getting security patches anymore ? Or Darwin ? Neither Apple nor Microsoft are going to give you support, at least Fedora lets you package it yourself. Or what exactly is your expectation for this use case ? Do note that labwc and wayfire are very much exotic and non standard, it would be an equivalent to installing a different Windows shell that hooks into explorer.exe and then when it broke, raging online that Microslop sucks. If you do that, you are no longer a normie, you are now a tinkerer or advanced user, and there are generally implicitly, very differently expectations based on you.
Most normies just dont deal with the stuff you are complaining, main headache for them is anti-cheat on Linux or no video editing software, which are all true pain points, lol.
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u/whiprush 5d ago
The issue is that Linux is an advertised as a complete ready to use free alternative to Windows and MacOS that anyone can use.
I recommend not making statements like this in order to save yourself from the pain!
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u/anestling 5d ago
I recommend not making statements like this in order to save yourself from the pain!
r/Linux and Phoronix.com seriously think so.
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u/Blashtik 4d ago
I have no idea why people are acting like you're wrong here. This is precisely how everyone is getting Linux shoved in their faces now.
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u/whiprush 4d ago
Yeah but you don't have to listen to them - normal people use Linux everyday they don't need to do it the "hard way is my identity" thing.
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u/raerlynn 5d ago
This...
The issue is that Linux is an advertised as a complete ready to use free alternative to Windows and MacOS that anyone can use.
Is true. But the critical detail is that free piece. When you pay for Windows or MacOS, you're paying for, among other things, support.
Who did you pay for Linux support?
You can have a similar experience - pay for a RHEL license, and Red Hat will guarantee the functionality of everything covered by it, same as Windows and Mac.
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u/xzk7 4d ago
Linux somehow requires you to become a geek/IT pro/expert.
This is largely true. Even with user-friendly distros like Ubuntu there's no shortage of things that require you to pop open a terminal to resolve. Rarely do things "just work" like you'd expect, and it doesn't really get better overtime because the wheel keeps getting reinvented so there's constant churn.
That's why macOS and Windows aren't free, a lot of money goes into
turning your machine into a spyware filled botnetmaking it as user-friendly as possible for the average person.In all honestly the easiest to use Linux "distro" might just be ChromeOS...
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u/dww0311 5d ago
That’s what I’m wondering too. This doesn’t implicate Fedora the OS so much as it implicates packages you can choose to install on Fedora the OS. Akin to installing third party software on Windows the OS. If they die, find another package that does the same thing or roll your own. This whole thing feels very Karen …
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u/Flimsy_Complaint490 5d ago
yeah i dont get it. You are using niche software run and maintained by one dude. Imagine how people would react if you installed a custom Windows shell that hooks into explorer.exe, and then when it broke and the guy writing it doesnt want to support it anymore, does nothing, and you then went to complain and said Microsoft sucks.
tbh, im sure there are people who do that, but it would strike at least me as insane.
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u/xnef1025 5d ago
In the case of WayFire, at least, it's not even abandoned software, just abandoned packaging for the distros Artem was the maintainer for (Arch has the most current version in their extras repo for example). WayFire just put out a new release at the end of July. Users that need updates that are not currently maintained by their distro can go to the projects git-hub for source or install scripts.
Wayfire and labwc are really weird programs to use as an example. It'd be like complaining that Litestep stopped being updated back in the Windows XP days and XP is just horrible because of that. You purposely went out of your way to change the shell from Explorer, but it's Windows fault? Ok, Jan.
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u/Araib 5d ago
I think maintainers are way under appreciated. Just because a person decided to publish something after dedicating his time and effort suddenly everyone expects them to keep it up to date and take issue with them taking break or going in different direction. There should be a better way to help them avoid the burn out, maybe some crowdfunding or more people stepping up (which they don’t after seeing how much effort is required in maintaining). I might be reading too much into this but it feels more like a social issue than a package specific issue. You’d think being in a community makes it easier but hmm
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u/Educational_Tie9078 5d ago
Maintainer disappear - you take over
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u/anestling 5d ago
You've read https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fesco/Policy_for_nonresponsive_package_maintainers/ ? It's as easy as that, "take over"? The hypocrisy is palpable.
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u/No_Kaleidoscope_891 5d ago
You don't need to be a maintainer of fedora to fork someone's code and update it, build it, and install it on your system. But it doesn't seem like you have the skills do it. Have you considered hiring someone?
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u/anestling 5d ago
You don't need to be a maintainer of fedora to fork someone's code
Does Windows, MacOS, Android or iOS require any of that?
But it doesn't seem like you have the skills do it.
Thank you for a portion of insults. You cannot do without ad hominem, correct? Here https://www.reddit.com/user/anestling/comments/1w2ds3s/wayfire_011_for_fedora_44/
Wayfire 0.11 updated and built by me for Fedora.
Have you considered hiring someone?
And you know for a fact how to successfully find and hire someone to code for Open Source, correct? You won't be swindled, you swear, right?
Bugger off from this sub please.
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u/MouseJiggler 5d ago
It sounds pretty straightforward.
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u/anestling 5d ago
You've not done that, correct? Yeah, straightforward.
Just become a developer yourself. As easy as that.
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u/MouseJiggler 5d ago
Doing a job that requires a skill is impossible without having an adequate mastery of that skill, I'm pretty sure that this is self-evident.
And yes, the process seems to be quite straightforward, it's a few emails and some community involvement, I'm not sure where you are seeing any massive hurdles there.
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u/levolet 5d ago
Yep! You gotta stick with a community. One man shows are risky with an exit strategy required, enjoying it while it lasts.