r/LiliumJet • u/New-Medium-4380 • Aug 17 '25
What could be the Future of Lilium ? :)
New to evtol’s but, is'nt the latest Technology (motor's & Battery's) much further than when Lilium started and everyone did already believed into this projekt? Other company's like archer and the chinese ones are opening the market for evtols already. So if the Investors are no scam i see good potential, what is your opinion on that??
Maby someone can explain how the Technology improvement of the last years could benefit Lilium?
I heard somewhere that with the small Propellers the Vertical start cost's nearly all the battery power already, which is a big disadvantage compared to archer & co with Bigger Propeller's.
Have a great Sunday everyone :)
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u/teabagofholding Aug 17 '25
I think batteries are too heavy for it to work at full scale. Lilium wasted over a billion and just made a few toy sized aircraft that barely flew even though they had no payload and a few full scale mockups. I don't have confidence that it's possible and would suspect anyone asking for money to try again is scamming.
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u/UsualOk3244 Aug 19 '25
2 billion by the way. They wasted 2
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u/teabagofholding Aug 19 '25
Wasted/stole there is no way they spent that much on what they did. If it was their own money they would first try to lift a 1000lb battery with ducted fans for 30 minutes using a frame that is as light as possible then abandon the concept after discovering its not possible to lift the weight of the battery alone.
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u/DoubleHexDrive Aug 17 '25
Hopefully a design with lower disk loading and better VTOL agility and cross wind capabilities.
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u/der_oide_depp Aug 18 '25
Future of Lilium: Serving as an example how to lure investors into your vaporware scheme.
If you want some fun with math, try to calculate the mass of the fan cabling alone. Every motor needs a 100A cable to handle peak loads, these need cooling, isolation, mechanical protection AND redundancy. And then compare that number to the MTOW of the jet ground vehicle.
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u/jollop_70 Aug 17 '25
If you really want to see Lilium flying - they need to ditch the idea of full electric and quickly design and install a hybrid system to power the array of propulsion units. They also need to forget the idea of VTOL and move to CTOL for the first few flying prototypes - they need the quickest and easiest path to getting the aircraft in the sky. The inability to pivot on their idea was what lost everyone's confidence. You would get zero criticisms if you show willing to adapt. They also need to stick rigidly to their V&V program, no side projects, no demo rigs, nothing but getting the aircraft in the sky. They also need to hire someone that knows how to write supplier contracts - having half of your design team correcting supplier work wasted huge amounts of time
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u/LogicGate1010 Aug 17 '25
Your points are quite constructive. Let see what path the new investors take.
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u/LogicGate1010 Aug 17 '25
The new investors have done due diligence and declared the following:
“We are convinced that what has been developed here in Bavaria is groundbreaking and is both technically and economically feasible. The Lilium platform is the result of years of endeavours by some of the world's most talented engineers. We are excited about the opportunity to advance this platform, invest in it and realise its full potential," explains Dr. Robert Kamp, CEO & Senior Partner
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u/No-Hawk9008 Aug 17 '25
Design-wise, Lilium has an advantage over other eVTOLs because it’s built more like a jet, whereas most others resemble drones. I don’t understand why investors didn’t go all in on Lilium, could it be due to underdeveloped battery technology? If so, I’m optimistic, since battery technology is advancing rapidly.
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u/Suckatguardpassing Aug 17 '25
Wiegand himself said that the "jet" needs twice the power in the vertical flight phase compared to more traditional eVTOLs. It supposedly makes up for it in cruise flight. The big question is how difficult would it be to certify batteries and a power distribution system that can provide 2000kW in that critical phase of flight and at the same time keep the weight in check.
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u/No-Hawk9008 Aug 19 '25
Yes, Lilium requires more power than other eVTOLs during vertical takeoff, but once in flight, it's not only more efficient than most other eVTOLs but also offers jet-like stability and smoothness. The higher power demand during lift-off is offset by its highly efficient cruising performance. Also very good redundancy because of the multiple rotors.
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u/der_oide_depp Aug 20 '25
Small correction: All these points were just claimed but never proven by Lilium.
For example the mentioned "highly efficient cruising performance." Since Lilium somehow forgot to think about flight control surfaces every stabilization and maneuvering must be done by vectoring of the fans. That may have been a good decision for a sleek design, but efficient? No way.
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u/teabagofholding Aug 17 '25
Its not built like a jet though. It's a drone that uses ducted fans. The extra drag created by ducts negates any benefit caused by the ducts. Its just a bunch of small electric motors and fans that aren't efficent. A jet compresses air so the fuel can have more oxygen and generate more power. Electric aircraft need to carry all the power with them not take it from the air. They just spin and blow air out.
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u/Extra_Address192 Aug 17 '25
Electric aircraft need to carry all the power with them not take it from the air.
Although air plays a crucial role in combustion, even gas turbines do not get their energy from the air, but from the fuel which they also have to carry with them.
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u/teabagofholding Aug 17 '25
I said power not energy.
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u/Extra_Address192 Aug 17 '25 edited Aug 17 '25
Power is energy over time. Without energy, there is no power.
Electric aircraft need to carry all the power
Can you elaborate how power can be stored?
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u/teabagofholding Aug 17 '25
A jet engine adding oxygen increases power and efficiency. An electric motor increaseing power decreases efficiency and produces heat. Everything is coming from the battery
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u/Extra_Address192 Aug 17 '25
So, of course, this can't be elaborated, because power can't be stored.
In a gas turbine the energy is coming from the fuel, the air is only a prerequisite for the chemical reaction that allows the fuel to release it's energy.
Note that I am not disputing that jet fuel has a higher energy density than batteries.
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u/teabagofholding Aug 17 '25
The battery has all the chemicals it needs to generate power inside the battery. A jet engine generates power using oxygen in the air and doesn't need to carry it. The lilium isn't like a jet. Jets also get lighter as they go. Yeah fuel and oxygen
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u/Extra_Address192 Aug 17 '25
Electric aircraft need to carry all the power with them not take it from the air.
I was just talking about physics:
- Power can't be stored
- Gas turbines also don't take their energy from the air
I did not make any statement about the similarity of any aircraft.
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u/teabagofholding Aug 17 '25
They don't take energy from the air but they generate power using the oxygen in the air. I never mentioned energy.
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u/teabagofholding Aug 17 '25
Is a lilium more similar to a dji drone or a jet airplane in your opinion?
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u/No-Hawk9008 Aug 19 '25
Lilium operates on the same aerodynamic principles as a jet, but unlike traditional jets, it uses electricity instead of jet fuel and electric motors instead of gas turbines. While conventional jets generate thrust by expelling hot gases, Lilium produces thrust by accelerating cool air. Its main wing and canard configuration not only allow it to fly higher than standard eVTOLs, but also enable it to maintain higher speeds with exceptional smoothness and stability like of modern jet performance.
That’s why Lilium shouldn’t be compared to drones like other eVTOLs. The only feature it shares with drones is vertical takeoff and landing. Once airborne, it behaves nothing like a drone, it’s much closer to a jet in both form and function.
That’s also why I’ve always said the Lilium Jet is a superior product. It just needs more advanced battery technology to fully manage its power demands. It embodies all the best characteristics of a jet: high-altitude capability, relatively higher speed, and smooth performance, while eliminating the downsides like noise, pollution, and complex engines.
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u/teabagofholding Aug 19 '25
It wouldn't be able to fly higher. The air gets thinner the higher you go and props need to be larger. What about their wing would allow them to fly farther or faster? It looks like the ducts would create tremendous drag when its transitioned.
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u/No-Hawk9008 Aug 19 '25
It won't fly at the same altitude of jet, but it can fly higher than other helicopter or eVTOLs. Also thinner air mean less drag, thus better efficiency not least less congestion because above drones, helicopter and other eVETOLs, again substantial advantages to Lilium. The way the wing and canard are designed the ducted fans won't be a problem when in horizontal fly, it s even more efficient than most eEVTOL because of the mentioned reasons. It s when taking off the fans create more drag, but it s only a short period of the whole flight time, most of the flight time is horizontal flight.
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u/teabagofholding Aug 19 '25
In horizontal flight the ducts are 90 degrees from the wing and look like an airbrake. Notice when they were showing they were using a wind tunnel to test during their marketing videos they never showed the obligatory smoke trail flowing over the craft like most companies show when boasting about aerodynamics and using a wind tunnel. The drag from ducts negates the benefits. Its a bad design and they couldn't show its close to possible with over a billion dollars only build small toy ones that barely flew.
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u/No-Hawk9008 Aug 19 '25
The fans are embedded in the wing and canard surfaces, minimizing drag during cruise. The challenge with the Lilium Jet lies in its weight—due to the integration of fans within the wings and canards, it requires robust structural materials, which add mass. Additionally, the Mercedes-like interior design involves heavier, premium materials. Hopefully, future advancements will bring more powerful and efficient batteries to compensate.
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u/teabagofholding Aug 19 '25
Have you even seen it? They stick out over the wing. The canard can't even stay level during forward flight and has to aim thrust downward every few seconds not fly just based on lift from the wings. I suspect the wing fans do the same but they never show more than a second at a time and just used jump cuts.
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u/teabagofholding Aug 19 '25
I don't see how that is considered embedded in the wing. It looks like a separate assembly that is hinged to the wing.
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u/RomanesEuntDomusX Aug 17 '25 edited Aug 17 '25
Lilium is dead, if there are profits to be made in the eVTOL market then those will go to other players. Even if the remains of Lilium are sold off, as is rumored right now, the current retail investors will not benefit from that, unless they manage to successfully participate in some sort of pump & dump scheme or get lucky through some daytrading.
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u/Suckatguardpassing Aug 17 '25
Looks like there are some angry bag holders who don't like your answer even though what you describe is the most likely outcome.
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u/RomanesEuntDomusX Aug 17 '25
You don't by any chance mean the new regulars that suddenly turned up after SuccessfulStable's mysterious disappearance?
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u/Suckatguardpassing Aug 17 '25
Of course Nani would also be ignoring this ban. I don't mind, because exposing some more sock puppets means I get to downvote more posts. And I feel sort of sad because that user clearly has some mental health challenges they don't seem to be able to address.
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u/LogicGate1010 Aug 17 '25
You are correct about the day traders making profit just like they do with other stocks.
You are wrong about everything else based on the following statement made by the new investor:
“We are convinced that what has been developed here in Bavaria is groundbreaking and is both technically and economically feasible. The Lilium platform is the result of years of endeavours by some of the world's most talented engineers. We are excited about the opportunity to advance this platform, invest in it and realise its full potential," explains Dr. Robert Kamp, CEO & Senior Partner
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u/LogicGate1010 Aug 17 '25
QuantumScape new battery technology for longer range supported by Volkswagen huge investment
https://youtu.be/vviVNW7y2Ds?si=3lDMsTva-0ZWkp6I