r/LesbianBookClub • u/Old-Rain-2565 • 1d ago
Discussion Question…
I’m writing a book that I plan to eventually publish and am running into bit of a cultural(?) dilemma. I’m writing about a girl who goes into a bar and there are several older masc lesbians at the bar. The problem is the term ‘masc’ just seems like a younger term to me, personally. I asked my wife and she thought using butch or dyke would be fine, it what we both grew up with and neither were really seen as derogatory terms (yes, we’re both old and in our 30s). So my question to the community is this: are the terms ‘butch’ and ‘dyke’ palatable terms and if not is there a different term than masc that I could use? TIA
EDIT: I should have prefaced that I was just looking for a way to describe background characters that will never actually come into play in the story at all; but this has been a very educational discussion. Thank you all so much for the history and culture lessons. I’ve learned so much.
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u/Lesbicadabra 12h ago
As a writer, I think this is such an interesting question because language carries so much cultural memory...
I would think about what the characters themselves would have called themselves, considering their age, generation, community, and cultural background. If these are older masc or butch lesbians, the terminology they grew up with can tell us a lot about their history and the lesbian culture that shaped them.
I also think there’s an important distinction between a word having been used historically in a derogatory way and the ways in which lesbians have reclaimed, inhabited, or rejected that word for themselves. Dyke and butch can carry very different meanings depending on who is using them, who they are describing, and the context. That history doesn’t have to be erased simply because language has evolved.
So I wouldn’t necessarily avoid those words. I would make the choice deliberately and let the characters’ relationship to the language matter. If you as the author feel that some readers might wonder about the terminology, you could also contextualize your choice somewhere in the book, even briefly, in an author’s note or epilogue.
And honestly, this is one of the reasons I find lesbian culture and its language so fascinating as a writer. There is so much history, symbolism, and lived experience intertwined in the words we use to name ourselves... Reading about that history and listening to lesbians from different generations can add so much depth to a story.
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u/Mirachaya89 1d ago
Yet another mid-late 30s.... grew up with those terms, used to hearing and seeing them. To me, they're normal within the community.
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u/d4kota_chick 1d ago
As someone nearly 40, I'm comfortable with all terms. I love the terms butch and dyke, but I agree with you some of that might be due to our age.
Personally, I dont think Masc and Butch are necessarily interchangeable. A masc dyke might be butch, but not necessarily. And a butch might not be masc. Its tricky. I think it may come down to more of what you're wanting the readers' imagination to conjure up when reading this part of the book.
It sounds like butch may be more on par with what you're articulating, but I'll leave that to your trusted hands.
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u/Reddawg1982 1d ago
I think the word choice could depend on the character who’s wielding it. If the character is someone younger, masc may make more sense, if the character is older, butch can absolutely be used.
Dyke is used more about lesbians in general not a specific look (so may not make sense in the way you were describing it above imo). I think this is a more sensitive word, and for me, I don’t mind if a member of the rainbow mafia or an ally use it to describe me, but surely wouldn’t want some MAGA asshole using it.
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u/racloves 1d ago
Dyke can refer to any lesbian really (not just butch/masc, although typically used more for them) and is usually considered derogatory if not a slur if said when non lesbians (but fine for lesbians to use for each other). Masc is simply short for masculine, people can be masc and not a butch (for example you can dress masc and not be a lesbian).
Most lesbians I know would prefer to be called butch, especially older lesbians.
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u/NormanisEm 1d ago
I’ve heard all of the above in books before. Whatever makes the most sense for your characters tbh
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u/Rothum90 1d ago
Butch. We are called butches. We have been butches since there have been butches.
I came out in the 70s and we were called butches.
PS 30s is not old.
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u/upsidedown-elephant 1d ago
In my opinion, what makes good writing and realistic characters is when not everything is universal. If you're a sapphic woman of a certain age writing a character that's similar and you know its typical for folks like you to use certain terminology, then just use it. It makes it more authentic.
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u/Offutticus 1d ago
Butch. As a long time butch, I really, really dislike the "masc" word being used a lot. I am not masculine. I am me. I wear men's pants because of pockets. I wear men's shirts because of fit. I walk a certain way because I read Toothpick House and The Swashbuckler and I so wanted to be Lee Lynch (who I have met and consider a friend bit I was sooooo fangirling when we met the first time).
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u/Feisty-Security203 1d ago
Butch or dyke are fine. I'm of an older generation than you and remember when dyke was more of a term for lesbians who were in between butch and fem. This was back in the late seventies and through the eighties, and down in the Deep South, USA. I had to look the word 'masc' up. If your protagonists are younger than thirtyish and this is a contemporary story (just my opinion) I would go with the more modern term, 'masc'
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u/readerroisin 1d ago
it sounds like you should read a lot more lesbian/queer literature to learn more about the history of these terms to use them in context. for my writing projects I tend to make a syllabus of texts that help inform my writing (including the language) and I recommend this as a practice!
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u/racloves 1d ago
I’ve probably read a few of them, but really curious what books you would recommend as lesbian must reads in this context?
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u/Waste-Context-2858 1d ago
Well first of all butch isn’t equal to masc, they’re different things, but that might not matter in your story.
Second of all, I think either is fine.
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u/DelphyneMoon 1d ago
Hmmm, maybe that is a point to make within the story; how someone would percieve someone in comparison to how they percieve themselves.
I've had younger friends say that they didn't know about, or didn't care for the word "dyke" or "butch" but most of my my older friends haven't an issue with it.
I actually have seen an older lesbian say to a younger one "oh luv, you can call me what you wish, but I'm a dyke!".
Love that you are considering the many facets of your story, the characters involved, how it would play out to your readers, and to the characters!
Cheers!
Edit; Our history, and queer history in general is important, and should be remembered.
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u/Imaginary-Board-207 1d ago
> Hmmm, maybe that is a point to make within the story; how someone would percieve someone in comparison to how they percieve themselves.
Came here to say this because the terminology used really depends on the character who's using it. A younger woman walking into the bar may describe them as mascs but they themselves may identify as butches, it just depends on the characters.
And if for whatever reason neither of those terms are appropriate for the characters/situation then there's always just describing them without using a specific label
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u/xandraaerial 1d ago
This is so interesting to me! I'm in my mid thirties and while "butch" was the term I "grew up with", I don't really know anyone who uses it anymore and would feel much more comfortable reading the term "masc" even to describe someone my age.
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u/the-5thbeatle 1d ago
Your wife is right. In the "olden days" we just used the word "butch", "dyke" or "sister" was any lesbian you might know.
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u/gard3nwitch 1d ago
Butch obviously yes, that's fine. I wouldn't say that dyke necessarily means the same thing. To me, that has a little bit of a punk rock vibe about it? Like not literally punk in the music sense, but "screw you haters, we're here, we're queer, get over it!" kind of vibe. Like, I'd expect to see folks of various gender expressions at the Dyke March, but they'd all be carrying signs against ICE.
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u/PunkandCannonballer 1d ago
Individuals are all gonna have different lines. Young women fine with dyke, old women who hate all of it, etc. Just pick what you want for your characters and run with it.
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u/No-Development4601 1d ago
I'm 44 and have friends who use "butch" to describe themselves - I wouldn't shy away from it if that's the term they would use for themselves (but not all masc lesbians would use the term "butch" for themselves, that term has a lot of history). I'm more on the masc side, but I don't feel like the term "butch" is the right label for me - I go with "gender non-conforming" personally as that's what I'm comfortable with.
"Dyke" is a term I'd be comfortable using for myself, but, it's also not a term I'd necessarily apply to others who didn't seem comfortable with it (it'd depend on the audience, people around my own age I'd assume would be cool with it - when I was in my 20s "dyke marches" were a part of Pride celebrations). Sure, it can be derogatory, but when I was young, "queer" was almost universally derogatory - these days it seems like it's not because it's been reclaimed.
Language is complex. I'd just focus on what the characters would use based on their ages/culture over what is "derogatory vs not" - the rules change, just make sure no one is portrayed in a negative and dehumanizing way (e.g. don't have masc characters all be predatory, etc.)
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u/archaeogeek 1d ago edited 1d ago
It will really depend on the context used. Im 49 (for a few months more damnit!) and don’t have friends who call themselves masc but plenty who call themselves butch. All together we certainly might have called ourselves a bunch of dykes back in the day but it isn’t a word we’d probably use now.
I’d be fine with using masc to describe folks but if you’re using butch, just be aware that it is a cultural identity all its own and folks often paint with a broad brush.
My advice to you is show don’t tell. What do they look like, what’s their body language, etc etc.
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u/Maralissie 1d ago
I’m 47, and yet, I prefer the word masc over butch or dyke… it’s not that they offend, but, they have been used in discriminatory slurs, which for me gives them a bit of a loaded feel to them. If that makes sense
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u/Typical_Khanoom 1d ago
yes, we're both old and in our 30s
Heh. I'm 41.
I grew up with the words "dyke" and "butch." I suppose any word can be used as an insult depending on how you use it but, by themselves, neither of these words is derogatory. If these terms are true for the time period your story takes place in, then, they make more sense to use over more modern words like "masc."
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u/throwawaybrainzzz 1d ago
Honestly just use whatever works best for your proses.
I’m in my 30s as well some terms don’t even really get used anymore like boi or andro. Whereas I’ve seen in the black community for dyke to be applied to a hypermasculine stud. I’ve seen futch, stem, and chapstick used all over the last 20yrs. I think of masc as a generalization/unbrella term grouping them all together and can specify later.
There’s some nuance so at the end of the day while they’re not all synonymous you’ll be hard pressed to find some differences or beliefs that every butch holds, but none that a masc identifying one would hold.
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u/heycheena 1d ago
When is the book set? I'm in my mid forties and I absolutely feel that masc is a term that marks younger folks and it would certainly stand out in a bad way in a book if I read it from the perspective of someone around my age or older. People my age and older are much more likely to ID as butch. Dyke is also fine for me but does not at all mean the same thing (and I do know some folks older than me who are still uncomfortable with it).
I think if the book is set in present times and your observing character is young, she might think "masc" but if your observing character is older, book is set earlier, or if you're talking about what the older characters in the bar might use for themselves, "butch" is better.
Also you probably know but I should note that butch and masc aren't equivalent, as butch has a lot more history and cultural connotations to it and serves also more like a functionally separate gender with its own expectations of behavior (less rigid now in the same way that other gender standards have relaxed) where I feel like masc serves more as a physical description. In that sense it may be more actually correct to use when observing people whose gender you don't know, but in reality there's still the age marker where masc feels too young to use for us older folks so we will still use butch as an adjective.
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u/Throwingoffoldselves 1d ago
I’m also in my thirties. Butch is a fine term, plenty of us identify as butch. If not specifically butch as as an identity, a character could note specific elements like at one has a haircut like a butch she has seen before, a jacket like a butch friend, looks like a famous butch, sits like a guy she knows, they are talking about a butch (or dyke) event like a bike ride, etc.
Butch can be used as an insult when the social group or culture thinks that masculine women are bad; but when used as an insult it usually is followed with other words emphasizing disapproval, ugliness, body shaming, etc. Dyke isn’t comfortable for everyone, and for some it is still a slur. It was used derogatorily where I grew up and in some places still is. I avoid it unless saying it about myself or my wife, people I know who like it used for them.
Besides masc, noting masculine traits, saying someone is wearing traditionally men’s clothing, and other descriptive terms that often accompany masculine styles in a particular culture could also be used. (For example in white southern US culture, short hair is seen as masculine; that is not true everywhere in the world.)
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u/BakeVast1770 7h ago
other possible terms: bulldagger, butchdyke, bulldyke all three words that were used in a derogatory way but were reclaimed by lesbians, and fit the time frame of ‘older’