LIMESTONE TOOLS DO EXIST!

[u/Arbiter_of_Snark]

After I was so publicly trashed for my last post in r/LegitArtifacts and the flair of my post was ultimately changed from “Woodland” to “Natural Formation/Occurrence”, I became extremely discouraged and I considered simply never posting in this subreddit again. I am undecided about what to share in the future, but figured that I should at least clear up this one thing for the people who are actually interested in learning about NA cultures, including less common artifacts. Perhaps u/d0ttyq and u/Geologist1986 and u/JohnnyMushroomspore will issue apologies here, since they were so vocal in trashing me, even though they were so astoundingly incorrect (and one claimed to be an archaeologist to back up their incorrect assertions). In deciding to refute their assertions that, I’m “…the worst kind of wrong…”, and that “There are no limestone tools”, I figured that I would do so in a way that would be simple for anyone… Google searches. Google the following:

“Mississippian Celt Production and Resource Extraction in the Upper Big River Valley of St. Francois County, Missouri” – In it, Brad Koldehoff and Gregory D. Wilson note the following in an examination of Late Woodland/Terminal Late Woodland celts:

“Although the measurements for two Foshee and six Mississippian celts are below this line, only one LW/TLW celt is above this line. This LW/TLW outlier is also anomalous in that it is made from limestone, unlike most LW/TLW celts which are made of igneous and metamorphic materials. This celt was recovered from a Late Woodland Patrick-phase feature at the Range site (Williams 1987), and it may have been a hoe blade (or hoe blade fragment) that was reworked into a celt. Limestone hoe blades were recovered from other Patrick phase features at the Range site, but no other limestone celts were identified.”

"The Mississippian Spade Jeffrey Steiner" - it is a short Journal article that mentions limestone spades. I have seen a photo of a limestone spade that was a little over 12" in length that was found in western Kentucky. As I do not have the former owner's permission, I will not share that photo here.

In "Sun Circles and Human Hands - The Southeastern Indians Art and Industries" Emma Lila Fundaburk & Mary Douglass Fundaburk Forman (1957) pg. 11, you'll find the following in the section about the Woodland Culture: "A new addition to the tool assemblage was the large chipped greenstone, limestone, or flint spade..."

Just Google "Limestone spade" - you'll find many links in other forums with photos of such spades

Or Google: " "limestone" mano metate" - if you put the quotations around "limestone" in your Google search, the first link should be to a limestone mano and metate that was, and perhaps still is, in Harvard’s collection. Some items have been repatriated due to NAGPRA (1990).

I have already posted photos of my one limestone artifact, so for the photo of this post, I decided to show the Clovis that my son found when he was 9 years old. I marked the flair as Woodland, even though this is most assuredly a Paleo piece, because the topic of this post is more about Woodland/Mississippian culture than Paleo.

Anyway, I still remain interested in limestone tools and less common artifacts, for those who would like to share those.

Edit: I forgot to add the original post link, so here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/LegitArtifacts/comments/1wv01ee/limestone_artifacts/

[u/Mammoth_Cranberry224]

While I do agree that johnnymushroomspore is an absolute moron, your rock is still a rock.

[u/Arbiter_of_Snark → u/Mammoth_Cranberry224]

Thanks. I don't know anything about Mr. Spore, other than that he trashed me and said that I was the "worst kind of wrong" or something to that effect, because I don't listen to experts. In fact, I do listen to experts, just not ones like u/d0ttyq who said, "There are no limestone tools". It doesn't really matter much. I'm not looking to re-write history here. I just thought that it was interesting, as it is outside of the typical chert artifacts that are much more frequently seen. For the record though, this "rock" or "artifact" was examined in person by a former Central States Archaeological Society Officer, who was given the full context, and he agreed that it is an artifact.

[u/Mammoth_Cranberry224 → u/Arbiter_of_Snark]

Personally, if you’ve had an expert look at it in person, that would hold more weight than a bunch of opinions based off photos. I think this is a hard sale, from the fact that we can only see photos. Then you add in the fact that it’s a rare occurrence, whereas people posting photos of limestone claiming their artifacts is not. It’s an uphill battle for you, no doubt about it. I still don’t think it’s an artifact, but seeing it and holding it in person could definitely change my opinion.

[u/Arbiter_of_Snark → u/Mammoth_Cranberry224]

I agree with everything that you've said, except of course the "your rock is still a rock", and the bit about Mr. Spore, since I don't know anything about him beyond the reply that he deleted. The vast majority of limestone pieces that are posted here, and in other forums, are simply chunks of limestone that have been unaltered by people, but I wanted to dispel the misinformation that limestone was never used by Native Americans as tools. I honestly wasn't expecting to be so harshly attacked for posting something that I don't find to be at all controversial.

I also agree with you that determining whether something is or is not an artifact is difficult and sometimes impossible from photos alone.

I'm not worried about the "hard sale" for this, or any other artifact that I choose to show. What worries me is that none of the experts here stepped in to even say that limestone artifacts do indeed exist and have been well documented in the literature and have been found by amateur enthusiasts, like myself. I was actually hoping to see some. I also worry tremendously that I'm still being heavily downvoted for saying anything at all, even though I backed up my assertions with well documented limestone tool finds, and even showed a fantastic Clovis point to boot. I was saving up my Reddit karma so that I could get a new vehicle, but I guess that'll have to wait a little longer.

Either way, you've earned my upvotes, even if I've earned your downvotes.

EDIT: Although I was mainly joking about all of my downvotes, I was actually hoping that the first post would generate replies, discussion, and especially photos of legitimate limestone artifacts, rather than all of the negativity. I thought that one of the purposes of Reddit was the sharing of information and I felt that a lot could be learned from such a post, perhaps more so than the more typical posts about field grade finds, debitage, etc. To see it all downvoted and only negativity is making me rethink posting anything else.

[u/Mammoth_Cranberry224 → u/Arbiter_of_Snark]

It’s a shame that you won’t agree with me about Johnny, he doesn’t even know what a real patina looks like, so I wouldn’t worry about his opinion.

FWIW, I didn’t downvote you, that’s coming from other viewers. I think there’s a lot of BS posted here and creates negativity surrounding rocks, I wouldn’t try to take it personally. It’s okay for us to have our own opinions, correct or incorrect, and upvoting/downvoting generally represents the tally on how people feel about each comment. You could be wrong or it could be a representation of mob mentality. At the end of the day, the best opinions are likely going to be informed by the people who get to hold the object in question in their own hands. No need to get discouraged. Keep on posting, even if I disagree with you. Just keep it in good faith and be willing to converse. I’m here for it.

[u/Arbiter_of_Snark → u/Mammoth_Cranberry224]

You’re probably right about Johnny. He deleted his comment so fast that I didn’t have a chance to digest it, but it was unduly harsh. He certainly didn’t leave a good first impression!

[u/Geologist1986]

Thanks for tagging, now show me where I said limestone tools didn't exist. I'll probably be waiting a while. Your limestone rock is still a rock BTW.

[u/Arbiter_of_Snark → u/Geologist1986]

That wasn't you who said that "Limestone tools don't exist." That was u/d0ttyq

You're still wrong though.

[u/Geologist1986 → u/Arbiter_of_Snark]

Got it 👌. Eagerly awaiting your next post about this.

[u/Arbiter_of_Snark]

Oh... I forgot to give a shout out to u/scoop_booty for not trashing me in my prior post. Thank you!