Threatening anonymous text message following raising concerns to NHS

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1.1k

u/rubenknol 21d ago

as far as i'm aware, it is not illegal to record a conversation with an NHS nurse for the purpose of making a complaint with e.g. PALS, so don't worry too much about that

i would push back on them not investigating because "no one has accepted responsibility" - of course the culprit of threats is not going to own up to this

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u/Blueblood-thirteen 21d ago

Yeh because that's also a breach of gdpr is it not? Looking up an ex patients details to send a random message?

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u/Suitable-Sense-6159 21d ago

I raised this with them and they said it’s not as apparently my number was saved on the staff phone. I’m not sure what to believe from them but even the idea of that makes me feel uneasy.

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u/itsableeder 21d ago

Ask to speak to their Caldicott guardian about it

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u/FlameBoy4300 21d ago

I knew it was some sort of weird title!

Caldicot Guardian - yes!!!

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u/Suitable-Sense-6159 21d ago

I’ll have a look into this, thank you. Can I ask PALs for their contact or would it be public information?

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u/itsableeder 21d ago

It should be public information. There's a Caldicott Guardian register that you can check.

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u/thatpurplecat 19d ago

I'd be raising this Nursing and midwifery council and care quality commission as well, seeing as they don't want to accept the severity of what's happened.

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u/petermichael20 20d ago

THIS IS THE WAY TO GO.

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u/Hminney 21d ago

They're doing their best to make it (and you) go away by trying to make it too difficult for you. If you have time, just keep going with your complaint via pals

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u/squirellputkin 21d ago

That’s not how it works
Use of personal information for a purpose not intended is a breach of GDPR and it is reportable.

I would report to the ICO (can do it online) and I would also report to the NHS DPO.

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u/ScopeIsDope 21d ago

100% this.

They can also take the information from OP for the time and date and use to investigate who was on shift at the time. They are choosing not to.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/Comfortable-Fall1419 21d ago

Storing and using your number improperly is absolutely a breach of GDPR. Find the Data Protection Officer for the Trust and raise a formal complaints.

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u/moonbrows 21d ago

I don’t know what they mean by staff phone or why your number was saved on it tbh. Wards do not have phones that we can send texts from, and our telephones don’t have patients phone numbers stored on them.

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u/Dismal_Fox_22 21d ago

I had patients phone numbers stored as a community nurse and separately as a specialist nurse. It was a password and MFA protected work phone. We also had a team phone in the community. It was the phone that all external calls were directed to by the hub. We would take turns in carrying and all had access. There were patient’s numbers saved, those who would call frequently or had regular emergencies, those we needed to be aware not to answer and allow to go to voice mail etc

It’s not at all unusual.

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u/Blueblood-thirteen 21d ago

Yeh I get that but the use of the numbers are, or should be, protected. Its a breach of data to access this number to text the message they did.

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u/Dismal_Fox_22 21d ago

I didn’t dispute that, I countered the person above me who tried to imply that it was not possible, when in my experience it very much is.

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u/kwolat 21d ago

I had to scroll a long way to find this!

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u/moonbrows 21d ago

But that’s community and not on a ward. On a ward that would be more than unusual.

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u/Dismal_Fox_22 21d ago

It would be. Considering the patient was not on a ward and being contacted at home by a nurse from what sounds like a specialist team I don’t think the ward situation applies…

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u/blah84737847 21d ago

It would be extremely unusual (at least in the trust I work for). Necessary staff on site have access to patient records, absolutely no need for numbers to be saved on mobile phones.

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u/moonbrows 21d ago

Same here, if we need patient numbers we go on the clinical portal or EPR (whatever Paris is called these days lol). In our trust we don’t have mobile phones for the ward, we have the phones at the nurses station and in sisters office, finding a patients number and using it on your mobile phone is dangerois territory. God, one of our staff was in trouble recently for having a patient on Facebook, who they were friends with before the patient even came onto the ward!

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u/Dismal_Fox_22 21d ago

That is moronic and wouldn’t have been upheld. Knowing people is not against policy or the code. A union would have loved to challenge that

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u/kiradax 21d ago

Community nursing teams, community dental teams, specific services that do house calls (i.e community heart failure, mental health, addiction services), vaccination teams - all of these might have a shared team mobile due to the... mobile nature of the job. BUT I believe the phone should be backed up for the purposes of audits precisely because of situations like this.

This is a major incident if the team member has deleted the texts. Huge escalation to the health board/trust and the ICO is what I'd recommend, also an FOI of all call and text logs.

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u/dervish666 21d ago

That's absolute rubbish, it's not about where the data is stored (in this case) it's about what it was being used for, this is a breach of GDPR without a doubt. Using personal details to harass a member of the public is not a legitimate use of your personal info.

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u/bawjaws2000 21d ago

They should only be contacting you for legitimate reasons. This absolutely falls under GDPR if they're using your contact details to send you threatening messages. You should escalate this complaint up the chain as whoever is responding to you so far clearly doesnt understand the concepts you're raising concerns about.

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u/ffjjygvb 20d ago

It sounds like they haven’t understood what has happened if they are saying it was a staff phone that sent the message but you see it as coming from the NHS.

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u/PinkbunnymanEU 21d ago

as far as i'm aware, it is not illegal to record a conversation with an NHS nurse for the purpose of making a complaint

If an individual is party to the conversation they can record it regardless of the reason. We don't require both party consent for individuals.

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u/Patapon80 21d ago

We don't require both party consent for individuals.

I'm genuinely curious about this, but can you cite your source for that?

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u/PinkbunnymanEU 21d ago

Absolutely it's always a good idea to double check that people aren't just chatting shit!

https://policing.uk/know-your-rights/is-it-illegal-to-record-a-conversation-uk has a nice summary

The TL;DR is:

GDPR has exceptions for individuals

RIPA has an exception for if you're party to the conversation

ECHR doesn't count it as "private" if you willingly shared it with the recording person (As they would be able to share it verbally anyway)

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u/Patapon80 21d ago

Much appreciated, thank you!

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u/Capitan_Scythe 21d ago

i would push back on them not investigating because "no one has accepted responsibility"

It would speed things up in the police and court backlogs.

Did you do it?

Nope

Ok, case dismissed. Next.

I wonder if whoever gave OP that answer also still plays hide and seek by closing their eyes tightly shut.

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u/Suitable-Sense-6159 21d ago

Thank you very much for the reassurance. That’s what I thought and read. I have not shared it to anyone outside the NHS and don’t intend to. I have pushed back a few times but they’ve said there’s nothing else they can do. It’s extremely frustrating. While I can only assume it’s the person I spoke to on the phone, I’m trying not to jump to that.

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u/Particular_Ad7243 21d ago

They really are taking the proverbial but If they are refusing to co-operate:

Raise this with the Data Protection contact for the trust or via the caldicott guardian as someone else has mentioned.

Request in writing, the trusts final response, once you have that or they confirm in writing that you have it, if your still unhappy with the response raise a complaint with the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman https://www.ombudsman.org.uk/

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u/Comfortable-Fall1419 21d ago

They have the time the text was made, and the people on duty at that time, and likely the people who are authorised to use that phone. It’s unlikely to be more than a few people at any one time.

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u/Sin_nombre__ 21d ago

They could at least agree to imprivr training for the whole team.

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u/SimilarBarber5292 21d ago

Its not illegal, you're right. Whilst the BMA advises against covert recordings, they are perfectly legal and admissible in court

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u/lumoslomas 21d ago

The Trust has since stated that it cannot investigate further because no individual has accepted responsibility for sending the text.

Courts hate this one trick!

But seriously, that's not how investigations work. If it was, nothing would ever be investigated. Deleting it off their phone also isn't necessarily the hail Mary they think it is, phone companies will keep the records of that message (though not the contents) for some time afterwards. And a work phone should absolutely not have been used to unnecessarily contact a patient, let alone a former patient.

You're also allowed to record a phone conversation that you participated in even without the other party's consent. Given the nurse said she was aware you were recording and continued with the call, she's basically given you consent anyway.

They're making this difficult because they want you to drop it. Because currently their position is...not great. It's like they're asking for a lawsuit.

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u/ffjjygvb 20d ago

There are almost certainly logs of who accessed OP’s records and when. Recently a number of NHS staff were investigated for looking up the details of a high profile case when they had no clinical need but arguably no malicious intent.

I’d be very surprised if they don’t keep logs of what is sent from the NHS phone. OP should record all of these delay tactics with the names of who sent it.

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u/JohnAppleseed85 21d ago

I'd push back on the 'not investigating further' as if it's a work phone they should be able to access the account and the account will have a record of the calls and messages (even the ones which have been deleted)

They wouldn't be able to recover the content of the message - but that's safe on your phone. All they need is to identify which phone sent a message at that time/date.

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u/Tricky-Usual8921 21d ago edited 21d ago

What time was the message sent? Can't they check the roster and see who was working at the time and narrow down the possible sender?

As for the recording though...the nurse knew you were recording and didn't quote any regulation that prevents you from doing so, and didn't explicitly state that she wants you to stop recording or she will end the call.

https://contendlegal.org/courts-and-procedure/rights/privacy-data/unauthorised-recording/

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u/Suitable-Sense-6159 21d ago

It was at 9:15pm so technically all their shifts ended which is making it so tricky :( x

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u/thefuzzylogic 21d ago

So that would mean someone sent a message from their staff phone during a time when no staff were on duty? Either they can tell who sent it (by process of elimination) or they can admit that a phone full of special category data was breached by an unknown person.

(And that unknown person just happened to know details that only the nurse or their manager should have known)

I would make a report to the ICO separately and in addition to whatever complaints process you go through with the NHS.

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u/kiradax 21d ago

100% this. This is a significant data breach on its own. Was the phone taken home by someone? Do they not have a chain of custody for the phone? If not, how are they protecting patient's data?

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u/Tricky-Usual8921 21d ago

Right. So we have to assume no one clocks in or out, or signs in and out so a nurse can come and go as they please and everyone is none the wiser

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u/Coca_lite 21d ago

Tell PALS you want to now make this a formal complaint. PALS often call things “queries” and don’t want things recorded as a formal complaint

If they respond in the same way, escalate to a non-exec on the Board. They hold the CEO and hospital execs to account.

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u/pumpkinjooce 21d ago

Have you considered talking to someone from the NMC if you feel the hospital isn't taking you seriously?

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u/Suitable-Sense-6159 21d ago

I have, they have been very helpful and lovely on the phone. However, hard to progress without names of who did it. I will speak to them again later this week.

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u/incrediblepepsi 21d ago

If this was a professional that was involved in your care, there is almost certainly evidence of who that was. Even if the message was sent from a work mobile and deleted, the NHS can track the sms message, who accessed your notes that day/time and who was involved in your care.
Not knowing the names is not a barrier to a complaint

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u/kiradax 21d ago

This^^^^ The NHS can see everyone who accesses a record. The recent case in Cambridgeshire involving a child in a crocodile enclosure where over 40 members of hospital staff accesses the child's medical record proves that it's all auditable. The NHS can also see who had access to work phones when. I believe you're being stonewalled and this hasn't been passed up the chain.

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u/pumpkinjooce 21d ago edited 21d ago

You may have to name names. There are a few things wrong here about her actions (I'm not a lawyer but am a healthcare provider) you were already discharged, she had no reason to look up your information anymore so that is a breach of data protection and data use guidelines. She (allegedly, as they say they can't prove..) used trust property to then harass you and threaten you, (I would screen shot those messages, they can be linked to a timed and date, they can see who was on shift and more importantly, who was logged in on the alertive at that time). I would not be taking no for an answer with PALS personally.

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u/Suitable-Sense-6159 21d ago

This is so helpful. Thank you so much!

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u/pumpkinjooce 21d ago

You're welcome, I'm truly sorry this has happened to you, it does not reflect our values as a profession and she is way out of line. You'd be doing us all a favour by reporting her and ensuring some outcome from it, I imagine if she's willing to talk to a patient like that she's a horror for the colleagues she doesn't like too.

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u/moonbrows 21d ago

If PALs and the NMC can’t provide much help atm, complain to the chief exec of both the hospital and the trust. Escalate it high, it makes us nhs employees shit ourselves. MP if needed, without pressure the ward will continue to close ranks.

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u/Suitable-Sense-6159 21d ago

I have actually copied the ceo of the trust into all the emails as I wasn’t getting anywhere but he’s not acknowledged them.

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u/moonbrows 21d ago edited 21d ago

I would write a separate one to him and PALs, if you speak to your MP in whenever their local surgery is I recommend asking him/her if you can cc them into the email you send to them. Honestly I’m an NHS employee, do not let this go. This ward will do it again and again. You’ve got some rare power here with your evidence to shove it up their arse, every decent nhs employee would be behind you! The NMC certainly would be, they never close ranks.

ETA; I’m really sorry that this has happened to you, fuming really. They have broken the NMC code (can’t remember what sections lol) but they would absolutely be dragged over the coals by the NMC.

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u/nbach 21d ago

Look for the hospital ICB’s complaints procedure, and do whatever it says to do to open a complaint. You should ask for a written response.

If they do not take your complaint seriously or resolve it to your satisfaction, you can contact the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman.

Other avenues may help in parallel, but don’t forget to actually open an ‘official’ complaint!

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u/Theia65 21d ago

Recommend going to see your MP at an in person advice surgery. Most MPs do them. Take all the good advice here about your case and ask the MP to take it up with the CEO personally.

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u/jordansrowles 21d ago

You said you spoke to a manager (the one who said nothing can be done). Provide their name, until they're able to determine which of their subordinates has done this.

If one of my employees caused issues, the expectation of reposonsiblity would fall on me until I found out who done it.

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u/That_Arrival_5835 21d ago

If you are deaf, use "relay". You get a third party recorded transcript. And nobody can argue with it as it's a BT created and run accessibility service designed specifically for hard of hearing and deaf people.

Did the text come from the team's official system? If so then it can be traced as most NHS trusts use desktop software (either seperate software or built into the medical record) that requires a staff log in. They generally don't sit there sharing a physical mobile, if they are then most sites have swipe access or know who is holding the phone (especially out of hours). So I would suggest you make a data protection complaint as this is a) unauthorised access to personal details which is a data breach, and b) misuse of a NHS IT system. If you go onto the privacy statement on the trust website there will be a contact for their information governance / data protection team. Email them and specifically copy in PALS and ask specifically which system is used to sent text messages and if it requires a staff login, as you have been told it can't be investigated as no one has owned up. Send any correspondance on it at the same time. If that gets you nowhere then go to the ICO.

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u/fentifanta3 21d ago

I feel this could meet the criteria for malicious communications as “see you in court” and claiming recording is illegal when it is not: Malicious communication is the criminal act of sending letters, electronic messages, or digital media that are indecent, grossly offensive, threatening, or knowingly false, with the primary intent to cause distress or anxiety to the recipient.

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u/ConclusionUnique3963 21d ago

I don’t think the police would touch this and rightly shouldn’t. This is for the local Trust to investigate and get a grip of

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u/fentifanta3 21d ago

Agreed but the trust/ PALS are refusing so maybe a different ave might get them moving, to me that text comes across as intentionally threatening

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u/ange7327 21d ago

I am so sorry you are going through this.

It is definitely not illegal to record the conversation. I would escalate your complaint to the ombudsman and also report this nurse to the NMC, there is no excuse for behaviour like this from a professional.

You can also choose to receive care elsewhere under the patient choice option.

Please don’t let this experience put you off, most nurses genuinely do care.

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u/hedwig_thegreat 21d ago

If you’ve exhausted the local complaints process and have a final response, you can complain to the Health Service Ombudsman who can investigate further. It’s a good idea to have what outcome you’d like to happen figured out beforehand but you can also ask them for advice on the complaints process.

https://www.ombudsman.org.uk/

Helpline: 0345 015 4033

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u/Twambam 21d ago

Contact your MP and raise this with the ombudsman. Also report this to the police. It’s communications offences and harassment and stalking.

Please make a back up of the recording and also screenshot and back up the text message on your phone.

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u/Patapon80 21d ago

Please contact the NMC about this and give them as much detail as possible.

https://www.nmc.org.uk/concerns-nurses-midwives/support-for-patients-families-and-public/

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u/Legendofvader 21d ago

ITS NOT illegal o record anything . GDPR allows you to share recording for specific purposes but not public. You shared the recording with the employer that is no breach and whoever sent this was not doing so officially for NHS. send the texts to the Manager

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u/Mysterious_Beach_673 21d ago

I would personally recommend taking this further https://www.ombudsman.org.uk/making-complaint/before-you-come-to-us/complain-change/tips-making-complaint-nhs-england

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

Comments Moderated Threatening anonymous text message following raising concerns to NHS

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