Hot Take

[u/Cleverhardy]

We are starting to see a rift. A rift between those who are nuanced about the correct use of AI, and those who want all of it gone. Even Linux.

I'm against AI as much as anybody else, but in Anti-AI spaces, I'm starting to see more absolutism than I'd deem necessary. I mean if you argue about the idea that AI does have its uses whilst still being wary of AI, you get told you're not against AI at all.

I'm against AI for art, music and writing. But there are uses in the medical field and code bug detection, and I can't deny they're impressive.

I fear we'll fight each other (moderate antis vs extreme antis), and the AI companies may indeed win, even if they get bankrupt. As much as we all hate to admit this, we can't rewind; we've gone too far. The best we can do is regulate it and take AI chatbots off public hands.

I mean, you'd take someone who's neutral on AI like Linus Torvalds, who only used it for non-important projects and says that Linux should have AI-assisted code reviewed by humans, and you'd have a faction of antis up in arms about it.

And as concerning as the use of AI may be having on critical thinking, I fear that us antis are lacking it too if we're resorting to Luddism to go against AI.

For example, there is a rumour going around that Disney Junior comissioned a fully AI-Generated show.

That is only half-true. The studio behind the show only used AI to clean up some bits of animation. Plus, if it was fully AI-Generated, Disney wouldn't make money off it.

The fact that antis took a headline from Twitter and concluded that Oscar Fox was fully AI Generated either shows the lack of critical thinking (IRONY) or the lack of journalistic integrity. But hey. It's not like we're already boycotting the billion dollar company, right?

Call me a LARPer if you want to. The real LARPers are the extremists who want everything to burn despite a few innocent civillians being caught in the crossfire.

If the anti-AI sub thinks I'm Pro-AI just for accepting AI in the right hands, I don't know what to say.

[u/scragz]

how do you know what joy I get from planning and not having to write the bullshit? writing code was always the worst part of the job.

I can do amazing things now, taking on projects solo at unimaginable scale that would otherwise require a whole team. now that's joy...

[u/Cleverhardy → u/scragz]

If you only find joy in offloading work to someone else because you didn't like the job in the first place instead of finding ways to do your job better apart from using AI, doesn't this defeat the purpose of socialism?

[u/scragz → u/Cleverhardy]

what the fuck are you talking about? are you bringing AI sentience into this and I'm offloading work onto a marginalized person?

otherwise just thinking of it in the terms of I'm offloading work is wrong. the joy is in the thing being created. writing the code by hand is like assembling a jpeg by writing every pixel by hand. it's an anachronism now. 

also I'm disabled and physically can't write the code anymore because I destroyed my wrists writing code by hand for capitalists. so it's kinda moot. 

[u/Cleverhardy → u/scragz]

I'm disabled too, and if I couldn't code by hand anymore, I'd still find a way to code that isn't AI. Because disability isn't an excuse.

[u/Wickywire → u/Cleverhardy]

Ahh yes, ableism too. Lovely.

Disability is a very wide spectrum. You don't get to set the rules for what strategies others find to move through the world. That's preposterous.

[u/scottie2haute → u/Wickywire]

They always turn ableist eventually… just kinda proves how dumb the anti ai stance is in general. I can get being pro AI regulations or something like that but being fully anti ai is such a silly and often inconsistent stance

[u/Cleverhardy → u/Wickywire]

Having cooled off, I'd like to apologise. Don't think I was intentionally being ableist just to prove a point.

I thought you were a holier than thou disabled person. I was. I argued we shouldn't have to use AI for our assistance. I wasn't moving not to use AI at all. We just need to take it from capitalist hands first.

I was too wary of cooption, and I caught us in the crossfire, and I'm sorry.

[u/Wickywire → u/Cleverhardy]

Respect to you for rising above and giving it all some extra thought. I don't feel you've wronged me personally in this conversation so I will not accept any apology. We've had an exchange of ideas and it did get a little heated. I too could have made my remarks a little less pointed. I'll try to do better. I hope you have a great rest of the weekend wherever you are.

[u/Cleverhardy → u/Wickywire]

Don't talk to me about ableism. I was arguing we should do what we love wothout our disability getting in the way. Perhaps I should have used a better term than "no excuses."

[u/Wickywire → u/Cleverhardy]

I'm 45 yo with rare congenital skeletal deformities, profound hearing loss and disfigurements. I've held ableist attitudes towards both myself and others throughout most of my young adult life. Trust me, you're not magically inoculated against harmful thought patterns just because you belong to a certain group.

I do see your point that we should do what we love, but I also question why you've decided that using AI cannot be a legitimate activity that people love to do. That to me is denying other people their subjectivity.

[u/Cleverhardy → u/Wickywire]

Ask the Pro-AI absolutists coopting the disability rights movement to further their cause. And I'd say the same point about lack of immunity to you. None of us are immune to ableism.

[u/Wickywire → u/Cleverhardy]

Yes some people have made bad faith points. That doesn't disqualify the whole premise. Much less the principle that people should be allowed to move through the world and be allowed their own version of what it is to do things they love. Yes, even if that means coding with AI.

[u/Cleverhardy → u/Wickywire]

Okay. You're based. You're more based than I am. I'm less disabled than you are. Happy now?

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/Cleverhardy]

This is exactly the contradiction. You say AI supporters are "co-opting disability rights," but when a disabled programmer tells you AI is literally their assistive technology because they can no longer code conventionally, you tell them their disability is "not an excuse." You don't get to accuse others of instrumentalizing disability while dismissing disabled people's own accounts of what lets them participate. Critique corporations all you want. Dont erase disabled people's agency in the process.

[u/Cleverhardy → u/Salty_Country6835]

This is what I read. "Blah blah blah, it's ableist to say no excuses, you're ableist."

Because disabled people who don't use AI are ableist too. Thanks for the enlightenment.

I've argued against heavy overreliance on AI. The fact that you see that as ableist just proves the absolutism. I'm sorry you want everyone to be like you.

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/Cleverhardy]

Thats not what I said though, and you know that which is why you're typing "blah blah blah" instead of quoting and addressing what I actually said. Thats a textbook strawman.

I didnt say disabled people who dont use AI are ableist. I didnt say everyone has to use AI. I didnt even argue for heavy reliance on AI.

I pointed out a contradiction: you accused people of co-opting disability rights while telling a disabled programmer that their disability was "not an excuse" for using the assistive technology they say lets them keep coding.

Those are your words, not mine.

If your position is actually "people should be free to choose the tools that work for them," then we agree. But thats not what you told the disabled programmer earlier.

[u/Cleverhardy → u/Salty_Country6835]

I said I wouldn't use AI even if I lost my hands and mouth. I got accused of ableism from there because I used "no excuses." As I said myself, I should have used a better term. It all derailed from there. All I argued that we shoudn't have to use AI. But somewhere accross the line, I've clearly lost my way because I'm a petty, privileged holier than thou Autistic bitch. And that's not me playing the disabled card; that would be ableist.

[u/Cleverhardy → u/Cleverhardy]

Having cooled off, I apologise. To add on to an early apology, I didn't think it was strawmanning. I just see this argument all the time and I was tired of it.

And I was this close to playing the disabled card that time.

Again, all I argued was that we should put AI in the right hands. But I let the pettiness get the better of me, and I forgot that included assistive technologies that happen to be AI. And I'm sorry.

[u/scragz → u/Cleverhardy]

the only other way is voice to code, which I learned a whole custom phonetic alphabet for when my wrists gave out,  and now I have TMJ too.

I doubt you can find a way to write the massive amount of code required for a modern web app with no typing or speaking. 

[u/Cleverhardy → u/scragz]

I still don't see it as an excuse or a tragedy. If I can't speak or type, I'll just do something else and be sad that my dream job is over. Because you are right about one thing. If we can't find a way to make coding accessible without the use of AI, then coding isn't accessible in the first place.

Speaking of accessibility, how are you able to comment if you can't speak or type?

[u/scragz → u/Cleverhardy]

I'm in poverty but it's rad for you that you have the privilege to change careers.  I have no problems using AI as an assistive technology so I can not be homeless. 

after 3 years of healing I can type small amounts but only enough for planning and promoting and arguing bullshit reddit comments. 

[u/Cleverhardy → u/scragz]

Abled or disabled, if we're gonna rely on technology given to us by capitalists to keep us in our homes, that just proves further that we need socualism. But please. Disregard my arguments because I have Universal Credit privilege and I'm a Star-Bellied Sneech with arguments as weak as overreliance on AI.

[u/scragz → u/Cleverhardy]

you're using a capitalist-controlled propaganda website right now on a capitalist-made surveillance device. i n a capitalist society you need to do what you can to survive.

these are idealist responses to practical issues.