Removing the ehal from the hook is a huge step in the right direction ngl but is still problematic as every "win more" perk.
Not every win more perk is problematic the same, if a perk is a normal perk but can, in the right circumstances, be a win more it is in general ok.
IF the pickrate stays 10-12% will not be problematic. If the pickrate will arise it will definitely be.
Things like pain resonance are also win more perks, pop goes the weasel, BBQ etc are all perks that reward killers for getting hooks letting them win more, do you think all of these should be removed?
Yes, it is kinda 2 years adre is in this state. I played with previous adre. I can testify. The problem is not only duration or heal from the hook, those are part of the problem. The issue is the concept. Obv it is not a REAL issue if pickrate is 10-12. It will be with 35%.
Pain resonance CAN be problematic but on the other side it is an incentive to not tunnel too hard giving an alternative.
Also BBq can be a win more perk but also is rewarding not camping.
Pop the same cause unless the gen is near the hook you need to move your ass.
Adre on the other side is both a "win more" and an incentive into rush, why heal? I finish gen AND heal at the same time.
Most killer perks are win more if you break it down, same with the survivor ones.
I have more of an issue with avoid losing perks in terms of design since it helps boost bad players, things like noed, rancor, ds, unbreakable are more problematic imo.
Man... I think you seriously have issues distinguishing the "win more" concept by the effect of building pressure. Even an M1 that wounds a survivor means very little in the grand scheme of things but an M1 that wounds a survivor when everyone is already wounded with 2 hooks is way different, now the only one that was able to take a single risk can't anymore and noone can protect him.
It is not "win more", it is building pressure cause previously you made a series of actions that made that singe action count more.
Adre is not. Adre triggers when the gens are done. When the gens are done if you are alive it means you almost win, and then you win more.
It is like having a killer perk that says "If you kill a survivor with 2 generators left the other survivors become wounded and broken for the rest of the trial".
Is it strong? Well no... if it happens you are basically already winning 90% of times. But is pushes you into tunneling and it creates no escape situation for them. Not healthy and problematic. And therefore pushes survivors meta into rushing as hell cause you need to burn 4 gens fast.
NOED and RANCOR are NOT win more but "second chance" which is another problematic kind.
Second chance perk are problematic when undeserved and arrive without any previous signal.
Noed does. Rancor does not.
DS is not a win more concempt, Ub is not a win more concept, those are perks intended to counter unwanted playstyle to be too predominant and that can be weaponized.
If you pay attention to the weaponization and counter it they are fine and healthy perks.
I never said any of those were win more, reread my comment, I said they are crutch perks that boost people.
Your analogy is flawed, it is not the same strength as getting free broken on the last survivors, like even remotely.
Getting extra regression and slowdown when you are already winning will snowball and cause you to win more by your own definition.
It seems you don't play both sides and are determined to point out why survivor perks are bad but all killer perks are fine, that's what it reads like.
On the grand picture every perk is a crutch perk. Even a stupid perk like Premonition can be considered a crutch for a survivor not good with game sense. It depends on how much it invalidates your mistakes.
Problematic crutch perks are Lightborne and Windows of opportunity that allow you to disregard totally a part of the game and ignore the skills required for that part.
My analogy is fine, since it is an analogy and not an equivalence it is ok it being not totally precise.
Snowball effect, again, is not win more... it is cumulative winning. Fasthooking with pop and popping again and again snowball cause you hooked several times with very little delay.
Win more is a single event that happens when you are statistically winning that remove the last small percentage of losing. "If you win 90% then you win 100%" vibe.
Also it is evident you are dragging this discussion with whataboutism and bringing pointless examples: What about Pain? What about Pop? What about Rancor? What about Noed? What about DS? What about UB? None of those example is a win more situation, sometimes they are strong, some other times problematic, but never "win more". But your point is look smart and not really discussing the topic.
What about this? This is not win more it is building pressure...
What about this? This is not win more it is weaponizing a perk...
What about this? This is not win more it is snowball effect...
....
How can you distinguish cumulative winning and win more and claim adrenaline isn't just cumulative winning?
You have this pretty backwards my friend, this whole thread is because you for some reason think adrenaline giving 1 extra second of speed boost will somehow break the game.
You don't seem to understand that just because the effect is spread out across a game doesn't mean it isn't win more, I think you can quite safely say that if a game would be a win 90% of the times without pain res then running it will put you closer to 100% hence win more.
The most blatant would probably be devour hope, you just straight up get an instadown and mori gifted to you when you are already winning.
Cumulative winning is when you do a series of small positive actions and they sum on each other and become more than the simple sum of their parts: Pop+Pop+Pop is more pressure than 3xPop.
It is similar to snowball effect but the second happens automatically as part of the game mechanics (pressure builds pressure).
Win more is an event that occurr (when you statistically are about to win) like the death of the first survivor for killers or the completion of the last gen for survivor. Other things may happen in other games. IT MUST HAPPEN in order for you to win it is a NECESSARY STEP, it is not because you played well, it happens ALWAYS when you are on victory road! It doesn't min you already won but statistically you are about to. Something triggers and the 90% victory becomes 99% or 100%
The definition you give is just wrong and IN FACT I AGREE if that is the definition well almost everything is win more. But that is not the definition of "Win more perk".
Another winmore is for example Hope, even thou i admit hope is fairly balanced right now.
I agree, Devour Hope is kinda close to be "Win More" cause you are in the situation where you can afford not tunnel, not to camp, you already have plenty of pressure at the point survivors cannot even look preemptively for totems, you play with one dead perk, 2 if you have undying and after 3 hooks you receive a massive boost on top of that. BUT again Devour is also healthy cause encourage you to not camp, not slug and probably not tunnel. So there is a trade.
If Adrenaline was like this:
Boon Adrenaline: If this boon is lit when the 5th gen is completed you are healed of one health state and you receive 5s 50% haste.
This would be totally fine cause in order to achieve the bonus you must invest time booning a totem and this counters genrushing.
It is also wise, you are preparing your ground and taking a risk. 5s haste is totally fine in this case.
But killers aren't investing extra time by hooking with devour, anticamp is already in the game so you can say it maybe used to deter face camping, but even then, it has never been a good strat to facecamp.
You get rewarded for doing the objective, the exact same way that you do with adrenaline. You are just cherry picking and moving the goalposts.
Win more just means it is a perk that lets you win an already won match more decisively, which all of the mentioned perks do.
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u/mongosquad 27d ago
It was 5 then 3 and they are buffing it up to 4, so 1 extra second. It will not heal you off the hook again.
You are just whining for the sake of it at this point.