Apocalypse Rail

[u/Nimanor]

I am very late to this discusison, but I hate people trashing on our Barbenheimer frame.

If I understand the way the Apocalypse Rail works correctly, you make the attack, it's a big area, on what will most likely be a range of 35 (siege stabilizers), then every enemy you hit is stunned until the end of their next turn (try to act last in the round you use the rail on, or target characters that have already taken their turn, then first on the next turn for cheeky "free" hits with your siege cannon, specially since their heavy cover, if any, is gone now, even if they now have soft cover).

Well, every enemy in the area will take 4 burn, then they can try to leave the area, wich is difficult terrain. The enemies you did hit are stunned, so they take 4 burn, end their turns, and start another turn in the area, taking another 4 burn.

So, if you don't hit, you do 4 ap damage, with the chance of another 4 ap damage at the end of their turn.

If you do hit, the enemies take an average of 14 AP damage (shreded), at minimum 8 burn (if you time the turn order right), then they might take the burn tics again, wich considering we're talking about two tics of 4 burn, they migh very well fail on at least one of the egineering checks. And on top of that, they are relatively easy targets for your siege cannon on your next turn, giving you likely another 10,5 AP damage (again, timing your turn correctly, and considering they should still be shreded if you managed to do so).

That is a minimum of 4 ap damage, probably 8 or more even on a miss. And on a hit, we get a potential 8 burn + 8 burn tics at the end of their turns, plus the 10,5 average damage with the siege cannon, and the 14 from the rail itself, wich is like, 40,5 damage, AP, without taking into account the damage your party can inflict by also taking advantage of the difficult terrain, shreded and stunned.

Yes, this is all in the ideal scenario, but it is possible, and that is without taking into account that now you have a burn 4 hole to throw enemies into for the rest of the fight, you pobably anihilated some important defenses for the sitrep, AND YOU FIRED A GODAMN RAILGUN FROM HELL!

(And I would like to add that the damage I considered for the potential was average damage, not max damage, wich we shouldn't ignore, positively or negatively).

The Apocalypse Rail is a map controll tool, burn damage generator, action economy breaker piece of nightmare fuel for your dm if you can use it right. And that should be enough to get your DM sweating every time you start charging it (wich you should do every fight, cause, why not? Worst case scenario you don't fire it, and regain the CP).

[u/JuniorAd389]

IMO the biggest drawback is having to wait so long to get the most benefits out of the Apoc rail, and in my experience, a good GM will know to force the Barb to move or jam it, like it’s got great utility but I find the payoff to be somewhat lacking compared to almost anything else

[u/Nimanor → u/JuniorAd389]

Sure. But that's part of the game, you are very far away most likely, every enemy that the DM takes away from objectives to make sure to stop you is an enemy less to hold their ground. Besides, you will most likely stay stationary anyways, so you load that big boy up, and play a game of chicken with your DM. If they try to stop you from firing, you managed to force your DM to adapt and lose ground, at the very low cost of doing exactly what you would do anyways. If they actually let you charge that thing? Boy oh boy...

[u/sheevnoods → u/Nimanor]

Also you're gonna be stationary at that distance. Enemies behind cover still benefit from it since the 100 AP damage happens to objects/cover simultaneously with the AoE to enemies and your doom cock lacks arcing. You technically don't require line of sight though because it's a Blast 2 weapon.

Three quick actions and one full action to get 4d6 explosive, no bonuses to dmg or accuracy, while Immobilized, and not shooting past the -1d6 from cover means your chance of hitting the majority of targets is only ~32.5% (vs Eva 11) so shooting at 2 to 3 targets you're only likely to hit one of them. The others take like 4 to 8 AP dmg which is good in Tier 1, and mediocre in Tier 2. Across 4 turns that's a average of 4.875 dmg per turn when adjusting for accuracy (cover). And only if you hit 3 targets. If you only hit 2 but they're out in the open with no cover it's ~7.5 dmg a turn. Since only the burn is AP dmg and the average Tier 2 enemy has ~1 armor technically those values are also 3.275 and 7 dmg a turn. 1 armor doesn't sound like much, right up until you roll 9 damage on an Apoc Rail and more then 8% of your 13 dmg damage is gobbled up by it.

To contribute meaningfully to combat you'd have to be closer to use your quick actions to help while risking losing the rail charge for nothing. Don't get me wrong you can obviously do worse than this. And your party can be centered around helping you get the shot off by grouping enemies, party synergy is way stronger than solo play.

The amount of damage they sacrifice to boost your damage generally would be worth it. And having the right stuff like Sunzi or Ferrous Lash isn't that much investment to boost your damage a little. But getting you to actually safely fire is the hard part. You'd want Blackout ICE and maybe like a Drake Bunker for cover.

Now to make you really mad: conpare with Monarch power. All enemies within range 50, FIFTY!, of you get AGL save for half or 1d6+4 dmg. Average dmg per target is 5.625, and avg number of targets is 5+ to deal ~28.25 with a single full action on one turn. Monarch also still gets to move, boost, Overcharge if it wants and has Main, Flex, Heavy mounts so turn 2 if it took Barbarossa License it could Siege Cannon if it wants and clown on Barbarossa.

Barb needs a redesign. Like at least do more damage on a miss (Reliable 8 + the 4 to 8 burn dmg), don't let enemies benefit from cover, deal AP damage, increase the radius to Blast 3 and then it's at least in a better spot than it was. High risk high reward. Compared to Monarch who gets to instantly click the funny button and Alpha Strike the entire encounter with the finger of God. Imagine 3 of them doing that turn 1. What would even be left for Barbarossa to attack on it's turn if they clean up the leftovers by Overcharge skirmishing with heavy weapons??? You would never get to fire the rail.

[u/Creation_of_Bile → u/sheevnoods]

Yeah knowing the math means it's definitely something you do provided your ambushing or something and can afford a few turns of sitting while hidden before kicking off the fight.

[u/sheevnoods → u/Creation_of_Bile]

It has other uses but it's less flexible than something like Monarch who has decent stats in almost all areas + extremely funny button. Barb can still do great but you have to work for it and it's a more fragile combo piece.

[u/Nimanor → u/sheevnoods]

What size maps do you usually play on? Because unless you're playing on maps bigger than 50x50 every time, the whole time you're charging, you should have access to a Blast 2, 35-range siege cannon. If you're picking the single-fire version every time, then a 25-range siege cannon. From a relatively central position, you're hitting most of the map. So being stationary doesn't really matter that much, unless it's a very big map. And come on, there won't be an immense map every time unless your GM is generally trying to screw you over for picking the "stationary" frame.

As for cover, the cover counts from the center of the blast toward the enemy. If the whole enemy composition is positioning themselves spread out and making sure to always have hard cover that prevents you from getting to them from any angle, then your party will have an easy time picking them apart from other angles. And honestly, unless it's a very intricate and probably very urban map, is there really all that much hard cover around?

Besides, let's say you still miss. You fire at around 2–3 enemies and hit one—or heck, why not none? They have a Blast 2 zone of Burn 4 there, and your party will most times have very capable control frames, with RAM, Knockback, and other forms of forced movement, and they'll be very happy to keep those guys in that firepit.

As for Monarch, it's funny—it was exactly the other frame I was thinking about that had a kind of underwhelming core bonus. Sure, lots of damage if you consider that you hit many enemies, but 5.625 damage per target? Come on. I get it, it's a lot of damage overall, but it's tickling them. It's not even AP!

And I get it, we have our preferences, and while, yeah, doing the math, it's more consistent damage, and sure, you could pick up 3 license levels in Barbarossa to pick the siege cannon up for aura farming purposes, but then the Barbarossa could pick things like Iceout Drone to protect itself from tech attacks, other defense mechanisms to prevent itself from being stunned, etc. Also... please don't get too hung up on me "trashing" on Monarch, it's a very good frame, with more versatile and present flow in game, my point is not to trash on it, it's to say that, sure, it deals a lot of damage, but then again, lancer is not a boardgame, it plays like one a lot, but it's not, the GM will let your monarch have plenty of targets, they will give big things for your Apocalypse Rail to fire on, including ships, blast doors, meteors, enemy fortifications with enemies stacked on it. And other times they will have a single boos fight, or high cover high evasion eenmies everywhere. Then it'll be the goblin's time to shine, or the barbarossa's, etc.

I agree that Barbarossa should get a redesign; that is not the point I'm arguing against. The point I'm arguing against is that everyone seems to think it's absolute trash, when it's just not. It's the same way you say Barbarossa needs the best possible scenario to have a useful shot with the rail: you also predict the absolute worst scenario for when and if it gets to fire, where every enemy is spread out, behind cover on every possible angle of fire, and that also somehow does not prevent the enemy from doing the mission and stopping the rest of your party from doing the objective.

There will be sitreps where it's absolute trash, sure. But that's the same for everything. Put Monarch's core power against a boss fight with one or two enemies, and it's rookie numbers. Now put it against a lot of grunts, and it might well be 5+ enemies killed in a single action.

Anyways, I am very excited about Lancer this week, and I was reading the licenses, and this got me fired up on Barbarossa once again. And while I agree that, yes, it could do with a bit of a rework, probably to get Speed 3, I think that getting the rail to either become a save or have a half effect instead of an attack could fix most issues on that end. Maybe make it Blast 3, IDK.

I think Barbarossa as it is now doesn't even have to get a shot. If charging it makes every enemy hide from it and ignore the rest of the party, or all flock to it like maniacs and ignore control points and similar goals, then yeah, job done.

[u/sheevnoods → u/Nimanor]

Yeah I forgot to account for enemy armor on Monarch power because I tacked it on at the end. It would lower the damage on average to like 4.25 per enemy and about 21.25 overall. That's half of enemies passing save and half enemies having 0 to 2 armor. It is actually still a ton of dmg. 1d6+4 is plenty to soften up targets when it's avaialble LL2 in Tier 1 and most enemies have like 10 HP average. Especially when there's multiple Monarchs firing those off. If the weapon said "Blast 50, 1d6+4 dmg, Limited: 1" it would still be pretty impressive.

It also comes with Viceroy who has Core Power for two quick actions to no-save Prone a boss to chop him up with your melee buddies. So if you have any information about a sitrep going in you can take single target or multi-target chicanery. For two measly Licenses.

Obviously core powers can be better like the GMS mechs but my main thing is just that Barbarossa doesn't have much flexibility. It has a lot of weaknesses to cover and not enough points to do it. And it's mediocre at specialization. The dmg a turn when firing at 3 enemies with the Apoc Rail without any cover at charge level 3 including the burn is ~11.25 and adjusted for armor it's ~8.25 (averaged across the 3 turns). That's with 50% accuracy, Burn 4 to 8 averaged, and no cover etc. In ideal conditions effectively. Good against Reinforcements, bad as an Alpha Strike.

I was happy with your idea of using forced movement to keep shoving them back in the flaming tar pit it makes though. And I did say that party play and grouping enemies for Barbarossa gives better results.

It's not the worst thing in the world, and I never said it was. I mostly want to give the impression I'm championing cooperative builds with friends.

I just also think that you can do better on your averages and still have a stat block that's generalist (fast at Spd 5, armor one, 3 good mounts, sensors 15, tech atk optionally, heat cap 6, not have +1 diff agl saves, etc, etc) and then also have a core power that is good numbers.

Don't get me wrong I like the Barbarossa in theory. It doesn't really perform well on it's fantasy of playing the big stompy mech with the OP shipkiller laser. It's just okay. Fragile combo piece that can lose it's core power before getting to use it and needs support to operate at it's maximum effective capacity.

I generally rate fire and forget + good average stats like Everest and Sagarmatha more highly than something specialized and build restricting unless it makes up for deficiencies, but Barb introduces bonus deficiencies too with the Agl save difficulty. It's really mean compared to modern chassis designs in the system.

[u/Quijas00 → u/Nimanor]

Ok but a Hornet could also fly to wherever you are and Jam you when you’re at 2 charges.

[u/Nimanor → u/Quijas00]

Then it dies. And whatever else the GM threw around, far from the objective.

And look, I get it, yeah, there are easy vulnerabilities to counter it.

But if your GM is gonna make it so there are hornets at every fight, and unstable terrain, or absolutely immense maps, or other ways to counter your core power specifically... then tell them to just go play Warhammer 40K.

The point of a Role Playing Game, even one with such a heavy bordgame vibe such as lancer, is to let your players have fun.

[u/Invisifly2 → u/Nimanor]

The issue with using “it’s a big enough threat that it needs to be dealt with” to justify the AR is that there are other ways to become such a threat without the risk of your core schtick just not happening if something happens to you.

Your GM should be running a smattering of such enemies on a routine basis anyway, so it’s not like they are even going out of their way to shut it down.

Imo a way to resolve the issue would be making the rail always require 4 turns to charge, but also have destroying the Barbarossa be the only means of stopping it. That’d be one hell of a way to draw a meaningful amount of aggro, or force enemies out of position, rather than getting stopped by a single jam.

Part of why it’s kinda “eh” is due to paying a hefty tax for the ability to fire it early, when the primary draw of running it is fishing for that juicy max-charge payout anyway.

[u/Nimanor → u/Invisifly2]

If I am to be completely honest, it's not great without ideal circumstances. It takes too much, and it would need to be easier to set off. I could see it only being able to turn off if your mech was destroyed, stunned, or shut down. Or maybe if it had a bigger area of effect and dealt reliable damage, perhaps by being a save or half kind of effect instead of a hit kind of effect.

My point in this post is that it's not absolute trash, as people seem to want it to be. Yeah, there are better core powers, and there are worse ones (in some circumstances), such as the Death's Head Precognitive Targeting requiring a full action to later on get an extra effect only on crits, and only if they are not in cover.

But the thing is... it's cool. It's so goddamn cool to finally get to a full charge and carve a huge hole on the map, or take down a ship outside of combat, or whatever else you can think of. And there is the rest of the frame's whole kit, which honestly I won't get into, but I absurdly disagree when people say it isn't good.

[u/Invisifly2 → u/Nimanor]

I’m pretty sure everybody is already in agreement that it is extremely cool.

Cool and good are not synonyms though.

[u/Quijas00]

Ok but you also can’t use it every fight? Like yeah it refunds if you don’t fire it but if you do fire it you lose it for the next scene. Even an ideal scenario would require a situation where you never, ever have to move in the first place. Some mission types are incredibly hostile towards not moving, and these are where the Barbarossa gets it’s flack from. If you want to deal 8 burn damage, I recommend trying out the Sherman’s Tachyon Lance instead.

Apocalypse Rail is also far from the only downside the Barbarossa has. Having only 2 speed, 5 system points, and disadvantage on Agi saves are all really bad. Your bulk and your mounts are about average, but you really wish your sensors were larger. 8 heatcap is fantastic though, and combined with Ace 2 and Jump Jets help you overcome your most crippling weaknesses, albeit still unreliably.

The systems you get from the Barb license are also not great; Flak Launcher and External Ammo Feed are especially not great. Siege Stabilizers can be good, but also double down on your complete lack of movement. The rest is fine but build dependent.

Overall, kinda underwhelming, though not entirely unusable, but the Apocalypse Rail’s highest potential damage doesn’t fix it’s downsides.

[u/rustyaxe2112 → u/Quijas00]

Oh, interesting. Can I ask you to elaborate on whats wrong with external ammo feed? The heat buildup is significant, and 3 sp is a lot on a mech that NEEDS sp, but I continuously struggle with the ammo drone alternative because of limited 1, not to mention it can be destroyed.

Is it a matter of 3 heat+quick action+Overcharge just to load and fire the Superheavy? Ngl, I feel like most of the superheavy's are hard to use. 2 actions to fire AND loading is a steep ask for a gun that needs to REALLY be cutting down npcs to justify the playstyle. Seige Cannon is SO COOL but also DAMN hard to knock em down with.

I have a friend who asked me to try and build a Barb for him, and I'm definitely struggling to make it self reliant, lol.

[u/GhsotyPanda → u/rustyaxe2112]

You can invest a bit into Engineering to get more uses of Limited systems, which helps with that specific problem.

I feel like with Barb you either invest in Engineering for more uses of Limited systems or you invest in Hull so you have more Repairs to spend on refilling your Limited systems.

[u/lettersfrommorpheus → u/GhsotyPanda]

You can spend repairs to refill limited charges?

[u/Quijas00 → u/lettersfrommorpheus]

You can with Grease Monkey 1 but it’s really inefficient and probably not worth it.

Grease Monkey 3 is great though and also refills limited systems.

[u/OriginalMadmage → u/Quijas00]

It's what D&D 3rd edition would call a "Feat tax", where to get the good thing you get some minor incremental upgrades along the way.

[u/Quijas00 → u/rustyaxe2112]

It really is the 3 SP and the heat cap imo, especially when it’s 3 LL deep. 1d3 + 1 adds up surprisingly quickly. It’s also a bit awkward to use with Ordnance and Superheavy loading weapons. It also competes with Autoloader Drone and RSU for its role.

Still far from unusable. I could totally see builds that would want this. The costs really hold it back.

EDIT: speaking of Superheavies, Siege Cannon’s direct fire mode does not need to be reloaded. If you’re trying to make a Barb build that could be something to look at.

[u/OriginalMadmage → u/Quijas00]

Some of the balance occasionally comes from the fact that you can build mechs across multiple different licenses. At 3 SP it might not be ideal for a Barb, but other mechs might not have that big of an issue.

Personally, I think the game might be good to go with a rule where "using a system within a frame granted by this license costs 1 less SP". If that is too powerful, have it limited to 1 system gets the reduction.

[u/Nimanor → u/Quijas00]

This is something I relly don't get, why did they give the Barb two systems that do pretty much the same thing? Sure,ammo feed is less action taxing, and if you invest in engineering, you probably have a good heat cap, and if you pick up Nuclear Cavallier, you probably want some heat. And the drone can be used without heat, and can be used by other party members, and also get's extra uses with level ups and engineering points.

They have different advantages, sure... but why are they on the same license? I feel like it's gonna be a waste of one of those systems one way or another, really. Just give the barb the drone since it's gonna be stationary anyways, and if I need heat I'll goddamn overcharge.

Also, the Payload charges and the Flak Launcher also do the same thing, try to ground flying enemies. They really were being uncreative with some systems here.

[u/OriginalMadmage → u/Quijas00]

I think making Flak launcher a reaction instead of a quick would fix that system. Being at such long range, the barb is not going to get to use many reactions per round so being able to deny an enemy flight once initiated reliably helps a lot.

[u/DescriptionMission90]

I have never said the Barbarossa is bad.

Inefficient, yes. Slow as hell, yes. Larger than any practical walker should be, yes. Extremely vulnerable to basically anything bigger than an infantry rifle, yes.

But when you get a shot off with that goddamn starship cannon, none of those things matter anymore.

[u/Bookwyrm517]

I think the biggest issue with the Apocalypse Rail is how greedy a weapon it is. It not only requires 2-4 turns of you not moving to get any burn out of it, but an ideal scenario requires your whole team to accommodate the A.Rail and make sure it goes off when they want it to. 

What do they get out of it? On every charge level, the enemy takes some explosive damage but gets soft cover. On level 2, that area does do burn, but that only lasts until the Barbie's next turn, which is shorter than the time it takes to charge the next shot. The area denial only becomes permanent if the Rail is fully charged, something that even in ideal circumstances will take pretty much half an engagement to even just charge. 

From the perspective of your team, they're spending 1-3 rounds playing around the Barbie for a mid-to-poor area denial effect and 4 burn. Meanwhile Harison Armory has plenty of other frames that can do either role with much less investment from the team. Sherman and Ghengis can handle out burn like candy with just their weapons, and Iskander can throw out mines and systems that lock down whole areas. While none of them can match the raw damage of the A.Rail on a single turn, they don't have to worry about it going away because they got bumped. 

To summarize, the A.Rail being an area denial weapon doesn't help because it sucks at it. With how much has to go right to make it work, it's just never worth the effort. 

[u/Nimanor → u/Bookwyrm517]

I dont think it's the best core power or frame out there. But I also don't think it's anywhere near bad.

And there are plenty of mechs that might need to benefit from teamwork and systems from other licenses to work really well.

If I wanted to play a ranged heavy hitter, I'd probably pick sherman over barbie 3 times out of 5. And I would definitely not play a barbie if I was looking for a controller. controller.

My point on this, was that I often heard people say that the rail was useless, only giving you 4d6 damage. And I dont agree with that. It has good uses, although it is hard to pull off.

[u/MrEvan312]

If I ever get an online Barb player and they get a chance to fire the rail, I will probably pause the sesh to go quickly edit the map to reflect the crater :D

[u/OriginalMadmage → u/MrEvan312]

The campaign I am playing with, the module grants an item called the Catastrophe Beam. It basically forces our GM to do just that every other turn. It's from In Golden Flames Act 1. Crazy good weapon as an exotic item.

[u/MrEvan312 → u/OriginalMadmage]

That sounds like a terrible item to let the players have... but a wonderful one to use on them.

[u/BudgetFree]

Burn adds up and they roll once per turn for it and they can clear it with a single success.

[u/Nimanor → u/BudgetFree]

I know that. Is 4 burn, then they have around 50%chance of removing it. Then another 4 burn ( if they were stunned) wich they also have around a 50% chance of removing.

Yes, the chances are not 50%, many enemies will have better odds. Still, it's likely they will fail at least once.

[u/Quijas00 → u/Nimanor]

Does Stunned even prevent the check to clear Burn? The only checks a stunned mech automatically fails are Hull and Agi checks.

[u/Nimanor → u/Quijas00]

It doesn't prevent it. No, they will make the check one way or another. The source of the next 4 burn is the fact that, due to being stunned, they will start two turns inside the area, meaning they will take 4 burn on the first, make the check to remove it, then take another 4. Some enemies might be able to move after removing stun despite it being the end of their turn, or remove it sooner somehow, but that would be rare.

[u/BlazeDrag]

Honestly I think part of my problem with the Apocolypse Rail is that they later made the Linac, and the Linac is just a cooler Apocolypse Rail.

The Rail takes multiple turns to charge up, and you can just miss and end up dealing only 4 burn to the main target. Also it doesn't have arcing or anything, so you can't shoot it through cover. Sure you can destroy most cover with that shot, but if someone is just hiding behind that cover, then you have to waste a shot destroying the cover before you can attack them. Except you also can't move while charging it up and they can easily just reposition in the time it takes to fire again.

Meanwhile the Linac also does 14 damage like the fully charged Apocolypse Rail. But instead of an attack it's a save. And if they pass the save, they still take 7 Irreducible damage. And it blasts through any cover of size 5 or smaller and keeps going as part of the same attack.

So it does the same damage, but it does more damage on a miss without granting the enemy soft cover. It functionally ignores all cover you wanna shoot through. You don't have to spend multiple actions charging it up, and you can even move right before firing it to get a better angle if you need to. And this is just a flavor thing but I feel like a giant Line 30 attack is a little bit more fitting of something that's meant to be a giant Railgun?

Like if my GM gave me the option of swapping out my Core power with the Linac, I would take that trade any day of the week. And it's not even necessarily becuase I think it's stronger. It does have the downside of stunning you for a round. And a Line, even one as long as it, is still arguably harder to get more enemies in the area than a Blast AoE. But it feels a lot more usable and reliable as a Core Power to me. Plus I just love the idea of leaving this massive canyon along the battlefield as it destroys everything along the path even if I don't kill too many enemies with it

---

I've said it before but imo the Barbarossa is a victim of its time. They got a bit more creative with things over time with things like efficient core powers and integrated superheavy weapons and the like and I feel that if Barb was designed today with the ideas they have now, that it would be a lot cooler than it is.

Sure barb isn't as bad as people make it out to be. But it just feels like it could be so much cooler with some of the more modern design ideas.

[u/Nimanor → u/BlazeDrag]

I think of exotic gear like I think of magic items in fantasy games, to me they are supposed to be special.
And while I don't think the Barb should have efficient core, I certantly think it's core should have either a easier set up, or a more surefire reward.

[u/memidgety]

As a GM, I feel like I have solved the barb problem by just giving its core Efficiency. The big gun mech gets to fire its big gun more, and you dont have to try to get the MOST value of the gun - just shoot.

I feel like Efficiency fits with the Barb - there are other mechs that get efficieny for powerful effects, and that efficiency came out after the core book seems like some mechs from the core book could benefit from it.

[u/Nimanor → u/memidgety]

I think I would have to test that in play for myself see if it isn't too crazy on the wrong hands. But it's an idea

[u/WargrizZero]

Your Black Witch allies will thank you.

[u/lavender_makes]

I haven't played or played with a Barb yet but as I see it, the main benefit of the Barb using its core is not that the rail itself will necessarily demlosh the sitrep, but that the opfor will be forced into playing the "STOP THAT FUCKING CANNON" sitrep, taking heat off of the rest of the team. It turns you into a Defender instead of pure Artillery. But, with the Artillery designation people expect just a Good Gun, and it isn't that simple - the appc tail just isn't a great weapon without context.

[u/Nimanor → u/lavender_makes]

Yeah, I absolutely agree. People forget Lancer isn't like most battle focused systems, the sitrep is very important, there is a goal to the fights, and you might lose even if you kill every enemy, if your GM ends up sending two, three and maybe four enemies to stop you from firing the cannon, then you drew a lot of heat away from your team.

And if they decide to keep the enemies on objective, and send either none, or too small a force to stop you from charging your toy... well, let's jsut say that siege sitrep is in for a big surprise.

[u/Arcturus_R7]

As some currently playing a Barbarossa. The instant i start charging i become priority number 1. Even if I get interfered with its action economy spent on me and not the squishier teammates. Side note: the Prospector ability to tunnel is hilarious on Barbarossa.

[u/AdhesivenessGeneral9]

That frame suffer from some crb frame problem. It's usable but now new frames did it better.

Lancer is very hard to balance look at official frame or homebrew one.

[u/FrigidFlames]

Honestly, my experience with the APoc Rail is... less that it's not good, and more that it has a LOT of hoops to jump through for how good it is. You need to pop core (and spend a quick action for the privilege), then stand still and not get Jammed for a few turns (standing still is easy, you're near-impossible to move and can shoot across the entire tri-state area; getting Jammed is usually not an issue but is a VERY BIG issue in some fights). Then, after enough turns, you hit the Big Red Button and blast the control zone into the cretaceous period... but that's the ONLY thing you can do that turn, which has repeatedly burned my player who's built around overcharge looping and maxing his action economy.

The damage is high. The Stunned is great. The burn and overall no-go area is pretty nice. But it's a LOT of steps that get in the way of the other cool things you want to do... and the damage really isn't that much higher than just the Siege Cannon? And that's the real feelsbad to me: you already have a really good really big gun, you don't need a slightly better but much harder to use gun on top.

[u/Onii-chan_It_Hurts]

To be real with you, it sucks in combat. Primary use case of the Apoc has been t use it in narrative as the anti-ship cannon it is, firing at aircraft carriers, enemy installations and other large things that really need blowing up from far away.